Is there an RRAX specific 4th Gen buyer's guide?, What to look for, options et al Options

[teamDFL]

I am considering the purchase of a dedicated event car to take to HPDEs, Time Trials and Hillclimbs. I will most likely contest a Street Prepared class during the timed events, but have not made a final decision. The value represented by the 4th Gen F-body is attractive. I have yet to uncover a single source buyer's that details perfomance affecting year-over-year changes and options. Is there such a thing? Any links or attempts at putting together a brief one here would be appreciated.

This post has been edited by teamDFL: Nov 21 2005, 01:16 PM

[sgarnett]

I would pick a Firebird body. There's a little more room in the fenders, so fitting 315s will be a little easier. You can still run them on a Camaro too, but you may have to go a little further with rolling the fenders, cutting bumpstops, etc.

The lightest V8 Firebird is probably going to be the Formula.

Transmission gearing was lower in 93 - 2.97 with a 3.something option (or maybe the other way around). 94+ got the 2.66 close ratio first.

A few SS and Firehawk cars got the LT4 in 97, but those are rare.

98+ got the LS1 engine, but the PCM is better for 99+ so I would avoid the 98. The 93~97 LT1 is a little heavier, but it has fantastic throttle response at the bottom end.

There are year to year differences in the LS1 cam, manifolds, injectors, etc, but I don't have all the breakover dates memorized. I'm sure you can find a list somewhere, though.

LS1 cars got better brakes, but LT1 cars got better hydraulics. It's a lot easier to convert an LT1 car to LS1 front brakes than it is to convert an LS1 car to LT1 hydraulics.

Most of the suspension differences are things you will replace anyway.

[trackbird]

Well, this is as good of a place as any to piece together a buyers guide. I'll start with some changes that I know, and some that we need years for (when they did it), as we get that info, we can build it into a sticky or at least a concise post.

1993 uses an eprom, not a flash programmable memory.

1996 (was it 1996?) was the first year of OBD II, some LT1 guys are switching back to OBD I computers.

1998 is the first year of the LS1.

2001 and 2002 LS1 cars got a smaller cam but also have the LS6 intake from the Z06. Some claim that those years dyno stronger, but mine didn't. They also have no EGR valve and plumbing on those years.

SS's (from all years as I remember) had the 32mm front sway bar (you'll want a 35mm anyway).

Somewhere they swapped from an Auburn limited slip to the Torsen (I'm thinking it was 1998, but I may be very wrong).

If anyone sees any errors in that, let me know.

[Soma07]

http://www.f-body.org/faq/4/index.htm

That's a good place to start. Its a bit dated but still very useful.

The 01-02 cars are probably the best of the 4th Gen's but you're going to pay for them too. Of the older cars the 95's are probably the best although the 94's are close. The 93's are the redheaded stepchild of the group although if you can find a deal on one I certainly wouldn't pass it up.

[trackbird]

The 93's are the redheaded stepchild of the group although if you can find a deal on one I certainly wouldn't pass it up.

I was thinking that, but I couldn't remember all the reasons why.

[John_D.]

Somewhere they swapped from an Auburn limited slip to the Torsen (I'm thinking it was 1998, but I may be very wrong).

'98 was the last year for the Auburn, 99+ got the Torsen.

[jensend]

Unless you are going to remove the headlight assemblies, you will find that the Firebirds are more nose heavy than the Camaros. Don't remember the exact total figure, but I believe it was over 90# for the pair.

[teamDFL]

Unless you are going to remove the headlight assemblies, you will find that the Firebirds are more nose heavy than the Camaros. Don't remember the exact total figure, but I believe it was over 90# for the pair.

Is nose weight a problem on these cars? The engine setback is significant, but I must confess that I don't know what the approximate balance is. As I am in a FWD car now, anything below 65% front weight is OK.

[trackbird]

I thought I saw that the 4th gens were 57/43 F/R. The third gens were more like 53/47. The engine is set back, but not really. Since the third gen driveshaft fits, the trans fits and all of it is the same length, the nose is just longer on the 4th gens (or it seems so), or I should say the windshield is out over the motor adding weight up front.

[Soma07]

Unless you are going to remove the headlight assemblies, you will find that the Firebirds are more nose heavy than the Camaros. Don't remember the exact total figure, but I believe it was over 90# for the pair.

Not a chance, unless the assembly's are made of depleted uranium the difference is closer to 15-20lbs (if that). There simply isn't that much to them...

I was thinking that, but I couldn't remember all the reasons why.

