Everyone likes a good "Conspiracy Theory", Is big time racing wrecking for dollars? Options

[mitchntx]

After watching a some of the coverage of the Daytona 500 this weekend and hearing a lot of discussion about the costs associated with feilding a competitive team and hearing the gnashing of teeth surrounding the dwindling sponsorships and hearing the concerns about enough cars to field a full grid and seeing Waltrip's wild tumble and seeing that tumble re-played on network after network after network ....

I began to wonder ....

Because it's all about the number of minutes a specific sponsor get's it's name on TV, when will a driver, who is an "also ran", purposely wreck his car, just get gleen a few extra minutes of sponsor coverage?

Is it cost effective to spend a $100,000 race car in order to keep a $10 million sponsor?

NAPA received tons of exposure from networks to local TV stations replaying his wreck. I would hate to see that happen on purpose, but ... it has to be there in someone's mind ...

[Chris 96 WS6]

I don't think Mikey would ever go along with such a thing. NAPA was gauranteed to get plenty of camera time anyway considering he's won 2 of the previous 3 500's. The accident was the result of 2 rookies running right beside him and one of them screwed up.

[trackbird]

Guess I don't watch enough TV. I didn't see it.....

[Absolut Speed]

You certainly wonder how long the cycle can go on with sponsors shelling out so much money, and in increasing amounts. It can't be too long before they price themselves out if something's not done. Ask the NHL what it's like to price yourself out of the market.

[mitchntx]

Don't get me wrong, Chris. I didn't mean to imply that Mikey would take a header.

But you have to admit ... it's an intriguing twist ....

[trackbird]

I'm sure the sponsors don't mind much....

[AllZWay]

Yep... I don't think sponsors really care "HOW" they get the exposure as long as they get the exposure equal to the amount of money spent.

Thus.... The dwindling sponsors in Nascar are direct result of "NOT" getting the appropriate exposure for the money spent.

I think the new end of season rules only make the Sponsorship even more concerned about end of the season exposure.

[rmackintosh]

......well.....I don't put much stock at all in NASCAR...I see them as the downfall of American racing.....

NASCAR is to racing as the WWF/WWE is to the sport of wrestling....

The France boys even admitted it this year with their INSANITY....I mean new points system...."we are entertainment....."

Next thing you know there will be these crazy personalities and fights on pit road.....wait.....that already happens....

(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

[Zimm]

Back when Jordan was running the 7-Up car (I think it was their first F1 season), the program in Montreal included an artist's picture of the 7-Up Jordan flying over top of a Ferrari after running into the back of it.

When asked if he was upset by the picture, Eddie Jordan said something like: absolutely not - any publicity is good publicity. Besides, he was thrilled that the artist thought his car was fast enough to hit the back of a Ferrari.

So ... from artist's imagination to the real world (well, the NASCAR world anyway)?

[Chris 96 WS6]

Fights and things...if you know your NASCAR history you know that sort of thing was common 20-30 years ago. Now it is not. Sponsors don't like their drivers getting suspended from races, and NASCAR cherishes its image more now than ever, so some of the wild antics that were part of the sport years ago have been replaced with politically correct stuff.

No driver today could be as aggressive as Dale Earnhardt was in his prime. Dale himself mellowed quite a bit over the years. But today you see guys like Harvick taking out Rudd last year and it is just not tolerated, it is a good way to miss a race, lose championship points, and have your team owner and sponsor mad at you PLUS earn retaliation on the track next week.

I guess what I lament about the sport is that it is so money driven now. The new points system is stupid an to me renders any championship earned under it totally incomparable to past championships.

I know most of you Road Racers probably don't like the sport, but I enjoy Nascar. maybe they are not the best talent in terms of turning left AND right out there, but there are a few that more than hold their own at the two road courses and at events like 24hrs of Daytona. The fact that guys like Boris Said and Robby Gordon cannot just walk in, sit down in a Cup car and dominate an oval track event suggest to me that great road racers do not automatically make good stock car racers, so it would seem to me that talent is relative to the venue.

I find the similarities between the Nextel Cup cars and our Fbodies to be more meaninful than say F1 cars, simply because they are running 2v per cyl cam-in block pushrod V8s, live rear axles, etc. No they are not "stock" cars anymore, that is just a term for the type of racing. More importantly, it is the personalities that drive Nascar. Yes, I guess that's sort of like WWE, but I think personalities drive every sport. Who was a Bulls fan but not a Jordan fan? Who was a Yankees fan but had no favorite players?

As for the wrecks vis a vis sponsor exposure. The "new" TV contract with NBC and Fox has created some tough things I don't care for. Basically they are trying to sell everything they can get their hands on. Now you have races with "presenting" sponors, like the Cracker Barrell 500 presented by Kraft Foods. How are they presenting anything? Seems to me NASCAR is the one putting on the presentation. Just stupid stuff like that, or how they would not allow ESPN to report trackside because only TNT and FOX were allowed magazine-type race show coverage. Now that RPM tonight is gone ESPN is allowed back in instead of getting driver interviews in the parking lot.

Sponsorships are tight because its too expensive to justify to companies that can't draw the line between the sponsorship and increased revenue. You're going to give $12M to a team, you want to see at least $20M in increased revenue. Certain products/sponsors are not going to be able to generate that kind of crossover from the race car to the grocery store or whatever. I think Bud has more than made their money from Dale Jr, but how has CAT benefitted from the #22 sponsorship? Its a little harder to quantify for certain sponsors I think.

