[Major_Lee_Slow]

I've always had a soft spot for the Z-Cars ever since the early 70's, and I just read the Car and Driver short review of the car and I must say, at least on paper, I am impressed. the exterior dimensions and the wheelbase were shrunk and the HP is up to 330, but torque is a little low at 270. I wonder how much that can be improved. The wheels are a little bit, 19 inches, but hey at least there not 20's. It also comes with 4 piston brakes. They managed to keep the weight at 3300-3400 lbs, meet the new crash test standards, and Nissan claims the car is stiffer than the last model. The question is, will it be a competitive Street Prepaired car. I think the current model runs in BSP. Could this be a potential replacement for the SS when the time comes. I'm not sure, but I do know for sure I won't be buying a 2 Ton pig.

[BigEnos]

I've always had a soft spot for the Z-Cars ever since the early 70's, and I just read the Car and Driver short review of the car and I must say, at least on paper, I am impressed. the exterior dimensions and the wheelbase were shrunk and the HP is up to 330, but torque is a little low at 270. I wonder how much that can be improved. The wheels are a little bit, 19 inches, but hey at least there not 20's. It also comes with 4 piston brakes. They managed to keep the weight at 3300-3400 lbs, meet the new crash test standards, and Nissan claims the car is stiffer than the last model. The question is, will it be a competitive Street Prepaired car. I think the current model runs in BSP. Could this be a potential replacement for the SS when the time comes. I'm not sure, but I do know for sure I won't be buying a 2 Ton pig.

I can tell you for sure, it will not be competitive in BSP. Not much is these days.

[00 SS]

Not that GM couldn't make the Camaro smaller or a little lighter, but if they did, would the LS2/3 or what ever V8 variant they decided on fit? Would the lighter weight drivetrain hold the torque? Maybe there is a reason Nissan limited the torque to only 270. On the other hand, the rear suspension on the Camaro appears to be designed by Peterbuilt. I can't image how they could add any more weight to it. The 'vette and Solstice rear suspensions are far more elegant and lighter looking so I don't quite understand what happened on the Camaro. But the 370 is not my style.

[mitchntx]

Not related to this topic, but ...

I saw a Sub-Lime Green with flat black striped Challenger R/T on a dealer lot today ...

OMG ... that car looked bad-ass!

[poSSum]

My rhetorical question is, "what would it weight with a back seat and a 400+ HP V8? "

Personally, neither the new Camaro or a Z car interest me ... I'm dreaming LS3/T56 into our Solstice .... forget the classes .... I'll be autoXn for fun! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/cool2.gif)

[Mojave]

My rhetorical question is, "what would it weight with a back seat and a 400+ HP V8? "

Personally, neither the new Camaro or a Z car interest me ... I'm dreaming LS3/T56 into our Solstice .... forget the classes .... I'll be autoXn for fun! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/cool2.gif)

A V8 Solstice sounds amazing, until you realize how heavy they are. I think the Mallet conversion cars were coming in around 3000 lbs, and at that weight, I'd rather just take the C6.

[rmackintosh]

Not related to this topic, but ...

I saw a Sub-Lime Green with flat black striped Challenger R/T on a dealer lot today ...

OMG ... that car looked bad-ass!

Yeah....those new Challengers DO look hot! Not the Lime Green one though.....and that is the MAIN color on my race car! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

I have seen silver and black ones that look sweet!

[pknowles]

I'm with Brian, it will not be competitive in the current BSP.

This post has been edited by pknowles: Dec 3 2008, 01:27 PM

[raybob9289]

Not that GM couldn't make the Camaro smaller or a little lighter, but if they did, would the LS2/3 or what ever V8 variant they decided on fit? Would the lighter weight drivetrain hold the torque? Maybe there is a reason Nissan limited the torque to only 270. On the other hand, the rear suspension on the Camaro appears to be designed by Peterbuilt. I can't image how they could add any more weight to it. The 'vette and Solstice rear suspensions are far more elegant and lighter looking so I don't quite understand what happened on the Camaro. But the 370 is not my style.

Get me a picture Mitch!!!

[Major_Lee_Slow]

Didn't the 300ZX use to run in ESP? It wasn't very competitive there, I wonder why they thought the 350Z would need to be placed in BSP?

[sgarnett]

FWIW, you can now buy kits to drop an LSx drivetrain (with T-bird diff, I think) into a Miata without too much pain ....

[pknowles]

FWIW, you can now buy kits to drop an LSx drivetrain (with T-bird diff, I think) into a Miata without too much pain ....

