Anyone used S & W racing for cages? Options

[ledfoot2]

I talked to them and they have a 10 point DOM cage that would be NASA legal for 499 plus 160 for shipping. It is not complete. IT does not have petty bars for the door or some smaller bracing that I would add, but everything is notched and ready to go.

Any thoughts?

[CJ-TA]

I talked to them and they have a 10 point DOM cage that would be NASA legal for 499 plus 160 for shipping. It is not complete. IT does not have petty bars for the door or some smaller bracing that I would add, but everything is notched and ready to go.

Any thoughts?

I'm taking mine to valkyrie next weekend for a CMC cage.. nascar bars, cutting and fabbing the doors, seat mount, lexan window, fuel cell + paint the inside....

I can take yours with me if you'd like (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[ledfoot2]

I don't have the unlimited funds and fancy trailer like you, so I have to try to get by on the cheap. How much were they going to charge for the cage? Are you aiming for AI or CMC?

[CJ-TA]

$4500 for everything...

Don't give me that crap about the trailer... lol.

Aiming for CMC.. *huge* change that I'm moving to Dallas soon... I can run with those guys...

The way I understand it... if I have a CMC legal cage, I can run AI... not necessarily the other way around...

[trackbird]

I put an S&W kit in my '89 formula. Yes, it's pre notched, no, it's not notched in the right places. I wound up cutting down and renotching almost everything in my kit. They are decent cages, but they do not fit terribly well (the A pillar area is the problem). If you can use everything else, go for it, but I really had issues with the A pillar fittment in my car.

[JaredT]

I know a guy who built a tube frame car with S&W parts. He had a few issues here and there. I think in one or two spots they screwed up the blueprints based on the parts he told them he was using, but overall I think he was happy with the results & price. He had to rework a few parts and it wasn't perfect as Trackbird mentioned. This was a 4th gen Camaro being built for drag duties FWIW.

-jt

[Blainefab]

$4500 for everything...

Don't give me that crap about the trailer... lol.

Aiming for CMC.. *huge* change that I'm moving to Dallas soon... I can run with those guys...

The way I understand it... if I have a CMC legal cage, I can run AI... not necessarily the other way around...

Chris - no Lexan in CMC. Glass is cheap anyway. Make sure they understand the CMC llimitations on cage to chassis connections.

[GlennCMC70]

and being a LS1 car, its CMC2 for you.

[ledfoot2]

Thanks for the info guys. If I had a good local cage builder here in Corpus it would be different. I had a circle track bar builder do my Corvette cage, but he said the next one would cost me becuase he underbid that one, so I am trying to make it work.

You CMC guys better check Chris's motor. I ran a bunch with him in PCA and he has an awesome motor somewhere around there that he used to run. He is a good guy and will be good in CMC.

I am aiming for AI myself. I need to be able to still run with the PCA group here and not catch too much flak.

[CJ-TA]

$4500 for everything...

Don't give me that crap about the trailer... lol.

Aiming for CMC.. *huge* change that I'm moving to Dallas soon... I can run with those guys...

The way I understand it... if I have a CMC legal cage, I can run AI... not necessarily the other way around...

Chris - no Lexan in CMC. Glass is cheap anyway. Make sure they understand the CMC llimitations on cage to chassis connections.

Doh! Guess I can save $600 on the lexan install...

He has the rule book... I've asked him to follow it to the letter and to document everything for me.

And yes, I know CMC2 (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

The guy built a CMC cage for Misty Cain - so it won't be his first CMC cage. Maybe one of you know her, and have seen her cage.

I don't expect to run CMC... but, if I have the cage (and the cash) for it, I can... I don't have much intent to go beyond DE's and possibly AI for now. Basically, I can/want to have multiple directions with the car for the future based on the cage.

Am I missing the mark on wanting CMC legal cage to do this?

/hijack

This post has been edited by CJ-TA: May 2 2008, 02:43 AM

[GlennCMC70]

Misty's car is an AI car. i don't know if its CMC legal.
a well built CMC cage is a perfect foundation for an AI car.