[felton316]

$100,000 investment for a $10 million dollar return........ I'd do it. Didn't see what happen, so I can't say if he did it on purpose though.

[Chris 96 WS6]

There is a marketing firm that spends all week each week reviewing every second of footage from the NASCAR races in all three series, they compile a list of sponsors and total airtime exposure whether through seeing the car on screen, driver mentions of the name, broadcast crew mentions, etc. They provide a matrix that shows the sponsors what kind of coverage they get for their dollars.

The flaw in Mitch's theory is that the wreck happened on lap 72. Yeh it took better part of a 1/2 hour to get the car righted, get Waltrip out of it, etc. But after that the car got hauled off and there was no NAPA presence on the track the rest of the race.

I think you'd find a lot of the sponsors of the 4-10th place cars were not too happy that the broadcasters spent 99% of the last 50 laps focused on the leaders.

[ESPCamaro]

Nascar IS american racing. Think what you wan't. Take away Nascar and keep all the road racing series alive and there is NO American racing.

Your only hope was Cart. Which in the early 90's was GREAT. I watched every race. Through a 5-7 year stretch. But Tony George ruined that...AND the greatest race in the world.

There is one simple reason why there is sponsorship issues in the cup series. Because sponsors DO EXPECT RESULTS. Guys who don't have a sponsor don't produce results. Period.

Budweiser, Napa, Home Depot, Dupont, Lowes....how much money do you think it would take for another company to buy sponsorship into those teams? ALOT. Because those sponsors are not going to give up the exposure they have by being part of a team that runs at the front of the pack, and consisantly produces results.

Some of those guys (although better drivers than me I'm sure) DON'T NEED SPONSORS. Derrick Cope is a perfect example. Why in the world he is even allowed to have a Nascar license is beyond me.

Casey Mears, Foyt, John Andretti, and the list could go on. It SHOULD be hard to get a sponsor on board for some of these guys.


I think Nascar is a bunch of good old boys racing the AMERICAN way (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)


Dale Jr is the MAN!

[Chris 96 WS6]

Great post Lonnie. Dead on about Cope....wrecks w/in the first 10 laps every event. His '90 Daytona 500 win was a mere fluke (Earnhardt Curse gave him the win)...he was never very good.

Go #8!

[ESPCamaro]

Yeah, the Cope's 500 win was about a big a fluke as ANY race win I've EVER seen.

About the ONLY thing done to even remotely deserve the win, was to still be running at the end.
Not only a run of bad luck for Big E, but almost every dang car in the feild was taken out in the "big one" that happens every restrictor plate race.


I've never seen so much stupid race driving in a pro series as the 500 this year. Even Mark Martin put on a nice dumb a$$ move. Don't like him anyway (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

[rmackintosh]

Nascar IS american racing.

UNFORTUNATELY....I agree with you....It just happens to be the MOST BORING FORM OF RACING EVER DEVISED! Crap.....If I wanna see millions of cars jammed together 4-5 wide within inches of each others bumpers all while making MINIMAL steering input....I just look to my daily commute! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

Your assesment of CART/IRL is mostly true as well....they killed each other.....too bad...it is unfortunate that NASCAR has been so succesful...cause' now the France family (with Grand-Am) thinks they can do for sports car racing what they did for stock car racing......NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

Did anyone see the DEATH of the Daytona 24 Hours? BORING homologated "prototype" cars that are all the same, look the same, and perform the same....sound like some other type of "American Racing"....racing is not ALWAYS meant to be racing equally preped boxes with flat bodywork so we can put the corporate logos up top for all to see.

Somebody STOP the France family NOW PLEASE!

....these opinions are not affiliated in any way with the management of this board.... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Chris 96 WS6]

UNFORTUNATELY....I agree with you....It just happens to be the MOST BORING FORM OF RACING EVER DEVISED! Crap.....If I wanna see millions of cars jammed together 4-5 wide within inches of each others bumpers all while making MINIMAL steering input....I just look to my daily commute! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

Good thing for us Daytona/Talladega type racing is only 4 races out of 36 on the Cup schedule.

However, "millions of cars Jammed together 4-5 wide within inches of each other all while making" big steering input, as in BRISTOL NIGHT RACE, is unbelievably entertaining.

[trackbird]

Did anyone see the DEATH of the Daytona 24 Hours?

I was there this year, rain and all. I can now say I went (got some good photos though).

I actually enjoyed the vintage race as much as anything.....go figure...

[ESPCamaro]

Randy, I'm not trying to argue with you. Just seeing if you could see things from a Nascar fans perspective.

Like Chris said, plate races are VERY few compared to other races.
Personally I don't care for plate races. But since I'm a fan of Jr and Mikey, I gotta watch em' since they do so well.

Also like Chris said, what may help to change your view, is to stay home one Saturday night for a Bristol or Charlotte race. These are truely fun races to watch. Better yet would be to watch the Winston at Charlotte. Or whatever it may be called now!?