I've been thinking about that swap for a fun DD that would knock down great mpg's. I think someone makes a kit that uses the CTS-V diff as well.

[ESPCamaro]

Didn't the 300ZX use to run in ESP? It wasn't very competitive there, I wonder why they thought the 350Z would need to be placed in BSP?

N/A versions did I think...

T/T 300's were always in BSP.

Hard to compete with a 2900lb car w/AWD and more power than anything else.....On top of small, big tires, pretty good chassis.


I'd bet that the most competitive BSP car apart from the AWD cars is going to be a new 135i BMW. Great power and torque, small, not that heavy in S/P trim.

This post has been edited by ESPCamaro: Dec 3 2008, 04:22 PM

[rmackintosh]

FWIW, you can now buy kits to drop an LSx drivetrain (with T-bird diff, I think) into a Miata without too much pain ....

...yeah but then you'ld have a POLISHED turd...... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)

[BigEnos]

Didn't the 300ZX use to run in ESP? It wasn't very competitive there, I wonder why they thought the 350Z would need to be placed in BSP?

N/A versions did I think...

T/T 300's were always in BSP.

Hard to compete with a 2900lb car w/AWD and more power than anything else.....On top of small, big tires, pretty good chassis.


I'd bet that the most competitive BSP car apart from the AWD cars is going to be a new 135i BMW. Great power and torque, small, not that heavy in S/P trim.

Early 911 with a 3.2 carrera engine and all the tire you could stuff under it would be killer if it wasn't for the rally cars. Probably cost $50K to properly build, though. I imagine it'd be ~2500lbs and maybe 250-260RWHP. I'm no Porsche expert so I might be off base with those numbers.

[pknowles]

Early 911 with a 3.2 carrera engine and all the tire you could stuff under it would be killer if it wasn't for the rally cars. Probably cost $50K to properly build, though. I imagine it'd be ~2500lbs and maybe 250-260RWHP. I'm no Porsche expert so I might be off base with those numbers.

As long as we are bench racing, I would look at the turbo Miata before an old 911. If the rally cars went to ASP.

[Todd]

As long as we are bench racing, I would look at the turbo Miata before an old 911. If the rally cars went to ASP.

consistent traction is a serious issue with the turbo miatas...you either have a clutch diff that slips under power or a torsen that breaks the rear...i killed a buddies torsen a couple weeks ago. Under power, the miata LOVES to wheel hop. the torsen gears like to exit the diff casing!! :eek: with just over 200RWHP

[BigEnos]

As long as we are bench racing, I would look at the turbo Miata before an old 911. If the rally cars went to ASP.

consistent traction is a serious issue with the turbo miatas...you either have a clutch diff that slips under power or a torsen that breaks the rear...i killed a buddies torsen a couple weeks ago. Under power, the miata LOVES to wheel hop. the torsen gears like to exit the diff casing!! :eek: with just over 200RWHP

I think you could get a stout enough unit in there that would hold up OK. That is a good point, Phil. I think the turbo miata would be a good contender in an "ASP rally car" world.

[NJSPEEDER]

GM vehicles tend to be heavier because they want to have a safe, 5 star rated, corporate culture. Every single GM vehicle will be 5 star at some point. Nissan doesn't seem interested in that route.

[jensend]

The sad fact for people who really like performance cars is that virtually all cars come loaded with equipment and option packages that add substantially to vehicle weight. My son, who works at a honda dealership, said that you can't even get a Civic without power windows, A/C, and a host of other "essential" items. His '89 Civic commuter car had no options, a primitive FI system and a 1.5 liter engine. It got an honest 38 combined mpg and roughly 44 mpg on the highway. His new "high tech" Civic Si struggles to get 32 highway mpg because it's heavier and equipped with "essentail options". According to my son, people just won't buy a car that isn't heavily equipped. Manufacturers design and build to that demand.

This week's Autoweek had an article on the new Pontiac G8 GXP. The specs listed 415HP, 415lb./ft., 6.2 liter V8. RWD, 6 Spd. Manual trans.. Zero -60 4.6 sec.! The most powerful modern Pontiac- ever. The bad news- 17mpg (EPA). Why- curb weight 4,023 lb.! That's over 2 tons empty, roughly the weight of a 80's era Lincoln Continental! Imagine how much real performance is compromised by that bulk.

Those of us who put performance above luxury are a very small, virtually insignificant percentage of the market. We want "sport cars" and cars that have high levels of performance. The bulk of the market wants "muscle cars" loaded with luxury and enough power to impress the SUV in the next lane. Manufacturers design for profitablity and sales volume. Unless the public demands more realistic cars both in terms of economy and performance, we can expect cars to continue to increase in luxury and weight at the price of true performance.

