[robz71lm7]

Since this has no useful tech and has been covered previously I thought I'd post my rant in here.

This applies to the '93+ F-body.

I just took the front lca's off my car. I replaced the bushings in them with Energy Suspension bushings in the summer. Well after just a few autocross events the caster bushings on BOTH sides are ripped in half and one side had almost spit the bushing completely out. (The caster bushing are the rear bushing on the front LCA's).

I was mainly doing this to replace them as preventive maintenance. I had read where others had experienced a caster bushing failure and didn't want to take a risk of it happening mid summer.

I have a set of prothane poly bushings here. The caster bushing on these is completely different and looks much stouter-however I don't know what it will do.

Others have used the Moog replacement caster bushing sucessfully-use that if you're looking for a replacement.

Also from what I can tell the bushings have been shot for a while which might explain some ( not all) of my car's nasty behavior over bumps and dead feeling in slaloms. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rant2.gif) GRRRR.

[Sam Strano]

Yup, that's the problem. Little did I know at the time. I've tried to tell everyone I can think of about the issue, and completely stay away from that bushing in the back. I run the Moog rear bushing, but still have the ES front bushing (Since it does not break and is a touch stiffer than a rubber one).

You'll be surprised how much nicer the car will react without that being broken.

[robz71lm7]

I had just finished mine right when Lonnie told me your bushings had broken just recently. I sorta wish I had pulled it all back apart at that point.

[rmackintosh]

I have ZERO street miles on mine and MAYBE 5-6 race weekends total on them.....and while inspecting them recently I found the same thing....they are both ripped, and one looks like it is almost GONE!... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)

Good thing the new LGM Lower A-arms are going on with the heim joints in the next week or two.... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/thumbup.gif)

I plan to keep the stockers for emergency damage/spare parts, so I will get the Moog replacements for the rear I guess....

I would not recommend these to ANYONE.....

[bruecksteve]

So how long did they last?? I put mine on last year. When did you find out these were not working Sam???

[y5e06]

hmmm, I installed my bushings a couple months ago. Car has only seen 1 autox and couple street miles. I guess I'll plan on installing the Moog units when I get around to installing coilovers.

[Cannibal]

Where do we get MOOG replacement bushings, any of them not just a certain location.

[ESPCamaro]

Sam do you/can you sell prothane parts?

[robz71lm7]

So how long did they last?? I put mine on last year. When did you find out these were not working Sam???

About three autocrosses I think. Hard to say though since one was a club event where I put on quite a few runs.

[sgarnett]

Where do we get MOOG replacement bushings, any of them not just a certain location.

I just bought a full set of rear and lower front Moogs from Sam, so I know he carries them.

The Moog rears ARE the 1LE bushings (compared molded part numbers to a real 1LE).

I think the front camber bushings are solid and may or may not be 1LE. I know the Moog caster bushings are NOT 1LE, but they are beefier than stock.

[bruecksteve]

I went through all last season with them. I haven't really noticed anything feeling loose or mushy.

[Racer X]

I think the front camber bushings are solid and may or may not be 1LE. I know the Moog caster bushings are NOT 1LE, but they are beefier than stock.

Just installed my front lower arms tonight after getting them back from the machine shop. (no way those bushings were going to come out without a press)

I can confirm that the camber bushing is indeed solid and as Sam has said previously, the caster bushing has a sort of web in it rather than being completely open on either side.

I bought the Moog bushings and balljoints from Sam. I actually paid for them in person as I had the chance to meet him while I was back east for X-mas. (thanks again for taking time out of your schedule big guy)

[Sam Strano]

Let's see if I can answer all the questions in one response.....
(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I found them broken (badly) in June I think. Installed in Feb, but in hindsight were broken long before June. I got lucky and found we were racing with a very nice fellow who had some new 1LE arms, bought them and Lonnie and I installed them Sunday Morning of the Toledo Pro (what a pain and thrash that was...).

I sell the Moog bushings. Control arm bushings come as a one-arm set. ($26 an arm, So about $100 to do all four arms/8 bushings). Also, the Moog parts come sleeved, which makes installation a breeze with a decent press. No burning things to reuse the metal parts.

I can get Prothane. But until someone else tries them and can give me a year long status report, I'm not risking it. I'm staying with what's holding up for sure.

It was great to meet you in person Korry, and no problem about the time. And Korry is right, the Moog stuff is beefier than the GM stuff.

[00 SS]

Is the MOOG stuff stock class legal? Since it's different from stock and some are exact replacement for 1LE, are they legal in a non 1LE car in FS?