Admittedly I would like to see about 2 more road races on the schedule. But too many of the teams and drivers would complain.
Another point that was already made, but worth bringing up again, road racers have tried their luck in Nascar. They struggle about as bad or worse than Nascar guys who try to road race. Cars/drivers/teams are so competitive, and therefore specialized at what they do, that this is the only thing anyone could expect.

[mitchntx]

One counter point is that the race lasted another 2 hours after Waltrip's wreck. Yet the twirling NAPA logo was on every sports show, both local and national for the rest of the day. It seems the 97 car was running WITH the top 5 almost the rest of the way. Funny how he never got mentioned much, especially after the race.

But Chris, let's get past the Waltrip/NAPA analogy.

I only brought up the wreck as an example of, if it were a so-so driver with an "on the fence" sponsor, how a driver/team could conspire to get sponsor air time they wouldn't have normally gotten because of where/how they were running at the time.

I'm also not saying that it's actually happening ... but, it is an intriguing theory.

The theory being that race teams are clammering for a dwindling pile of money in any genre of racing. At some point, it is possible, that someone could do something desperate in order to stay in the game.

Just a theory ...

[rmackintosh]

Randy, I'm not trying to argue with you. Just seeing if you could see things from a Nascar fans perspective.

Not trying to argue with you either Lonnie....just having one of those internet posting moments! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I just dislike NASCAR SO MUCH....not just restrictor plate racing....I get excited! I just feel.....jealous I guess....that this "canned/packaged" version of racing gets to have the spotlight in American racing...and I would prefer more "noble" (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) forms of racing flourish so that AMERICAN drivers can go out and conquer the world as top drivers in VARIOUS forms of motorsports....F1, Rally, etc....instead of EVERYONE wondering where are the American drivers? Well.....they get SUCKED into big money, corporate sponsored NASCAR.....the black hole......I will stop my belly achin' now...

(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

I can understand NASCAR fans perspective....after all the stuff is prepackaged, marketed and distributed so that it is like candy to the "NASCAR Dads" out there.....just NEVER understood how people INTO motorsports get into NASCAR.....by the way....my crew cheif/dad....is the biggest NASCAR fan ever (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) ....I just don't get it.....

(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

[ESPCamaro]

I do dislike how some of the up and coming american greats get/got sucked into Nascar.

I always wanted Robby Gordon and Tony Stewart to be american open wheel racers. But Open wheel just isn't "there" anymore. And I don't think the open wheel woes can, or should, be blamed on Nascar.

[rmackintosh]

But Open wheel just isn't "there" anymore. And I don't think the open wheel woes can, or should, be blamed on Nascar.

True....open wheel killed themselves.....they call it greed.

But on the other hand.....the last few years that open wheel was "still viable" it was like F1 in the U.S......NO AMERICAN DRIVERS in an American series! And THAT is because all American drivers went to NASCAR.....not that I blame them...that is where the sponsors were. But don't think that Tony and Robby went to NASCAR because "they love it" no matter how many times it is printed/video'd....they both stayed in a DYING open wheel longer than most because it was more what they wanted to do......

But this is like pro basketball and high schoolers going pro right away....I can't blame them....with the $$$ being waved in their face....but doesn't mean I have to agree with it/like it.

[Chris 96 WS6]

Mitch, sorry for getting hung up on the one wreck. In general I will certainly agree with you that big wrecks are something you won't hear them talk about but they know a lot of people watch just to see wrecks and they aren't going to be in too much of a hurry to eliminate the big wrecks.

Personally I think they could have removed the plates a long time ago by simply reducing the maximum engine displacement for those two tracks would cut HP but maintain throttle response...they act like it will take alien tech to slow the cars down....

[sgarnett]

I don't buy wrecking for exposure. It may help Nascar, but it doesn't help the team.

The hidden costs are a lot higher than $100K. Every car is a little different (it's simply not possible to build an exact clone), testing opportunites are VERY limited and expensive, and throwing away a sorted-out car hurts the teams chances at the NEXT race (or more).

OTOH, I have seen a driver force a caution when they needed one (and not just in NASCAR), and it certainly isn't unheard of to wreck your car to guard a teammate that's winning.

The scariest incident I've seen was actually in a motorcycle race on a road course. Rider A layed his bike down. Rider B, had to go offroad to avoid hitting Rider A, and damaged his bike. The inevitable caution would not have been enough to help him.

SO, Rider B ran onto the course and layed down near Rider A's wreck, blocking most of the track and forcing the race to be red flagged. By stopping the race he gained the opportunity to get his bike repaired in time for the restart.

I never heard what came of it, but I hope he was kicked out of the series.

[sgarnett]

BTW, I heard a great comment from MW about the wreck.

He was pretty pissed off at the rescue crew. He was trying to get them to just flip the car back over with a tow truck to get him out - compared to the ride he'd already been on, it would be a walk in the park.

Instead, they were determined to get him out by cutting through the cage with Sawzalls while the car was still upside down. Why is this bad? The car was already toast - the cage is scrap after a wreck like that. HOWEVER, it was only the cage (and the driver's neck) that was holding the car up, and they wanted to remove the cage (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

[Rob Hood]

I think NAPA and Mikey would stand to gain a LOT more by him winning his third 500 in four years, rather than wrecking.

IMO, almost no race promoter is a racer, and vice versa. A promoter is out to make a profit off of his show, whatever that show may be. And the France's are promoters. The one thing they listen to is money. Sure, Big Bill raced early on, but he recognized a way to make a buck, and began laying the foundations of NASCAR.