[Major_Lee_Slow]

Here's the thing that still gets me. The Nissan and the Vette for that matter, do have luxury items such as fancy radios's GPS, power everything, A/C etc and they don't weight 3900 lbs which is the projected weight of the new Camaro. Seriously, this is just stupid heavy. I could have considered 3500, but there is no way in hell I'm plunking down some hard earned cash for a "sports car" that weights close to 2 Tons.

[ESPCamaro]

At least in S/P autox trim, cars that start very heavy have more weight to lose with simple parts substitutions.....

I would be willing to bet that the wheels/tires, exhuast, seats and battery are absolutely rediculas massive on that car.

Just a guess but I'd say a 3500lb S/P 5th gen Camaro is possible.....Maybe less.......

[StanIROCZ]

GM vehicles tend to be heavier because they want to have a safe, 5 star rated, corporate culture. Every single GM vehicle will be 5 star at some point. Nissan doesn't seem interested in that route.

I have my 3rd gen gutted to the point where I can see, touch, and feel the sheet metal in the cowl, a-pillar, windshield, and roof. Lord help me if I get into an accident that has any significant impact in these areas. There ain't much there. My 3rd gen (3500 lbs loaded with options from the factory) is no where close to being as strong/stiff/safe as these newer cars. Think about when the 3rd gen or even the 4th gen (much of which was based off the 3rd gen) was designed. Think about the analysis tools that were available then versus now. And rash technology has come along way since then. I'm not sure if crash rating existed or was even a concern then or not (I don't know, I was born in 1980).

I've seen real life cut-aways of C6 vettes and Mid-size GM cars - No comparison to my 3rd gen. I'd venture to guess that a roll cage in a newer car is very much redundant.

Here's the thing that still gets me. The Nissan and the Vette for that matter, do have luxury items such as fancy radios's GPS, power everything, A/C etc and they don't weight 3900 lbs which is the projected weight of the new Camaro. Seriously, this is just stupid heavy. I could have considered 3500, but there is no way in hell I'm plunking down some hard earned cash for a "sports car" that weights close to 2 Tons.

You're comparing 2 seat sports cars to basically a 2 door 4 seat (I dare say) sedan (built off the same platform as the G8 etc). In the case of the Nissan you are comparing a sports car with a lighter driveline to a sedan with a heavier and more powerful driveline. In the case of a Vette you are comparing the Sedan to a sports car that should be priced about 10k$ higher which has a lot of aluminum (subframe and suspension etc), which will drive the price up even on the base model.

If you want to compare the new camaro to the old ones, look at what has changed since then. Emission and crash standards are much more strict. The bar has been significatly raised for quality and warranty.

I hate the fact that the new camaro is a pig but I understand the pressures on the OEM's. Make it cheap, make if safe, make it fast, make it fuel efficient, make it emission compliant, make it light, make it quality/reliablity/low warranty, make it quiet. You can't have it all. And GM is always the bullseye when it comes to comparisons. They get a lot of undeserving shit flung at them in Mag reviews, IMO. And the Japanese cheat.

One thing that I regret though is I think they could have saved some weight and cost (at the expense of unsprung weight) if they had went with a beam axle instead. I wouldn't mind that instead of the IRS for this "muscle car". The mustang, which is its direct competitor, has it.

[LS1_Alex]

Here is where some of the weight comes in..

More at Camaro5

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/attachment.p...mp;d=1226429409
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/attachment.p...mp;d=1226429409
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/attachment.p...mp;d=1226429409
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/attachment.p...mp;d=1226429475
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/attachment.p...mp;d=1226429409

[StanIROCZ]

Here is where some of the weight comes in..

More at Camaro5

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/attachment.p...mp;d=1226429409
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/attachment.p...mp;d=1226429409
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/attachment.p...mp;d=1226429409
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/attachment.p...mp;d=1226429475
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/attachment.p...mp;d=1226429409

Ummm yeah, nothing like a 3rd gen (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[NJSPEEDER]

The funny thing about the weight of the new Camaro is that it is only a little heavier than a well optioned 4th gen. There are bunches of 3700-3800lbs 4th gens out there. Add the excess amounts of steel to make a 5 star crash car, useless mega huge rims, and a handful of other trinkets and it is easy to see where the extra 100bos came from.

I am also better than the 370Z, much like the 350Z, is going to be a middle fo the road performer at best. I have driven several 350's and it is about as boring a driving experience as one can find in anything selling itself as a sports car.