[mitchntx]

Chris, while you have given your builder the rule book and told him to follow it to the letter, you will be the one cryin' the blues if that cage isn't legal for class, not the builder. So, you will be out the cashola for the cage build AND not have a car you can race in.

And forgive me, but it doesn't appear you've read the class rules too closely either.

This isn't Saturday night, run what you brung racing. The rules are written for a specific purpose ... to make sure it boils down to driver and not a driver's bank account.

I highly recommend you get in touch with a director, arrange a meeting, go over plans and then proceed. You very well could be headed down a path you don't even know you are taking.

[CJ-TA]

Mitch... You are right.. I haven't gone over the rule book in it's entirety yet. Some of it is basic, some of it is honestly above my head. My current issue is.. I'm not certain on what I want to do, I just have an immediate need to be safe(er). The goal is CMC (cage) compliance since it appears to me that if I can meet CMC, I can do AI/AIX.

It's not about the bank account.. if I had it, Alan would have had my car already.

Are there any CMC/AI/AIX 'safety' people in the houston area? It would be awesome if I could get someone to show up at my builder the day I drop off the car and the bunch of us can have a chat. I'm stuck 350+ miles away and can't ask questions while this guy is doing his thing.

You have a PM... maybe I should take my car to someone who *knows* the rules (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

This post has been edited by CJ-TA: May 2 2008, 04:04 AM

[mitchntx]

There are 2 guys currently in the greater Houston area. One is about to move to beaumont, though.

Al Fernandez is a great guy, even though he is a Kal-ee-forn-yun. He posts under CMC#5 here.

I will point him to this thread and let you 2 figure the logistics.

[00 Trans Ram]

Well, this will probably be taboo to say on this board. But, here's what I did.

SCCA and NASA rules stipulate that, for almost any class our cars will run in (GT, AS, AI, IT under 3000lbs) you can use a cage made from 1.75x.120, 1.75x.095, 1.625x.120, or 1.5x.120 tubing. CMC says you must use 1.75x.120.

I will never run CMC, so I built mine to the other specs. But, like you, I didn't have the money to send mine to a cage builder and have a cage custom made. So, I went to Jegs and ordered a 10-pt cage for $225. It's a drage race cage, so it's 1.625x.134.

Being a drag race cage, it's designed a tad different than what we need. The main difference is no diagonal brace in included. But, it's easy to buy a couple of extra tubes of straight pipe from a race shop in Houston next time you're up there (or there may be a place locally).

When you install the cage yourself (well, I had a friend help me - he welded, I fetched beer and held everything), you can make a lot of it custom fit what you need.

Basically, I spent $225 on the cage, an extra $50 on tubing, $50 on replacing his welding supplies, and $25 on beer. For $350, I have a 100% SCCA/NASA legal roll cage.

When doing the research, I found that just the cage from a place that sells SCCA-legal (1.75x.120) cages is about $600 and more. And, I was quoted over $1000 by both places that I asked to do it professionally.

The downside is that my cage is a tad more instrusive than a custom cage. I've got about 1" of clearance between my helmet and the top halo bar on the side. Also, the cage is no where near "tucked" into the sides of the interior of tha car. But, even though the main hoop is 4" away from the sides of the car, our cars are big enough to where it doesn't really matter (it's not like we're driving Miatas).

I guess my advice is - if you can afford it, get a pro to do it (you WON'T be sorry - some of the cages on this board belong in a museum). But, if money is tight, do it yourself.

[GlennCMC70]

Well, this will probably be taboo to say on this board. But, here's what I did.

SCCA and NASA rules stipulate that, for almost any class our cars will run in (GT, AS, AI, IT under 3000lbs) you can use a cage made from 1.75x.120, 1.75x.095, 1.625x.120, or 1.5x.120 tubing. CMC says you must use 1.75x.120.

I will never run CMC, so I built mine to the other specs. But, like you, I didn't have the money to send mine to a cage builder and have a cage custom made. So, I went to Jegs and ordered a 10-pt cage for $225. It's a drage race cage, so it's 1.625x.134.