The biggest differences are:

1. Better gearing with the 6speeds
2. Speed Density vs. MAF ECM
3. Reprogramming requires burning chips instead of plugging into the ALDL port
4. Batch fire instead of sequential injection

There are a handful of other, really minor differences but those are the only ones that really matter. As you can see most of it is related to the engine management system. That said 93's run just as well as the 94-97 cars, they're just different.

[jensend]

By headlight assemblies, I mean the lights, motors and drive mechanisms. I'd be surprised if all of that was only #10 per side.

[robz71lm7]

'93's also have unique/specific front brakes to that year only. the brakes don't matter if you're going to swap them for LS1 brakes. They came with one of two unique T56's which came with either 2.73 or 3.23 rear ends. One of them is desireable for Solo Street Prepared classes.

For LT1 cars you want a '95 first and a '94 second. '95 is the best because it has a vented opti and more timing chain options yet is the desireable OBDI computer. '94 is the same, but it has a non-vented opti. '94 also doesn't have a traction control if that bothers you. Some '95's I believe have the OBDII plug on an OBDI computer which can be a pita. Ask Kirby on the board. '96 and '97 aren't bad but they are OBDII. '97 has the nice interior. I don't know for sure but I'd bet the '97's with the new interior are heavier, but that is just a wild ass guess.

I'd look for a Formula (less body work for big tires) hardtop first and a Camaro hardtop second. Hardtops before t-tops.

For LS1's I'd look for a '01-'02 first since they had the LS6 intake and better clutch. Then I'd look at the '99-'00's since they come standard with the better diff. The '98's last because of the diff and the fact their cylinder liners allow for less of a cleanup hone should you need an engine rebuild. '98's also have perimeter bolt valce covers as opposed to '99+ centerbolt valve covers. Just like before, you want a stripped down hardtop.

1LE doesn't really matter unless you're going to leave the car stock. Also be aware that 4th gen B4C's are the SAME as Z28's. Don't waste your money on any of the SLP/ASC cars.

I'd look for a rust free car from the south or west. It's nice working on a car and not finding every fastener frozen.

[Mojave]

1LE doesn't really matter unless you're going to leave the car stock. Also be aware that 4th gen B4C's are the SAME as Z28's. Don't waste your money on any of the SLP/ASC cars.

I believe the B4C's were the only LS1's to come with manual windows/locks. Too bad almost all of them are autos (but look around! there are some 01-02 B4C's with the 6 speed).

[trackbird]

1LE doesn't really matter unless you're going to leave the car stock.  Also be aware that 4th gen B4C's are the SAME as Z28's.  Don't waste your money on any of the SLP/ASC cars.

I believe the B4C's were the only LS1's to come with manual windows/locks. Too bad almost all of them are autos (but look around! there are some 01-02 B4C's with the 6 speed).

Nope. Pimpmaro (our fearless mod) has a 2002 Z28, manual windows, manual locks, no cruise, no defrost, nothing.....

It has a monsoon (factory Z28 option) and AC. It's a hardtop, with cloth seats, etc. If you bought a camaro and checked the box for "Z28" and nothing else, you'd get his car. Not a B4C, not a 1LE. Just STRIPPED. So, I can tell you that they are out there and you don't need a B4C to get one, at least not in 2002.

[Pilot]

Aye aye captain! I am proof that you can get all the engine and none of the gadgets in one nice neat little package. There are only two ways to get it with less. A v6 model, or in the white. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Blainefab]

For a donor CMC car, a TransAm would be my pick - everything that makes it heavier than the other Fbods will go away during race prep. The foam front bumper takes a few pounds off the nose compared to the rubber eggcrate of the Camaro. The T/A spoiler unbolts cleanly, leaving a broad, flat space for a proper spoiler.

Yearwise, 93 is the clear choice - useable 5th gear, PROM based PCM shortcomings are a don't care under class rules, older therefore cheaper.

For a less restricted class, go with an LS1 car, 99+ has an oil pump issue fixed (?), differences between models can be erased, tho the Pontiacs have a bit better aero and more rear fender clearance.

Early LT1 cars can be upgraded to the vented opti along with a cam and timing set/cover change. 94/95 PCM's have less expensive programming options, and 96 can run a 94/95 PCM.

[teamDFL]

Thanks for all the posts. Would I be correct in saying that if budget dictates an LT1 powered car, that any pre-96 non-T top is going to be a good starting point? Seems to me like there is a difference of opinion on some of the stuff, but any Camaro or Firebird 1993, 1994 or 1995 is about equal and the best advice is the standard "buy the best you can afford".