[ESPCamaro]

Let's see if I can answer all the questions in one response.....
(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I found them broken (badly) in June I think. Installed in Feb, but in hindsight were broken long before June. I got lucky and found we were racing with a very nice fellow who had some new 1LE arms, bought them and Lonnie and I installed them Sunday Morning of the Toledo Pro (what a pain and thrash that was...).


I can get Prothane. But until someone else tries them and can give me a year long status report, I'm not risking it. I'm staying with what's holding up for sure.

On the bright side, if we 'had' to do it again, it would probably only take about 45minutes for a complete teardown. Hell it didn't take much longer than that anyway. :drive:



If you get me the Prothane stuff I'll try it.

Which reminds me. Turns out having a child gives you a really nice tax return. So within the next 1 to 1-1/2 weeks, I'll be ordering a set of wheels, seat, and Prothane bushings. If you can get the Fikse's and Prothane stuff let me know, I'll just get it all from you.

I guess Tom sells Fikse's so if nay on them, I'll buy em' from Tom.

[Formula WS6]

man im glad i read this. i figured since id need to remove my lower arm for the ball joint that id go ahead and do the bushings. guess ill get the Moogs now in stead of the energy suspension ones.

on that note. i havent even looked into it in the book, but how hard is it to get the lower arms off? ill only have the car on jack stands. do i need to get it really high off the ground? man no longer having a lift sucks

[robz71lm7]

Let's see if I can answer all the questions in one response.....
(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I found them broken (badly) in June I think. Installed in Feb, but in hindsight were broken long before June. I got lucky and found we were racing with a very nice fellow who had some new 1LE arms, bought them and Lonnie and I installed them Sunday Morning of the Toledo Pro (what a pain and thrash that was...).

I sell the Moog bushings. Control arm bushings come as a one-arm set. ($26 an arm, So about $100 to do all four arms/8 bushings). Also, the Moog parts come sleeved, which makes installation a breeze with a decent press. No burning things to reuse the metal parts.

I can get Prothane. But until someone else tries them and can give me a year long status report, I'm not risking it. I'm staying with what's holding up for sure.

It was great to meet you in person Korry, and no problem about the time. And Korry is right, the Moog stuff is beefier than the GM stuff.

Sam I've already got prothanes that'll be on my car for this season. We start autocrossing early in March.

I'll let you all know how they hold up.

[rmackintosh]

...heres what you get after a few track days and ZERO street miles...

(IMG:http://www.vilipend.net/~frrax/albums/album19/IMG_2043.thumb.jpg)

(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)

[robz71lm7]

Anyways the arms on now with new prothane bushings. The Moog balljoints I got were a PITA to press on. I've pressed lower ball joints before on a '96 camaro and they were easy.

I had to take my lca's to a friend's machine shop and even with a hydralic press they didn't want to go in. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

Oh and BTW I noticed a nice dent in the hole for my caster bushing on both lower control. Evidently the caster bolt was pounding the LCA. Fortunately no real damage occured to my LCA's.

Finding this pisses me off but it's a blessing to know that I still did halfway decent with completely shot caster bushings. :drive:

Sean, if you're reading this look out. #8/18 ESP is being born anew... rising from the piles of crumbled poly bushings....a new age of darkness will be cast upon all other ESP competitors in KY. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) (Sorry I've been saving that line for a while-actually it'll be interesting to see what your car does with the new setup)

[sgarnett]

Sean, if you're reading this look out. #8/18 ESP is being born anew... rising from the piles of crumbled poly bushings....a new age of darkness will be cast upon all other ESP competitors in KY. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) (Sorry I've been saving that line for a while-actually it'll be interesting to see what your car does with the new setup)

That's not quite as terse as your old smack version (B4C>Z28).

I dunno, since you have the white car and I have the black car, it seem like if there's any new age of darkness casting to be done, I oughta be the one doing it (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

I'm going with all Moog bushings. I haven't started yet, so I'm curious to see what my stock caster bushings look like.

[Racer X]

I'm curious to see what my stock caster bushings look like.

My factory bushings looked surprisingly good at 101K miles.

About 92K of those were accumulated in eastern PA (think lots of road salt and crappy roads).

[robz71lm7]

My stock caster bushings were both torn at 30 something thousand miles-although the car was 10 years old at the time.

[Timz06]

I blew the exhaust gasket out between the header and y pipe at Road Atlanta, and my caster bushing melted.

[sgarnett]

OK, I've got some new confusion to add to the mix:

The stock front lower control arm bushings on my 2001 Z28 ARE the Moog bushings. Exactly. The part numbers and markings molded in the rubber match perfectly on both the caster and camber bushings.