Being a drag race cage, it's designed a tad different than what we need. The main difference is no diagonal brace in included. But, it's easy to buy a couple of extra tubes of straight pipe from a race shop in Houston next time you're up there (or there may be a place locally).

When you install the cage yourself (well, I had a friend help me - he welded, I fetched beer and held everything), you can make a lot of it custom fit what you need.

Basically, I spent $225 on the cage, an extra $50 on tubing, $50 on replacing his welding supplies, and $25 on beer. For $350, I have a 100% SCCA/NASA legal roll cage.

When doing the research, I found that just the cage from a place that sells SCCA-legal (1.75x.120) cages is about $600 and more. And, I was quoted over $1000 by both places that I asked to do it professionally.

The downside is that my cage is a tad more instrusive than a custom cage. I've got about 1" of clearance between my helmet and the top halo bar on the side. Also, the cage is no where near "tucked" into the sides of the interior of tha car. But, even though the main hoop is 4" away from the sides of the car, our cars are big enough to where it doesn't really matter (it's not like we're driving Miatas).

I guess my advice is - if you can afford it, get a pro to do it (you WON'T be sorry - some of the cages on this board belong in a museum). But, if money is tight, do it yourself.

i hate to be the one to tell you, but your cage isnt likely SCCA or NASA legal. for that price on a 10pt cage my bet is you got ERW tube and not the required DOM (seamless) tube. this fact alone makes your cage not legal, regardless of the OD or wall thickness. DOM tube is around $5 per foot. that only gets you 45ft for $225. it takes at least 70ft to make a SCCA/NASA legal cage.

[StanIROCZ]

Don't forget that steel prices have changed a lot in recent years so he could have got DOM for that price depending how long ago that was. Also, I'm not sure that that a tech inspector could see the difference between an ERW and a DOM tube after it is painted. Even when it isn't painted it is very hard to tell. On some older ERW tubes that I have see you can visually see a seem on the outside and a weld protrude in the ID. All the ERW that I have bought at the local metal shop has the weld scuffed off and besides there being a dark line on the tube you couldn't tell where it was welded (at least with the eye). And DOM is an ERW tube before it is Drawn Over a Mandrell. You can see a dark line where a DOM tube was welded.

If you look at published info on strengh of ERW vs DOM it shows that the DOM is stronger. Contrary to that I've tested ERW and DOM driveshafts and there wasn't any real difference in strength. ERW might have even performed slightly better, I can't remember. But it was close none-the-less.

I could bore you with more detail but I think sanctioning bodies give ERW a bad wrap - at least for the modern steel that I have worked with. So if you do have an ERW tube, I wouldn't worry about it too much unless you really do have a visual seam that tech inspectors can see.

This post has been edited by StanIROCZ: May 2 2008, 04:52 PM

[GlennCMC70]

they are called inspection holes for a reason. they insert a length of stiff wire or rod and look/feel for the seam on the inside.

[trackbird]

i hate to be the one to tell you, but your cage isnt likely SCCA or NASA legal. for that price on a 10pt cage my bet is you got ERW tube and not the required DOM (seamless) tube. this fact alone makes your cage not legal, regardless of the OD or wall thickness. DOM tube is around $5 per foot. that only gets you 45ft for $225. it takes at least 70ft to make a SCCA/NASA legal cage.

Jegs cages are ERW. I was going to say that same thing, but Glenn beat me to it. Sadly, that car probably isn't legal for anything (per the DOM requirements in most rulebooks). That really sucks. Racerdad916 got caught on that one as well, and his cage is mostly installed. You're not the first, and you won't be the last.

[StanIROCZ]

they are called inspection holes for a reason. they insert a length of stiff wire or rod and look/feel for the seam on the inside.

But like I was saying, some of the ERW that I've seen doesn't have a visible seam from the inside or outside. The weld gets scuffed off and you can't see or feel anything but a black line. If thats the case no one would ever know.

This post has been edited by StanIROCZ: May 2 2008, 08:51 PM

[Blainefab]

they are called inspection holes for a reason. they insert a length of stiff wire or rod and look/feel for the seam on the inside.