Did people get away with cheating or "improvising" in the early years? Yup. Was a "call" made to a certain racer (or racers, or manufacturer)? Probably. The small block Chevy (Gen 1) was basically grown and nurtured early on in NASCAR by Smokey Yunick and others. But I highly doubt that any serious management of the race itself is happening today or for that matter, five to 10 years back. There are too many variables, plus NASCAR has probably tripled its checks and balances in the inspection and rule processes that have now made the cars cookie-cutter, regardless of manufacturer. They (NASCAR) are too concerned about how to manage electronics (traction control of various forms is being used by numerous top teams, IMO).

I too would prefer that NASCAR have some more road courses on its schedule, as long as Bruton Smith doesn't own one of the tracks. The roots of NASCAR are steeped in the tradition of moonshine runners evading the "revenuers," and the modfications to those 'shine cars was a strong starting point for racing cars in the South to begin with.

CART vs IRL - Tony George AND Penske/other CART owners are responsible for the death of a good solid open-wheel road racing series in America. CART for jacking up the costs to extreme proportions, and George for saying one thing and doing another.

One more item - get rid of the restrictor plates, period. Run a short track body (more downforce/drag), cut the carburetor in half (850 to 425), and mandate 9:1 CR. That would remove enough power from the car that the speeds would be manageable. (I'm not against speed, but I don't like the "hornets nest" theory of slowing the cars down. At least this year's 500 had the pack broken up due to the different tire Goodyear brought).

Sorry for the long post...

[AllZWay]

First Note... I am a Nascar fan and actually fan of most all motorsports.

However.. Nascar is definitely NOT the most boring. F1 is by far and away the most boring.

How fun is it to watch 1 car start on the pole... Never pass anyone....never come close to anyone and win the race by a large distance?

F1 is total crap to watch....it is not even racing... it is just follow the leader. I applaud the technology involved and like the cars themselves, but it not even close to actual racing.

[Bald54]

Watching just about any form of racing is kind of boring to me. NASCAR literally will put me into a coma. I do like to watch Speed Vision when they have the racing karts on. This is about as pure a form of racing as there is. I'd much rather run a Sunday afternoon autocross or track event than waste my time watching a NASCAR race or any other race for that matter.

[mongoosez]

Adding my .02

Cope should stick to his "hair club" commercials, and get out of any racing.

I agree that any good road race guy, can't just walk in and dominate. Why has Robby (as much as I hate him) and Tony Stewart gone on to succeed? Natural ability and instinct to adjust to a bad handling car. Otherwise, the majority fade away....

The sponsorship battle has gotten WAY out of hand. Thus the entertainment twist....Listen to someone like Ward Burton last year "Well, the Caterpiller, Brawny wipes, Excedrin migraine, Dodge was off a little...."
Jeez, the guy has marbles in his mouth, yet, has to hash out all the sponsors before getting to pertinent info. A mess. Don't get me wrong, I program him into my scanner strictly to listen to his drawl as he curses other guys on the track. Entertaining....

We, "educated" racers look for more information than supplied. Most of the audience is not of our caliber. They wouldn't understand toe in any more than thumb-up-butt. They WANT the entertainment. Now with the main stream picking up and sponsorship getting pricey, they want to clean up their image. Thus Nextel is king. P.C. the racing and sponsorship. Remember all the hype with Shauna Robinson? Yet, she refused Playtex Tampon sponsors. Why?
Now, THAT would have been entertaining..."The Dodge rammed the Tampon car up the rear end of the Dupont chevy...."hehehe
entertainment

Whenever there is an altercation on or off the track, it is news....entertainment

The season ending rules- might as well be the XFL.....

The drivers are called "personalities" now. Jeff Gordon was on Ryan Seacrest's new show yesterday, what were his questions? "What is the biggest fashion no-no you have comitted...."
Please!

Yeah, Eddie George and his politics may have foiled a great racing series. But I have been to every IRL race at TMS and will continue. I have driven a best avg. of 211.7 mph there. 4.5 lateral g's in the turns. It Kicks your Ass. It is fun to watch. 6 cars in a pack, neck and neck... can't argue that. CART is going in the crapper, NASCAR is a soap opera, IRL is still Eddie's, and what are we left with?

US! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

So we do our own thing, thumb our noses at the "BIG Boys" and drive on!

[JonV]

To me NASCAR is just a good opportunity for an afternoon nap. Hold throttle on floor turn wheel left. OK so I'm simplifying, but that is just about all there is to it in my view. The announcers just go on and on about how tough this track is, and that track is. Hell, they are all circles. The show is entertainment, pure and simple. Forty three cars running side by side at 190mph will almost surely produce a spectacular wreck on any given weekend. I find that shameful, and disgusting.

I'm a big fan of CART, (to me Tony George and all things related to him are the anti-Christ) and I've notice that road racers that come to ovals, adapt very quickly and seemingly with ease whereas the oppostie is not the case. This suggests to me that more talent is required to turn left and right to accelerate and brake on turns with and without favourable camber.

F1 was a much better show last year, but I have to agree that I do like to see a field of cars and drivers that has at least 10 potential winners in it on any given race day.