My car is somewhere in the mid 30K range on mileage, and that includes several years of autocross at local events on 275 tires, mostly on fairly slick lots, and only lowered to 27".

My stock "Moog" caster bushings are torn. Of course, they are rubber and will fail sooner or later no matter what. Lowering these cars is tough on the caster bushing. They have not totally failed yet, but they are not far from it.

What I don't know is whether the earlier cars used some other bushings that fail even sooner, or if the "proven" Moogs are simply holding up at first because they are still fresh and pliable. I also don't know how long mine have been torn.

Really, almost 4 years isn't a bad service life for a stressed rubber bushing, but now I'm wondering whether Prothane might be worth a shot.

[ESPCamaro]

My question is what did Sam's stock ones look like. His car is the same year as yours.....If GM added different parts on the same model and year of car, HTF are we to keep track?

In any event I'll be adding ProThane parts. While I'm sure that they will be MUCH more durable than the E/S part, I don't expect much more than 1.5-2rs.

[sgarnett]

My question is what did Sam's stock ones look like. His car is the same year as yours.....If GM added different parts on the same model and year of car, HTF are we to keep track?

In any event I'll be adding ProThane parts. While I'm sure that they will be MUCH more durable than the E/S part, I don't expect much more than 1.5-2rs.

It's quite possible that there were multiple suppliers for the bushings.

The original bushings have two holes passing all the way through to allow easier vertical movement of the control arms. At first I thought the Moogs just had shallower depressions, but that was just because there was still some paper-thin mold flash across the holes. The molded-in part numbers pretty much nail it anyway.

So, I wonder which will last longer - a fresh set of the stock/Moog bushings, or Prothane? Obviously neither is going to last forever.

I'm going to try Prothane for the camber bushing anyway since the Moogs are no better than stock. More importantly, the camber bushing isn't accessible on my press. After trying it, and repairing the damage, I gave up and removed the rubber core.

I already have the caster bushings pressed out, so I have until tomorrow to decide whether to install the Moog as-is or burn out a brand new bushing and install the Prothane.

My schedule keeps slipping ....

[robz71lm7]

OK, I've got some new confusion to add to the mix:

The stock front lower control arm bushings on my 2001 Z28 ARE the Moog bushings. Exactly. The part numbers and markings molded in the rubber match perfectly on both the caster and camber bushings.

My car is somewhere in the mid 30K range on mileage, and that includes several years of autocross at local events on 275 tires, mostly on fairly slick lots, and only lowered to 27".

My stock "Moog" caster bushings are torn. Of course, they are rubber and will fail sooner or later no matter what. Lowering these cars is tough on the caster bushing. They have not totally failed yet, but they are not far from it.

What I don't know is whether the earlier cars used some other bushings that fail even sooner, or if the "proven" Moogs are simply holding up at first because they are still fresh and pliable. I also don't know how long mine have been torn.

Really, almost 4 years isn't a bad service life for a stressed rubber bushing, but now I'm wondering whether Prothane might be worth a shot.

My stockers were out at 30 something K as well. Like I said in that PM a while back the prothanes are much better than ES, but I don't think any bushing will last long. It just isn't a good place for a bushing-it needs to be a rod end. I might tear mine down mid-year to inspect the prothanes, but I'll definately have them out next winter.

My ES's were so obliterated that I had damaged done to my LCA's.

Sean if you want you can just throw in the moog and see what happens to my guinea pig with prothanes since they're already on my car.

I'd go ahead and replace the camber bushing with prothanes-nothing wrong with poly there.

[sgarnett]

My ES's were so obliterated that I had damaged done to my LCA's.

Sean if you want you can just throw in the moog and see what happens to my guinea pig with prothanes since they're already on my car.

I'd go ahead and replace the camber bushing with prothanes-nothing wrong with poly there.

Well, at least I don't have to ruin my brand new Moog caster bushings just to salvage new shells, or try to get the old ones back in tight enough. Apparently the Prothane caster bushing doesn't use the shell, unless I'm very confused (the other locations do).

The lower half of the Prothane caster bushing looks fine. I'm a little skeptical of the upper half, which doesn't really fit/engage as positively as I expected. It does need to be able to flex though, so maybe .... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

They look easy to install, though, so it should only take a few extra minutes to test fit them on the car before deciding. I'm already way behind anyway (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

[firehawkclone]

I also will be installing the prothane set, and i'll be doing some OT event's and street driving with street tire's for now.

It will take me sometime(hopefully) to get some feedback but i'll post up my finding's.