Detroit throws the gauntlet at NASCAR... Options

[Rob Hood]

http://www.autoextremist.com/fumes1

[StanIROCZ]

That was perfect.

[mitchntx]

Whoa!

I like what the big 3 are saying, but does their checkbook carry that kind of stroke?

[trackbird]

It's about time. I'm not a NASCAR fan in the least. As a matter of fact, I probably wouldn't notice if it just went completely away. However, we were discussing the old Monte Carly "Aeroback" that came out in the late 80's the other day at work and how the manufacturers used to turn out special models to get a modification to be legal for competition. Those days seemed to be long since dead and gone, but it appears that there could be a turn around. And frankly, the France family is making a ton of money and seem to be getting even more greedy. I'd love to see them get knocked down a little bit by the manufacturers. Maybe they'll make a race series out of it after all...

Whoa!

I like what the big 3 are saying, but does their checkbook carry that kind of stroke?

If all 3 quit writing checks, the whole thing could tank, or at least be seriously reduced in scope. No parts/engines will make it fun to make the cars go. No OEM support will really hurt, some more than others, but it will hurt them all.

[Rob Hood]

Aside from the obvious (NASCAR never backs down...), I would be curious what car the support series would run IF the top series did run the ponycars. I am skeptical of any FWD transmission lasting on the high banks of Daytona. NASCAR did run V6s in Busch many years ago, but it was still a RWD platform.

I also agree with moving into the 20th century (yes I said 20th, as I doubt NASCAR will ever get into the current century). It isn't that NASCAR can't police the fuel injection systems and other electronics, it's that they WON'T. The teams are already manipulating the ignition boxes as cheap traction control by modifying them to have different timing controls. I have only heard that and not seen any real data to support that.

I was surprised at Detroit wanting NASCAR to reduce the schedule (must have been listening to Danica), but do applaud them wanting more road racing, which is something I've wanted as well. The schedule used to be much longer, although it was much more regional then. Many races were run during the week. That's part of how Petty got so many of his wins.

They could get rid of one race at New Hampshire, one at Dover, one at Fontana, and maybe one here at Phoenix or Pocono. I like the night race here in the spring, but the November race is the next to last one in the Chase and could prove pivotal (hasn't yet though, IMO). I would like to see Elkhart Lake added and maybe Road Atlanta, but they have current races near them as well. Maybe could swap them out for one of the Chicago/Atlanta dates.

Bottom line is the France family needs to wake up and quit acting like Bruton Smith with the pre-race circus atmosphere, the high priced-tickets have got to go, and the cars need to look like cars, not poster children for socialism on wheels.

[trackbird]

...the cars need to look like cars, not poster children for socialism on wheels.

That is quote of the week material. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/2thumbs.gif)

[rmackintosh]

NASCRAP heading for trouble......AMEN!
(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/2thumbs.gif)

[ESPCamaro]

Aside from the obvious (NASCAR never backs down...), I would be curious what car the support series would run IF the top series did run the ponycars. I am skeptical of any FWD transmission lasting on the high banks of Daytona. NASCAR did run V6s in Busch many years ago, but it was still a RWD platform.

I also agree with moving into the 20th century (yes I said 20th, as I doubt NASCAR will ever get into the current century). It isn't that NASCAR can't police the fuel injection systems and other electronics, it's that they WON'T. The teams are already manipulating the ignition boxes as cheap traction control by modifying them to have different timing controls. I have only heard that and not seen any real data to support that.

I was surprised at Detroit wanting NASCAR to reduce the schedule (must have been listening to Danica), but do applaud them wanting more road racing, which is something I've wanted as well. The schedule used to be much longer, although it was much more regional then. Many races were run during the week. That's part of how Petty got so many of his wins.

They could get rid of one race at New Hampshire, one at Dover, one at Fontana, and maybe one here at Phoenix or Pocono. I like the night race here in the spring, but the November race is the next to last one in the Chase and could prove pivotal (hasn't yet though, IMO). I would like to see Elkhart Lake added and maybe Road Atlanta, but they have current races near them as well. Maybe could swap them out for one of the Chicago/Atlanta dates.

Bottom line is the France family needs to wake up and quit acting like Bruton Smith with the pre-race circus atmosphere, the high priced-tickets have got to go, and the cars need to look like cars, not poster children for socialism on wheels.

Aside from really die hard nascar fans the long schedule only undermines the popularity it has. Basically after the first 10 races (because of excitement built during the offseason) interest is lost until the last 10 races......

I LOVE everything that was said in that article...What I'd also like to see is a points system restructure.......Award few points, and only down to 20th place. IMO this would improve racing by adding a perform now desperation to every race. It would also get crashed up junk and people 10 laps down OFF track.