But like I was saying, some of the ERW that I've seen doesn't have a visible seam from the inside or outside. The weld gets scuffed off and you can't see or feel anything but a black line. If thats the case no one would ever know.

Ya, you could try to get your supplier to select tubing that doesn't have a ridge on the inside, and buff it smooth on the outside, and still get nailed by an ultrasonic thickness tester that exposes the inconsistent wall thickness that is characteristic of ERW.

So maybe you get by the tech inspector, race the car for a while and then sell it. Buyer wrecks, gets hurt, and the cage is cut to get him out. Cage is revealed as illegal material, what is your liability exposure?

Or, just build it with DOM like the rules require.

[ledfoot2]

they are called inspection holes for a reason. they insert a length of stiff wire or rod and look/feel for the seam on the inside.

But like I was saying, some of the ERW that I've seen doesn't have a visible seam from the inside or outside. The weld gets scuffed off and you can't see or feel anything but a black line. If thats the case no one would ever know.

I don't see how you get rid of the interior seam from the weld. Personally, if these are not important rules, I will run the ultimate cage for weight......PVC covered with pipe insulation!!. No seams to work about and you and build your own in an hour.

[CMC #37]

they are called inspection holes for a reason. they insert a length of stiff wire or rod and look/feel for the seam on the inside.

But like I was saying, some of the ERW that I've seen doesn't have a visible seam from the inside or outside. The weld gets scuffed off and you can't see or feel anything but a black line. If thats the case no one would ever know.

I don't see how you get rid of the interior seam from the weld. Personally, if these are not important rules, I will run the ultimate cage for weight......PVC covered with pipe insulation!!. No seams to work about and you and build your own in an hour.

(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rotf.gif) You're killin' me! On this same note - I had someone build me a cage of ERW claiming it was DOM. It took the tech inspector about 20 seconds to figure that out after drilling a hole..........

[StanIROCZ]

they are called inspection holes for a reason. they insert a length of stiff wire or rod and look/feel for the seam on the inside.

But like I was saying, some of the ERW that I've seen doesn't have a visible seam from the inside or outside. The weld gets scuffed off and you can't see or feel anything but a black line. If thats the case no one would ever know.

Ya, you could try to get your supplier to select tubing that doesn't have a ridge on the inside, and buff it smooth on the outside, and still get nailed by an ultrasonic thickness tester that exposes the inconsistent wall thickness that is characteristic of ERW.

So maybe you get by the tech inspector, race the car for a while and then sell it. Buyer wrecks, gets hurt, and the cage is cut to get him out. Cage is revealed as illegal material, what is your liability exposure?

Or, just build it with DOM like the rules require.

I'm not recommending that anybody build a cage with ERW although it may have come across that way. If you forget about the mechanics the rule books ask for DOM so there is no reason not to do it. The extra cost of DOM vs ERW is nothing compared to your total investment.

Someone mentioned that 00 Trans Am probably has a ERW tube roll cage. I was saying that I wouldn't worry about it too much, esp when you consider that he is at a 0.143 wall.

http://www.metalmartusa.com/item.asp?id=84

ELECTRICAL RESISTANCE WELDED is produced from low carbon steel. Tubing with walls heavier than18ga. is produced from hot rolled steel; tubing with walls 18 ga. and lighter is produced from cold rolled steel. Furnished in as welded condition.OD flash removed on allsizes.
For round tubing1 OD and larger ID flash control led to .010 to .015 (depending on O.D.) Sizes under 1 OD and all square and rectangles are flash-in. ERW is the lowest cost of all mechanical tubing. Manufactured to OD and wall dimensions. Meet ASTM A513 Type1 (HR)
or Type 2 (CR). Stocked in 20ft. random lengths.

DOM (Drawn-over-mandrel) is a cold drawn electric resistance welded tube with allflash removed. Each tube is tested for soundness of weld. Preferred over seamless tubing for its excellent OD& ID concentricity. Normalizing and cold drawing over a mandrel makes DOM a uniform and precision product. Made from 1020 (UNS G10200) steel in walls 10 ga. and lighter; from1026 (UNS G10260) steel in walls heavier than10 ga. Furnished in as drawn condition. Manufactured to OD and ID dimensions except as noted. Meets ASTM A513 Type 5. Stocked in lengths of 8 to 24 ft.