IRL is just the NASCARizatiion of open wheel in NA. A sham and a mockery of racing. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

There now that I've got that off my chest. . . (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

[AllZWay]

JonV a couple of examples to disprove your theory that Oval racing is easy.

Do you remember Alex Zanardi in Iroc racing? He couldn't drive his way out of wet paper bag. Castoneves isn't fairing much better.

Christian Fittipaldi & the Mears kid have both lost their rides in Nascar because they couldn't cut it.
Scott Pruett & Anthony Lazzaro couldn't make it either and there a couple of other road racers that had their legitimate chances and could cut it I just can't remember their names right now.


On the other side of the coin....

Tony Stewart had never road raced until he came to Nascar. He sat on the pole his first time and has now won a couple of Nascar road races with some big name road racers in the field. Then he and Earnhardt, Jr(another NON-road racer) almost won the 24 hours of Daytona. Dale Sr.... also never road raced except the 2 a year in Nascar, then was very good in the 24 hour race a few years back.

Robby Gordon is a great road racer and open wheel driver....but he sux as a stock car driver. John Andretti is another good road racer and open wheeler that has really struggled in stock cars on ovals.

The Dirt track drivers are the ones that are coming and dominating in Nascar and that is primarily because they learn throttle & car control while racing high HP cars on dirt.

I am not saying any one form is easier than others, just that they all take an enormous amount of skill....just maybe in varying forms.

BTW... I agree with Bill.... that IRL races are unbelievably awesome at Texas Motor Speedway. I swear you stop breathing from time to time as they get so fricking close to each and nose to tail several cars deep.

[rmackintosh]

JonV a couple of examples to disprove your theory that Oval racing is easy.

(RANT)

Its not that we think oval racing is easy....just that in comparison it is.....well EASY! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

Don't think that a driver that is trained in proper car control in both the right AND left direction as well as managing !GASP! the shifter AND !DOUBLE GASP! the BRAKES for heavens sake...given AN EQUAL car and an equal footing/chance would not have an advantage.

IROC is a joke.....lets see the NASCAR boys run on a road course in the competition to make it fair....hell make 'em run a event or two on dirt while your at it....and a drag race or two to be fair! Try putting 2 NASCAR guys in equally preped cars with 14 ROAD RACE guys at Laguna Seca and lets see who can't drive out of a paper bag! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) I have been to almost EVERY NASCAR race at Sears Point for 10 years straight.....I go for two reasons.....#1 I can get free tickets into luxury boxes with free food and BEER!....#2 I like to see the "lines" of some of "the best" professional racers in the country! Some can't hit the same line twice! Although I bet it IS hard in a car that weighs almost as much as my SUV!

NASCAR drivers are bred....they run short tracks since before they are old enough to get a drivers license, move up in oval type racing for 10 years and when they get good enough....they get a Busch ride....when they get better, they get a Cup ride.....road race guys are called up WITH NOT ONE MINUTE OF EXPERIENCE driving a OVERWEIGHT PIG of a car....by some MARGINAL team looking for a longshot or a one shot road race deal and people say "there.....you see.....it IS hard!" (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

(/RANT)

....man I HATE NASCAR....

can you tell....

(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

[Zimm]

IROC is a joke.....lets see the NASCAR boys run on a road course in the competition to make it fair....hell make 'em run a event or two on dirt while your at it....and a drag race or two to be fair! 

Say, Randy I think you're on to something. A new vision for IROC. One race at each of the following: a dirt short track, a paved short track, a super speedway, a proper road course, a street track, a rally stage (with water crossing), a drag strip, and maybe even an autocross or ice-race.

To keep costs down, they could use the same cars for each race - 4th gen f-bodies, of course (although the rally stage might be a bit of a struggle!). (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

Then we'd see who the real racers are.

[JonV]

I don't mean to imply that there are no good racers in NASCAR. Clearly Jeff Gordon has the stuff to make it RR, from what I saw of him in that little promo stunt where he drove Juan Montoya's Williams last year. He showed some pretty decent speed, and glory hallelujah, he was endlessly enthusiastic/amazed about the car. I'd love to see him in F1. Tony Stewart had an incredible drive in the Daytona 24 hr this year. He was unfreaking believable driving that car on two wheels. There are others I'm sure. Also, I like to watch the NASCAR races when they are on the Road Courses. It makes for some interesting cut and thrust stuf happening from time to time. This is the shame of NASCAR. Potentially great racers do nothing but go round and round. Everything is reduced to the lowest common denominator.

But circles?

Endless circles?

Blah!

I think it is near criminal to put open wheel cars that close on ovals. It is spectacle, and I'd say cheap spectacle except that so many guys are getting so seriously hurt and killed doing it. I want to see good racing. I want to see cut and thrust. Dive bombs up the inside under braking. But I don't want to see mangled cars and mangled bodies. After that hideous Greg Moore wreck in '99, I lost all interest in open wheel cars on ovals. It was just an unspeakable horror to see that car go into the wall, and I knew as soon as he pancaked, that he was dead as a door knob. Not my scene. He looked too much like my oldest boy.