The best thing that could happen IMO is that Nascar fall apart from a complete back out from the big 3, and indycar absorb some of the drivers and marketing execs from Nascar.
IndyCar has had MUCH better racing for years, and yet it gets horrid ratings.
Personally I'd like to see Jeff Gordon, and Tony Stewart in an Indy Car.

This post has been edited by ESPCamaro: Aug 8 2008, 12:58 PM

[mitchntx]

Personally I'd like to see Jeff Gordon, and Tony Stewart in an Indy Car.

And Tony George go to NASCAR ... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/cool2.gif)

[pknowles]

About time. I got into watching NASCAR for 2 seasons in the late 90's, then I just couldn't watch it anymore. It's defiantly not a display of technology and I'm not a huge fan of ovals, but I do still watch the road race events when I can. I think stockish body shapes would bring a lot of interest back. I never understood what the big 3 got out of NASCAR the way it is now either. I think they stayed in becuase the other were and they didn't want to be outdone. It's not like they can actually use anything the teams come up with on a real car or collect any usable data. And I not going to buy a Chevrolet because some unrecognizable thing with a bowtie on front wins a bunch of races because there is not 1 modern Chevrolet part in that thing.

I would however watch a racing series using highly modified chassis or tube frame conversions of real cars that I could at least make some connection to a real street car. Stock bodies would also bring the speeds down without the need of restrictor plates. NASCAR to me is a place where the manufactures fight it out in design in some form and that has totally been lost.

[trackbird]

Heck, the ASA cars were at least using LS1's, but the "big boys" are stuck to 358 cubic inch small blocks with carbs. Hmm... And yet, ASA seems to be policed to some degree. However, in all fairness, there isn't the money in ASA to hire the talent to bend the rules on a grand (and hard to detect) scale. That may be the difference.

[00 SS]

It's about damn time. These are the things I've been wanting to see for years now.

[killer_bluebird]

^^ Ditto, I stopped watching because of the way NASCAR where heading with the program a few years back. Personally I would have though that they would do away with the Nationwide series and kept the truck series instead. The reason I say that, is that the Nationwide Series seems to be too close to the cup series, I like the trucks because it added distinctiveness, plus they spoke to their initial audience (rednecks) (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) . If they do away with them you have 2 series that are very similar run at the same places (most of the time), and have the same top drivers. I think if they want to ramp up a feeder series they should leave that to Arca Remax Series or Hooters Pro Cup. As far as adding more Road Courses to the schedule I'm all for that as that opens the market for them (More Tracks available to them) and I would love to see a Nascar Race at Mid-Ohio. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)

[trackbird]

True, but now that the manufacturers are not making their living selling trucks and overpriced SUV's to the masses, there is no reason to pay for truck racing. The "win on Sunday, sell on Monday" thinking will not apply to trucks with $4.00+ gas. Contractors will buy trucks as they need them and the race series will do little to change that. So, if we're not going to sell trucks because of the race series, what's the point of putting money in it. That will be the thing that kills it off.

[killer_bluebird]

True, but now that the manufacturers are not making their living selling trucks and overpriced SUV's to the masses, there is no reason to pay for truck racing. The "win on Sunday, sell on Monday" thinking will not apply to trucks with $4.00+ gas. Contractors will buy trucks as they need them and the race series will do little to change that. So, if we're not going to sell trucks because of the race series, what's the point of putting money in it. That will be the thing that kills it off.

True

[CMC #37]

^^ Ditto, I stopped watching because of the way NASCAR where heading with the program a few years back. Personally I would have though that they would do away with the Nationwide series and kept the truck series instead. The reason I say that, is that the Nationwide Series seems to be too close to the cup series, I like the trucks because it added distinctiveness, plus they spoke to their initial audience (rednecks) (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) . If they do away with them you have 2 series that are very similar run at the same places (most of the time), and have the same top drivers. I think if they want to ramp up a feeder series they should leave that to Arca Remax Series or Hooters Pro Cup. As far as adding more Road Courses to the schedule I'm all for that as that opens the market for them (More Tracks available to them) and I would love to see a Nascar Race at Mid-Ohio. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)

Yeah, NASCAR at Mid-Ohio, in the rain! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/nutkick.gif) I only watch the road course NASCAR races. Hubby and I are big fans of Formula 1 and the American Lemans/Rolex GT series. That's some good drivin'! I also like Indycar but not enough road courses in that series for me.

I love those suggestions for NASCAR from the big three. Someone with juice needs to get real with that roundy round personality-fest! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

[raybob9289]

Are you guys ready for the "REAL" Trans Am return?????

(Real meaning the production cars)

[CMC #37]

Are you guys ready for the "REAL" Trans Am return?????