I'll try and dig up some more concrete info on the mechanical properties. I used to have access to ASTM A513 but I don't anymore. The strength advantage that comes from the DOM is through cold working. Cold working raises the yield strength but reduces the ductility (% elongation). The yield strength of the roll cage isn't important. What is important is the cages ability to absorb energy. The amount of energy that a material can absorb is proportional to the area under the curve (stress strain curve). I'll confirm this if I am able to find some more data, but I remember ERW and hot roll steels have a higher percent elongation which means that they can bend more before fracture. Net effect is similar ability to absorb energy (its not impossibly that ERW can absorb more). Giving this a second thought the yield could be important where the tubes are close to the driver since it will absorb more energy in the smaller strain area under the curve.

Maybe someone with more experience than I in motorsports can confirm this, but my hunch is that ERW got a bad rep a long time ago from seam failures. I think that is a thing of the past. I worked for a propshaft mfg that shipped over a million ERW props a year. In my 3.5 years we had ZERO seam fracture returns through warranty and one (1) seam fracture that we found in fatigue testing and that was due to a poor quality weld that was supposed to be caught by 100% eddy current inspection.

Having said that our suppliers were held to standards that might be greater than other ERW mfgs in the world. DOM might be a way to filter out poor quality to some degree.

This is obviously my personal opinion based some experience so take it FWIW. I don't think ERW is dangerously inferior to DOM, but I won't be saving $100 or whatever to put it in my car. I just wonder if anyone from a these sactioning bodys really looked at the details or is just doing a cut-and-paste.

[StanIROCZ]

Oh, and I just remembered this. That one tube that I said failed down the seam... It was a DOM (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rotf.gif)

[mitchntx]

Oh, and I just remembered this. That one tube that I said failed down the seam... It was a DOM (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rotf.gif)

I thought Drawn Over Mandrel tubing had no seam ... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

[nape]

Oh, and I just remembered this. That one tube that I said failed down the seam... It was a DOM (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rotf.gif)

I thought Drawn Over Mandrel tubing had no seam ... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

It has no visible seam anymore, but tubing is made from a coil of sheet steel, formed, and resistance welded.

[CMC#5]

ASTM513 specifies an increased yield strength of almost 60% for DOM (type 5) over as rolled ERW (type 1). It also indicates, as you'd imagine, a lot closer tolerance control for OD, ID, ovality, etc etc. (tolerances cut in half in some cases!)

[00 Trans Ram]

Let's see - first off, good info about the ERW vs. DOM - I'd forgotten that detail. That would definitely come back and bite someone.

However, I installed the first part of my cage (roll bar) and got it inspected by SCCA prior to 1/1/03. SCCA GCR says, "Note: ERW tubing is not permitted in any car registered with SCCA after of 01/01/2003." So, I'm good there.

Secondly, I have both a thicker wall and a larger diameter than the minimum required (1.5x.120). Drawing on Stan's post above, and regular logic, a thicker wall will resist bending better than a thinner wall. Also, a thicker wall will resist bending better after it is already bent (think a secondary impact from a car after you've hit the wall). And, the larger diameter will definitely resist initial bending better than a smaller one.

Oh, and I also used the "Jegs" stuff for the main hoop, rear bars, halo, and front down bars. The door bars, T/A brace and dash bar are actually 1.625 x .1875 thickness.

Finally, if anyone ever buys my car, they can't do a thing to me if they wreck it. It's a "race car". Half the street cars on used car lots have disclaimers saying that there is "no warranty on this car, implied or expressesd". I certainly ain't got no warranty on my race car! If you buy it, and you race it, and you wreck it - it's no longer my problem. I mean, I hate that someone may get hurt. But, my car was built to the rules when it was built. You can't expect to go buy a '66 Mustang vintage Trans Am racer and expect it to have modern safety equipment.

But, I think we can all agree that my method for "building a cage on the cheap" won't work anymore. Best to get someone to do it for you.