[rpoz-29]

FWIW, I can remember when the "Grand National" (pre Winston/Nextel/cup)
cars ran the old short track in Richmond in the early, to mid 70's. Some of those guys were towing on open trailers, behind a cube van. Despite the pit crew altercations, the racing itself was pretty clean. If you ever catch one of the old races on speed channel, watch it. I can only assume they had so much of their own money in the cars, they couldn't afford to tear them up. A lot of drivers had sponsorship from the local dealership. When the privateers quit having a chance, and when NASCAR wants "Soccer Moms" in the stands instead of enthusiasts, it was all I needed. Money is their God. And wait until the end of the season and the teams with no chance of a championship quit running to cut their own costs. I still prefer an amateur road race to any pro series.

[rmackintosh]

This is the shame of NASCAR. Potentially great racers do nothing but go round and round. Everything is reduced to the lowest common denominator.

E
X
A
C
T
L
Y
!

(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[lateapex]

Tony Stewart had never road raced until he came to Nascar.  He sat on the pole his first time and has now won a couple of Nascar road races with some big name road racers in the field. 

Tony Stewart may have had more road race experience than you account. He won National championships in both the International Karting Federation and the World Karting Association. In America, much karting is on ovals, but both the “laydown” karts and the “sprint” type carts compete at some famous road courses. Currently, between the 2 sanctioning bodies, they are using: Portland International Raceway, Sears Point, Laguna Seca Raceway, Willow Springs Raceway, Seattle International Raceway, Carolina Motorsports Park, Mid Ohio Sports Car Course, VIRginia Intl Raceway, Summit Point Raceway, Putnam Park Road Course, Grattan Raceway, Road Atlanta, and other less well known tracks.

Most all European auto racers begin in karting, and that means on road courses. In Europe, most all auto and cycle racing is on road courses. The big new Eurospeedway oval track in Laustiz, Germany went bankrupt in 2002 and CART had to cancel the race that year. Europe’s ASCAR series, their version of NASCAR, is pretty much chuckled at by the racing-fan public. The opening event in England had 12,000 in attendance. The 24 hours of LeMans I attended had over 250,000 in attendance, and it was estimated that about 100,000 of them were British (they had to cross the channel to get there).

I am not saying that one form of racing is right or wrong, or that having a majority of fans means a series is more sophisticated. But … the closer a series comes to “spec racing” the less interested I become. I think that spec racing is appropriate for children learning to race. It keeps expenses down and gives you a better idea of who the more talented drivers are. As an adult watching adult drivers, I find it interesting to see creativity and invention in the development of the cars. I think there should be broad rules which everyone has to obey in a certain class, but still allow for much variety and ingenuity within those rules. I have enough problems with IMSA/ACO and their ever tightening rules. But NASCAR/GrandAm is a joke to me. It is approaching IROC. I’ve lost interest in the Speed World Challenge since I witnessed them penalizing the previous race winner with ballast. You spend money getting down to the minimum weight without compromising strength or safety, then they punish you for winning. I think it is un-sportsmanlike to “pre-engineer” the winner of a race. Let the best driver in the best car win. It forces the others to improve. It raises the level of competition. If “fans” will only watch a race when the top 10 finishers cross the finish line within 4 seconds of each other, then they aren’t autosports fans. Yea, throw a yellow 3 laps before the end to “bunch the cars up”. They are the kind of people who only watch a movie to see the accidents and explosions. There CAN be an intellectual component to watching car racing. Maybe NASCAR could control the cars remotely and we could have 6 abreast racing.

That said, I would watch NASCAR any weekend they ran on dirt, just like I still watch them when they run on road courses.

[AllZWay]

I would absolutely love to see IROC ran at several venues... ie... Dirt, ovals, drag strip, & road courses...and maybe even a rally. I have begged for that for years.

I really like the Speed World challenge since it the closest to good American road racing exept for the Runoffs... which I thoroughly enjoy, but I prefer to watch the Australian Supercars. It is fender on fender racing on road courses.

Ultimately, I prefer some type of control on cars....maybe not exactly spec, but at least some constraints. Otherwise it turns into F1... 200 million dollar budgets just to be competitive.

And while all racing always revolves around money.... it is nice to see racing that money isn't always King and actual DRIVING talents play a role in the outcome.

I guilty of watching any form of racing.... Australian Jet boats, lawnmowers, Florida swamp buggies.....etc. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif)

[Rob Hood]

IROC should expand its series to six races - two superspeedway for the NASCAR boys, two road courses, and two flat 1 mile ovals for the IRL'ers. Dirt is cool, but doesn't have the media draw to make enough mainstream money. It would be neat to use the home track's most commonly used vehicle, but that would create a significant cost that the sanctioning body can't absorb right now. Ultimately, the race series should try to include an F1 driver, with perhaps one of the road course races held in conjunction with the US F1 race. Of course, scheduling conflicts abound, so that may end up as a pipe dream.

[sgarnett]

I guilty of watching any form of racing.... Australian Jet boats, lawnmowers, Florida swamp buggies.....etc. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif)

I'll watch anything with a motor race. I'm not a diehard fan of any series, and don't really watch that much racing (can't, I'm busy autocrossing on Sundays), but I can enjoy all of it.

For that matter, I'd happily compete in any series that offered me a ride. Am I too proud to be a pro lawnmower racer? Heck no!

I do prefer the "privateer" races, though, simply because it's something I could conceivably do (or at least could have done, if I were younger and didn't have a kid), and the "run whatcha brung" varieties are always a hoot.