(Real meaning the production cars)

I'm ready!!! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/2thumbs.gif) WTF is this COT thing anyway?!!!! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rant2.gif)

[slowcamaro]

So is any of this legit or is it just more internet heresay?

[AllZWay]

I know this is a Nascar bash fest....but ALL of the car manufacuters have pulled their support in the past (60's) and they all returned. Even then they were giving under the table money to various teams.

[trackbird]

Are you guys ready for the "REAL" Trans Am return?????

(Real meaning the production cars)

I'm ready!!! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/2thumbs.gif) WTF is this COT thing anyway?!!!! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rant2.gif)

COT = Car Of Tomorrow.

It's nascars vision of a souless car with a single body template and chassis with a GM/Ford/Toyota sticker on the nose to make it that specific brand. It's a spec chassis that I believe you have to buy from the France family (If I understood that correctly) and if it's fixed, they have to reapprove it. That's coming from a nascar watching co worker. But at least it insures jobs for the France family building and checking chassis. Of course some of that information could be wrong because I got it second hand....and I mostly didn't care... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[00 Trans Ram]

I wish I was a France.

Anyone know of a business that's looking for a person/family to dominate the industry, make all the rules and keep all the profit? If so, let me know where to sign up.

[CMC #37]

I was being sarcastic about the COT...I think it is too abstract compared to what is actually on the road these days. NASCAR has really gotten away from the rum-running roots in stock cars.... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/glare.gif)

[Crazy Canuck]

I've read this section 3x... and don't understand it.

6. Make the Nationwide Series a true driver development series. The majority of the Detroit Three want the Nationwide Series to be strictly a driver development series, which means Sprint Cup drivers wouldn't be allowed to compete. Sounds simple enough, right? The reality? NASCAR doesn't take too kindly to people telling them what they can or cannot do when it comes to a competitive aspect in one of their series, but who knows? Once NASCAR gets use to grappling with all of these other ideas from the manufacturers, this might be the easiest one to go along with.

What are they really suggesting ?
Are they saying that 1 of the series would be for newbies to work on skills until they get to the real-series ?
like the junior-league, if you'd call it like that ?
sorry... 4th language syndrome.

[Rob Hood]

I was being sarcastic about the COT...I think it is too abstract compared to what is actually on the road these days. NASCAR has really gotten away from the rum-running roots in stock cars.... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/glare.gif)

"rum-running"...now you're talking! Should be four cases of fresh whiskey in the trunk of all the cars...and then all 43 cars race from Atlanta to Bristol. First one to get there without (a) getting caught and (2) breaking a jar wins!

This post has been edited by Rob Hood: Aug 9 2008, 05:55 AM

[Rob Hood]

Personally I'd like to see Jeff Gordon, and Tony Stewart in an Indy Car.

And Tony George go to NASCAR ... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/cool2.gif)

Nah - he can stay in Indy. Anyone who claims to want to start a series based on American chassis and engines, then changes the rules and goes back to what it was prior to the split, is a traitor IMO. Got to be connected to Benedict Arnold on the family tree somehow. There should be just as much innovation and rule interpretation at Indy as there once was - same for NASCAR. Neither sanctioning body could figure out how to stay ahead of those who pushed the envelope, so they made it taboo to change anything. Next thing you know, it's cookie-cutter cars and racing...where are the Jim Halls and Smokey Yunicks of today? Who knows - intellectual creativity has been demolished in both series as far as I'm concerned. At least Champ Car had Ford engines.

[rpoz-29]

One of my beefs with NASCAR is the mandatory tire size, gear ratios and so forth. If they buy their engines from a limited number of builders, and NASCAR dictates everything else they do, why do they need a crew chief? It sounds like they need a negotiator, (for those closing laps when they need a draft partner), a spotter and some darn good tire changers.

[nape]

I can only speak from personal experience, but the last few Indy races I've seen (not recently) have been snoozefests. Same thing whenever I turn on Formula 1. Good luck passing.

Everyone can bitch all they want about no current technology, etc, but look at how much money people spend on R&D and repairs trying to race stock junk. A good World Challenge GT car is $250-300k and I'd guess a WC TC car is approaching the $100,000 mark if it's not already past. GT cars are using big dollar sequentials and TC cars are at least using dog boxes, some have sequentials. Both series are allowed to use dry-sump systems and big $$$ engine management systems.

I don't have a connection to any of the teams, but I try to watch/listen to whatever I can find about them. If you think a NASCAR motor is expensive, ask LG how much his Hollinger transmission cost with all the bells and whistles.

This post has been edited by nape: Aug 9 2008, 03:23 PM

[raybob9289]

Its Coming!!!!