Can someone explain the gearing difference alluded to in this thread. Since Street Prepared allows update and backdate, would it be advantageous to run a 1993 transmission coupled to a later rear axle? Lower gearing in the box and lower gearing in the rear end? The high top speed potential of the car I have little use for.

[trackbird]

This car is beautiful (I've seen it).

http://frrax.com/rrforum/index.php?act=ST&...&f=6&t=6177&hl=

[sgarnett]

Since Street Prepared allows update and backdate, would it be advantageous to run a 1993 transmission coupled to a later rear axle? Lower gearing in the box and lower gearing in the rear end? The high top speed potential of the car I have little use for.

You aren't the first to suggest it, but donor trannies can be hard to find. I think Lonnie is buying a car to part out so he can keep the transmission (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) You could buy all 93-spec gears for a 94~97, but that's going to be expensive. The 93 transmission can't be used with a 98+ LS1.

The GTO transmission has the same gears 1~4 as the 93 f-body 2.97 option (I think the overdrives are different), and fits an LS!, but it isn't legal in ESP.

[teamDFL]

This car is beautiful (I've seen it).

http://frrax.com/rrforum/index.php?act=ST&...&f=6&t=6177&hl=

I am sure it is, but unfortunately, it is more than I can afford at this time.

[teamDFL]

Since Street Prepared allows update and backdate, would it be advantageous to run a 1993 transmission coupled to a later rear axle?  Lower gearing in the box and lower gearing in the rear end?  The high top speed potential of the car I have little use for.

You aren't the first to suggest it, but donor trannies can be hard to find. I think Lonnie is buying a car to part out so he can keep the transmission (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) You could buy all 93-spec gears for a 94~97, but that's going to be expensive. The 93 transmission can't be used with a 98+ LS1.

The GTO transmission has the same gears 1~4 as the 93 f-body 2.97 option (I think the overdrives are different), and fits an LS!, but it isn't legal in ESP.

So perhaps then the purchase of a 93 would be a better idea? Seems like the 3.42:1 rear is a common fitment for many years of V8 F-body and I imagine it would not be hard to source one.

Is the gearing all that important? Thus far, I have spent my life with small peaky motors. An LT1 will have 1.2 liters displacement more than my last two cars combined, so I don't want to make the assumption that this is worth pursuing.

[robz71lm7]

Buy a '93 then. It's much, much easier than finding a used '93 tranny. There are two '93 transmissions.

As for B4C's and options in the previous posts mine came with a Bose stereo and a power driver's seat-both of which are now gone. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

[robz71lm7]

'94-'02 F-body T56
2.66
1.78
1.30
1.00
0.75
0.50

'93 (2.73 rear)
3.36
2.07
1.35
1.00
0.80
0.62


'93 (3.23 rear)
2.97
2.07
1.43
1.00
0.80
0.62

[CMC#5]

Given your goals, I would say that any of the LT1s will work great and you should focus on getting the least beat up drivertrain for the money you want to spend. The later model opti is much nicer because it is more reliable and it is cheaper to replace, but even that is not a huge deal. The difference to me would be worth upwards of two times the differential between the optis. In other words, equal cost of cars I'd get a 95, but I'd take a 93 if it were $500 or more cheaper and everything else is identical.

I wouldnt worry too much about the trans gearing. It'll be a long time before the differences in these trannies will equate to a tangible performance difference, and by that point there is no "best" answer...it'll depend on the track.

[CMC #37]

Great advice here! I would grab a Formula for the weight savings if this is a street car.

[Soma07]

So perhaps then the purchase of a 93 would be a better idea? Seems like the 3.42:1 rear is a common fitment for many years of V8 F-body and I imagine it would not be hard to source one.

It won't be hard at all to find a 3.42 rear end as all of the 6 speed cars (except the 93's) came with them. Plus drag racers frequently sell them for next to nothing when they upgrade to a 12bolt or a 9". I bought mine complete (but without brakes) for $200 a few years back.

As far as the different 93 transmission's go the one you want is the M29 (should be listed on the options label in the glovebox). All M29 cars also came with 3.23 gears which are option code GU5 (also listed on the options label). Luckily 99% of the 93's out there have this transmission.

The alternate 93 tranny is the M28 which came with a 2.73 rear end. From what I understand these are very, very rare. I remember seeing the production numbers at one point and fewer than 100 cars were made like this.

Does the 93 gearing make much of a difference? I'm not sure, it does make 5th gear more usable but thats not an issue for autocrossing. JeffM who has a 94 Trans Am w/3.42's has driven my car and I don't think he noticed the difference.