BTW, while they certainly aren't "grass roots", the Truck Grand Prix series is oddly fascinating to watch. Semis on road courses! Now who thought that one up?

[mitchntx]

Not trying to get this thread back on topic ...

http://sports.yahoo.com/nascar/news;_ylc=X...v=tsn&type=lgns

[Rob Hood]

Field is now up to 45 entries as of my posting. http://jayski.thatsracin.com/

I don't know Ms. Spencer's sports or literary background, but I am not too keen on "outside" publications discussing auto racing, regardless of which type. I',m pretty sure that the Sporting News does publish some auto-related publications, but again, I don't think they qualify to write on the subject as well as say, Chris Economaki's NSSN or some of the racing monthlies. I could be wrong and won't mind that.

However, I don't believe that one of Brian France's goals is cost containment. If that were so, then NASCAR would only have ONE set of body templates. There would be only ONE body style permitted, not one body style per type of track. There is an incredible amount of money being dumped into superspeedway bodies, intermediate bodies, and short track bodies, all for the right amount of downforce for the specific track. Having to maintain multiple cars just to have the right one for the right track is not cost-effective. NASCAR should only allow one car to be used. Build as many of that one car, but that body, engine/trans/rear/suspension should be the same (minus the typical adjustments and changes allowed) whether they race at Talladega, Bristol, or Watkins Glen. And the cars should not be of a "common template," either. Make the teams use a production or production-based body (the old factory backdoor "body in white") and build the car around that.

[AllZWay]

Mitch... I have been watching the outcome of not enough drivers showing up for a little over a week now.

Nascar had to offer some money to small teams to get the list to more than 43 and several of those teams are very small "Who dat's".

The $15 million dollar budgets are hard to swallow for many sponors and thus the dwindling fields. It will be interesting to see what Nascar does to help out this year.

[rmackintosh]

....uh oh.....do I see a chink in the good 'ol boys armor???? (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

hmmmmm....lets see....BIG EXPENSIVE RACE TEAMS......COSTS SOARING......SPONSORS GETTING HARDER TO FIND.......

....I KNOW I have seen some of these things in some other series recently......if I could ONLY remember....

(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

[NataSS Inc]

Just want to add my .02

I did a short stint in sprint cars and did a couple runs in a super moddifed rig. Yeah we went around in circles, but there was alot more to it than just going in circles after a 100 lap run I was mentally and physically fatigued beyond belief. Trying to pilot an 800+hp open wheeled car in a crowd was NO easy task. Everytime you lift off the throttle the car wants to jump to the left, if you ever got "behind your car" you would be on the next edition of "MAX X" or speedvision where they show the worst crashes. I loved being in those cars!

NASCAR on the hand, has been bastardized as of late. There isnt the feel there like there used to be. To much commercialism. When I ran open wheels stuff got ugly....alot. I think it was because there was alot more passion driving what we did due to small (see:non existant) bugets. Now you have HUGE industry names on cars and the drivers pimping the product like cheap little whores. When I hear a NASCAR driver say something to the effect of "I just want to thank pepsi for making this win possible" it makes my stomach churn. Do you really think pepsi had anything to do with the car other than swathing a big check to get the largest part of the car for a sticker? NO! What I like seeing is the guy that says "I just want to thank the mom and pop differential shop that rebuilt my rear end so I could even make this race".........anyways....I am rambling so I will shut up now.

BUT I do like to watch NASCAR.

[mitchntx]

Wind Tunnel with that Despain clown actually made a good point.

He said that Richard Childress had 4 road course cars, 4 short track cars, 4 intermediate cars, 4 Speedway cars and 4 super speedway cars for each of the 4 teams he oversees.

That is 60 freaking cars to build and maintain.

I'm sure Roush, DEI, Yates are all the same.

[robz71lm7]

I usually stay out of these NASCAR good or bad threads because I'm tired of them but in short... I'm a NASCAR fan and I used to really love the series. I think it's just "ok" now. Lately it is so commericalized and with the new points system it's become really degraded. I liked it better in the early to mid '90's. If it could be what it was then, modernize the cars a little, and run more road courses it would be PERFECT (for me anyways).

I don't have the speed channel so I miss out on a lot of the trans am and world challenge type stuff. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

EDIT: I tend to agree with NataSS when it comes to the commercialization.

This post has been edited by robz71lm7: Feb 20 2004, 10:07 PM

[lateapex]

He said that Richard Childress had 4 road course cars, 4 short track cars, 4 intermediate cars, 4 Speedway cars and 4 super speedway cars for each of the 4 teams he oversees.

That is 60 freaking cars to build and maintain.

Mitch,
I may be older than you, but I can still multiply. 5 categories x 4 cars x 4 teams equals 80 cars. Less the ones they wadded up to get more sponsor air time. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)

[Rob Hood]

Boyce, Pepsi probably paid for the "mom and pop" differential to get built nowadays in NASCAR, due to the escalating costs. That's at least one reason that Pepsi gets mentioned in the pre-race/during-the-race/post-race interview, since Pepsi is primarily footing the bill. Another way to look at this is with Pepsi footing the bill, more people are now employed in NASCAR-related companies (teams, support infrastructure, component manufacturers, etc.) than ever before. So what if Pepsi is all over the car? That's no different than F1 or CART or IRL or any other top tier series. I'm on your side as well on the commercialization issue. I wish it wasn't as bad as it is. It gets in the way of the race. And NBC's coverage (Nuthin' But Commercials) is pathetic. Even their producer admitted he didn't know much about covering a race. ESPN's coverage was much better, but Fox is pretty good.