[T.O.Dillinder]

I would however watch a racing series using highly modified chassis or tube frame conversions of real cars that I could at least make some connection to a real street car. Stock bodies would also bring the speeds down without the need of restrictor plates. NASCAR to me is a place where the manufactures fight it out in design in some form and that has totally been lost.

Wasn't that the SCCA Trans-Am Series From the late sixties until really the late eighties.
In the 90's it seemed liked they were starting to go Cuckoo for Coconuts.

[1meanZ]

I realize that I'm really right-wing here but here's what I'd LOVE to see. I want to see stock chassis cars with stock suspension attachment points, stock engine and driveline configuration, stock engine displacement and something else like stock cam profile or something... The cars could have cages, but I better see stock floor pan stampings under the seats! I'd love to watch the Hemi Charger take on the 5.3 powered Monte Carlo vs the nutless crapwagon Toyota Camry and Ford Fusion. Dodge would clearly dominate, and Ford and Toyota would look like the Jr. High girls cheerleading squad. This is about the only thing that would actually motivate me to buy something I saw racing. The OEMs could also sell the parts used to beef up the race cars as well. I could go buy suspension pieces and trans parts from GM to beef up my badass 5.3L powered Monte Carlo. Then it could be like it was back even in the 80's when Buick, pontiac, and oldsmobile were still involved. I imagine the Cadillac CTS-V could beat up on the Charger.....

This post has been edited by 1meanZ: Aug 29 2008, 10:37 PM

[sgarnett]

I've read this section 3x... and don't understand it.

6. Make the Nationwide Series a true driver development series. The majority of the Detroit Three want the Nationwide Series to be strictly a driver development series, which means Sprint Cup drivers wouldn't be allowed to compete. Sounds simple enough, right? The reality? NASCAR doesn't take too kindly to people telling them what they can or cannot do when it comes to a competitive aspect in one of their series, but who knows? Once NASCAR gets use to grappling with all of these other ideas from the manufacturers, this might be the easiest one to go along with.

What are they really suggesting ?
Are they saying that 1 of the series would be for newbies to work on skills until they get to the real-series ?
like the junior-league, if you'd call it like that ?
sorry... 4th language syndrome.

There's already a hierarchy of the series, with the Winston/Nextel/Sprint Cup on top, and several "junior" or feeder series to develop drivers. The problem is, anytime a Cup driver wants to get a little extra practice or cash, they can drop down and race in the development series. Often, the junior race is held at the same track, one day before the Cup race (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) When the well-funded Cup drivers bump someone who is actually competing in the series (which happens REGULARLY), the bumped driver's sponsor gets no exposure, the driver gets no points, which hurts the sponsor's exposure even more, and so on. Good-bye, team sponsor.

My father-in-law, a NASCAR fan, has argued that nobody should be allowed to compete "below" their class. If a driver retires from a higher class and wants to drop to a lower class, fine, as long as he can keep up (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[roadracetransam]

There's already a hierarchy of the series, with the Winston/Nextel/Sprint Cup on top, and several "junior" or feeder series to develop drivers. The problem is, anytime a Cup driver wants to get a little extra practice or cash, they can drop down and race in the development series. Often, the junior race is held at the same track, one day before the Cup race (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) When the well-funded Cup drivers bump someone who is actually competing in the series (which happens REGULARLY), the bumped driver's sponsor gets no exposure, the driver gets no points, which hurts the sponsor's exposure even more, and so on. Good-bye, team sponsor.

My father-in-law, a NASCAR fan, has argued that nobody should be allowed to compete "below" their class. If a driver retires from a higher class and wants to drop to a lower class, fine, as long as he can keep up (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I agree. What's the point in watching the same drivers race in 3 races, (including the truck series) in one weekend.

I got turned off NASCAR, when they started running the Ford Tauruses, pretending a sedan was a coupe. By the way what is up with the 4 door coupe from Mercedes. Did everyone forget that coupe=2doors sedan=4doors. But I am digressing. COT with different stickers for different brands. Since these are clearly not Fords, Toyotas, Chevyes, the teams should pay royalties to the manifacturers for useing their logos /names.
Anyone heard of any changes brewing, form another source lately? I watched some Speed Nascar coverage last weekend to see if they mention anything but, did not see anything.

[nape]

I agree. What's the point in watching the same drivers race in 3 races, (including the truck series) in one weekend.

Exposure. It's simple marketing and I'm not even a business savvy guy.

If you're a fan of Indy Cars and all the big drivers show up to run Toyota Atlantic (or whatever they're calling it these days), aren't you going to be more inclined to watch the TA race? I would just to see if the big names can beat the up-and-comers.

Everyone wins except the guys who get bumped. Just like Saturday night at the dirt track.