[teamDFL]

Given your goals, I would say that any of the LT1s will work great and you should focus on getting the least beat up drivetrain for the money you want to spend.

At what point is the drivetrain considered beat? I have found locally an LS powered car for ~$5500 with 120,000 miles. I know on some motors, that is next to nothing. How about the LS? Are LTs similar?

[robz71lm7]

5500 for an LS1 with 120K miles? That sounds awfully cheap. The LS1 is better no doubt. It's lighter, easier to work on, more potential with the stock heads, and I'd say a little bit stouter in stock form. For SP it's a toss-up in my opinion-both cars can be made to win. Even if you get out of SP, stock bottom end LT1's with ported stock head castings are commonly putting out over 400 rwhp now. The thing to remember when comparing reliability is a lot the LT1 cars out there have more miles on them than LS1's.

[teamDFL]

http://raleigh.craigslist.org/car/112591931.html
I called, auotmatic trans.

[teamDFL]

I made a quick Excel spreadsheet using a stock LT1 dyno I found online and the different gearing options. I left the rear axle ratio constant at 3.42 even though they don't come that way stock. Each tab represents a different gearbox.

Ideally, the shift point is where the horsepower curve in one gear intersects the other. Unfortunately, this never happens on the LT1 no matter which gearbox is run, as far as I can tell. The engine needs more RPM.

Spreadsheet - right click, save as please

My current car for comparison - right click, save as again please Obviously, I have not formatted the X axis the same as the LT1 version, but you get the idea hopefully.

Let me know if I screwed this up.

This post has been edited by teamDFL: Nov 22 2005, 09:15 PM

[Soma07]

At what point is the drivetrain considered beat? I have found locally an LS powered car for ~$5500 with 120,000 miles. I know on some motors, that is next to nothing. How about the LS? Are LTs similar?

Lets put it this way, I have just over 205k on my LT1 and it still runs awesome. In fact I just did an Evo school this Sunday where I probably put a good 25 runs on it and it never missed a beat.

I had to replace the clutch at ~120k and aside from that and a few waterpumps its been pretty trouble free. The rearend is considered "weak" but as long as you're not drag racing on slicks it will hold up fine.

Also Karen on this board has a 96 Camaro with over 300k and I believe she still runs it regularly too.

[Mojave]

1LE doesn't really matter unless you're going to leave the car stock.  Also be aware that 4th gen B4C's are the SAME as Z28's.  Don't waste your money on any of the SLP/ASC cars.

I believe the B4C's were the only LS1's to come with manual windows/locks. Too bad almost all of them are autos (but look around! there are some 01-02 B4C's with the 6 speed).

Nope. Pimpmaro (our fearless mod) has a 2002 Z28, manual windows, manual locks, no cruise, no defrost, nothing.....

It has a monsoon (factory Z28 option) and AC. It's a hardtop, with cloth seats, etc. If you bought a camaro and checked the box for "Z28" and nothing else, you'd get his car. Not a B4C, not a 1LE. Just STRIPPED. So, I can tell you that they are out there and you don't need a B4C to get one, at least not in 2002.

Oh wow. I didn't know that. I have the window sticker for my 99 Formula, and the only option listed is security system, which includes keyless entry and theft deterant system. The car came with Monsoon, power windows/locks/mirrors, defrost, cruise, power antenna and cloth seats all listed as 'standard.'

I wanted a Camaro, but I found this low option hard top Formula in good shape and I couldnt pass it up.

[teamDFL]

OK, I think I have a decent handle on the differences between models and years, so on to part two. How good an HPDE and Solo I type event car is a fourth gen f-body? Now, I realize that this is a biased group, however, I am not expecting you to put aside you bias, just give an honest appraisal of the overall amount of work and maintenance needed to run one of these cars successfully.

For example, the average Mustang guys loves his car, but when push comes to shove, he will tell you it is a pretty crappy track car as you have to completely rework both ends of the suspension. That makes the car expensive to get ready. Once properly setup, however, the car is very rewarding.

Similarly, Honda guys will tell you that the cars are durable and fun, however if you want power enough to run with the big dogs, you will need major amounts of cash as the lack of displacement means forced induction is a must and the engines simply aren't built for that.

If I could get a few (hopefully more detailed) synopsis of the 4th gen f-body, I would greatly appreciate it. This platform is number one on my list of next cars, I just would rather know what I am getting into.

[trackbird]

You can fix 99% of the "ills" with shocks, springs and sway bars. Really.