Mitch's comment on the number of cars further reinforces my point of having only one car built vice a specific car for a track. That would significantly reduce costs. I highly doubt that 80 cars would be needed then, perhaps only 10 total. But the way that NASCAR has written the rules (and keeps re-writing them), the competition has gotten so tight that most race-day fields are only separated by a couple of seconds (Is a spec Miata race field much different, at least through the first few rows?)

NASCAR is a circus, no different than any other race series or professional sport being played today - but it's the best circus now. Open-wheel racing in America is dying, and that is unfortunate. I was fortunate to attend the Indy 500 twice before the split. To me, Indy no longer holds the same appeal since the split. It would be great to see that race's reputation repaired, particularly since it is a longer running event and has a lot more world-wide history attached.

[mitchntx]

Bob, why do you think I described my source as "that clown Despain".

Mitch "saving face" Warren

(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

[ESPCamaro]

If you need to hear someone thank the local mom and pop differential service for letting them win the race, go to a local short track.

Nascar is a professional series. Not a bunch of local short trackers.

And in case some haven't followed Nascar long (I have since around 91, and keep up on Nascar happenings of the past) It has been commercialized for a LONG, LONG, time.

Hell even back in the 60's BIG MONEY was forked over for some teams. You don't see any more Factory backed teams do you?

Budweiser has been a Nascar sponsor for how long? And Pennzoil, Valvoline, Havoline, Soft Drink companies, the list goes on.

The only difference now is that Cup cars are faster, have more technology, and cars/teams/drivers are more competitive. Not sure how that makes cup cars WORSE than they were at ANY point.

The only downside to Nascar today is big E is no longer with us. You either had a guy to HATE, or you had a guy to love. Either way it was better when he was still racin'.


And the proposed points system is GREAT!! How in the world did Matt Kenseth Deserve to win a championship? He produced almost ZERO real results. How many poles? How many laps/races led? How many wins?

Your Nascar champ should have been Ryan Newman. And suffice to say I'm NOT a fan of his.

[Rob Hood]

When NASCAR first announced the change in the points system, I was really against it. But the more I looked into it, I think it makes some sense. All NASCAR is doing is making official what has been happening all along. If you are 20th in points with 10 races to go, you probably aren't going to contend for the championship. But you still can contend for a win and get your sponsor some good air time.

However, I really wouldn't want to be the guy who is either 401 points back, or in 11th place. And it is a playoff, no different than baseball, football, or basketball. And I also believe that NASCAR did make the change with TV ratings in mind, since the last 10 races have to compete with football TV ratings.

[robz71lm7]

I'm going to disagree Lonnie. I feel NASCAR has become even more comericialized in the past few years. Even moreso since the switch to NBC/Fox from ESPN/TNN. With NBC and Fox it seems as if commercials have dramatically increased as well as advertisements during the coverage.

[Chris 96 WS6]

Great technical discussion of Nextel Cup motors:

http://web.camaross.com/forums/showthread....15&pagenumber=1

[AllZWay]

WOW!!! and not one Nascar bashing post in it. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[rmackintosh]

WOW!!! and not one Nascar bashing post in it. 

....I thought NASCRAP bashing was a SPORT!.....

(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

[Rob Hood]

Nah, that's just your jealousy showing... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[rmackintosh]

Wanna bash NASCRAP some more????

How about Joe Ruttmann, Kirk Shelmerdine, and Andy Hillenburg?

We all know that they couldn't fill the field last race....and decided to run the OUTSTANDING fellows above in order to "avoid embarassment"......

Joe Ruttmann was black flagged the first lap because HE DIDN'T HAVE A PIT CREW!!! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif)

Kirk Shelmerdine was black flagged after 8 minutes because the FEILD had lapped him and he couldn't keep up!!!! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

And Andy Hillenburg finshed 17 LAPS DOWN....WITH NO TROUBLE on the day!!! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)

Lookin' more like ENTERTAINMENT every damn day.....

(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

[mitchntx]

Damn Randy ... how much coffee have you had today?

(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[AllZWay]

Hey... You can't blame those three guys though. They each brought home a check for $50,000 for a piece of a days work.

Nascar was allowing these fillers because their TV Contract requires a full field at each race.

[rmackintosh]

Hey... You can't blame those three guys though. They each brought home a check for $50,000 for a piece of a days work.

Nascar was allowing these fillers because their TV Contract requires a full field at each race.

....no.....I don't blame those guys....heck....if I'ld have known, I would have mounted some 4' X 8' sheets of aluminum on the sides and roof of MY CAR AND RUN! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

it is the entertainment "organization" known as NASCRAP that I laugh at.... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

[rmackintosh]

Damn Randy ... how much coffee have you had today?

....don't drink coffee....just HATE NASCAR....OK....I will go back to my lair now.... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

[AllZWay]

I think Randy has issues that would be best dealt with his shrink. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

[rmackintosh]

I think Randy has issues that would be best dealt with his shrink. 

....naw....I get em all out when I am on the track!

(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)