Koni's are one of the most popular choices (and what I run). Springs are based on what you want to do. There are a few schools of thought here.

Big bars/small springs
Big bars/huge springs

Both seem to work and people will fight endlessly about them.

Sway bars are typically a 35mm front (solid or hollow) and a 21 solid or 22 hollow rear. Unless you lower your PHB mounts on the axle, then you may up your rear springs and use a 25mm bar.

Throw in a good alignment and brake pads and "go".

The cars work amazingly well off of the show room floor. They are better with sway bars and shocks (and can be quite good with just that). Springs will round out the package nicely.

Unlike the Mustang, these cars do handle well and are easy to make faster. I never figured out why everyone races Fox bodies (and the SN94 and up). They need a complete redesign to do what we do nearly stock. Of course we are a good bit heavier, but the cars make good power and LS1's come with decent brakes (just add race pads).

The LT1's make good power and the LS1's make a bit more (20-60 hp....depending who you ask). More power is available as your budget allows (headers/exhaust, cam, etc).

LT1's brakes are a weak point.

3rd gens are great, but have small brakes and lower power outputs (small block Chevy power makes them cheaper to fix....to a point).

All can run very well.

2001-2002 cars have a better intake and a truck cam (out of a 6.0 liter escalade). They seem to make more torque and similar HP (some claim more hp, but mine was about like the earlier years).

1998-2000 cars have EGR plumbing which makes changing plugs a pain in the rear.

2001 and 2002 get upgraded clutch and hydraulics (Z06 clutch and better hydraulics).

LT1 clutches can be very expensive (just as a warning). (otherwise, you'll need more LT1 info from the LT1 guys. I find them harder to work on, but good cars otherwise).

[Soma07]

Unlike the Mustang, these cars do handle well and are easy to make faster. I never figured out why everyone races Fox bodies (and the SN94 and up). They need a complete redesign to do what we do nearly stock. Of course we are a good bit heavier, but the cars make good power and LS1's come with decent brakes (just add race pads).

Ditto (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) I don't think we're that much heavier though (3400lbs vs. 3200ish). F-bodies are a bit wider/lower which seems to put off some people though.

LT1's brakes are a weak point.

Yes, but fortunately an LS1 brake swap is very cheap and easy.

LT1 clutches can be very expensive

Actually I just think you LS1 guys are spoiled with your cheap Z06 clutches (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I think I paid ~$350 for my "LT4 Clutch" from SLP a few years back and its holding up great. On the plus side LT1 cars have never had the hydraulic problems that seem to plauge the early LS1 cars and the stock LT1 clutch is pretty strong to begin with.

Anyhow suspension wise I think these cars push alot and have too much body roll stock. Fortunately a good alignment, a 35mm front bar, and good shocks will cure 90% of that.

[trackbird]

Ok, I should say that the Centerforce LT1 clutch is $500+ (and probably going up soon). LT1's do not have hydraulic issues, that's very true.

I put a Centerforce in my LS1 car, it's more expensive than the Z06, but I really like it. Since I was doing a flywheel, I threw a new clutch in it.

LS1 brake swap is cheap ($250 or less) and easy (bolts right on). I forgot to mention that.

[GlennCMC70]

my 98 is one of those rare cars. 2 options - Z rated tires and Monsoon radio. its not a 1LE and its a hardtop. it has no fog lights and i had to install the electric hatch release myself (all you need is the button for the dash and the solinoid that bolts to the latch on the hatch, all the wires are pre-run). when it was stock it was arounf 3550 w/ my 200lbs ass. it was kinda light before the cage and subframes, STB, yada, yada, yada........

[teamDFL]

OK, so the second tier track consumables such as

wheel bearings
ball joints
calipers
bushings

and the like are all pretty durable? I found that brakes and tires are a budgetable cost for all cars. It is the second tier stuff that can brake the bank quickly. A car the needs a set of wheel bearings every third event is just a PITA and eventually a financial drain.

Thanks again. A support group like exists here is a big plus.

This post has been edited by teamDFL: Dec 2 2005, 01:05 PM

[trackbird]

Stick to GM wheel bearings (I've heard that the National Bearing version is good as well). You may change one set a year on the front (most get longer than that, but someone here might not). You can order them for about $165 per side (it's a sealed unit with the ABS sensor in it) from team chevrolet (and Sam at Stranoparts.com carries the National or he did when I asked him about them).

Caliper spread (from heat) can be an issue for some (I don't remember the cost on them though). Rotors are not bad (autozone are inexpensive and work for many), I use Brembo OEM rotors ($80-ish as I remember).