[McCall]

GM pulls plug on '08 line of cars - Product czar Bob Lutz wants to
speed new trucks, SUVs to market faster.
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0.../A01-123402.htm

If the Zeta program is dead, that means the new Camaro/GTO is pretty much dead. Boy those guys at GM are idiots....

McCall

[ESPCamaro]

Boy those guys at GM are idiots....

McCall

What's dumb about concentrating on truck and SUV production when fuel prices are the highest this countries ever seen.

Sounds like perfectly logical thinking.

[axoid]

On fastlane.gmblogs.com Bob posted a follow up to today's the news.

Zeta Not the End of RWD Performance
By Bob Lutz
GM Vice Chairman

Some news broke today about a reshuffling of our product plan, and I just want to clear one thing up before people get carried away.

Yes, we have canceled our plans to build rear-wheel-drive vehicles off the Zeta architecture. But that does not mean we've canceled plans to build rear-drive vehicles altogether.

We did not cancel the Zeta plans to save money, or to divert funds elsewhere that would've been used for product development.

We are simply reallocating resources (human and financial) to pull some other programs ahead and get other vehicles to market sooner. The press speculates this means we're doing it to get our next-generation large SUVs and pickups out sooner. You could see how one might reasonably come to such a conclusion.

Rest assured, we remain committed to developing RWD, premium, high-performance, affordable vehicles, perhaps even a few with a trace of nostalgia baked in.

[rushman]

perhaps even a few with a trace of nostalgia baked in.

That makes me feel a little better..... unless by nostalgia he means push the 2008 el camino.... I mean SSR

[TOO Z MAXX]

"with a little bit of nostalga baked in" Sounds like they are just dangling that carrot out there to keep us interested.

[Absolut Speed]

What's dumb about concentrating on truck and SUV production when fuel prices are the highest this countries ever seen.

Sounds like perfectly logical thinking.

My thoughts exactly. The only way GM should concern itself with trucks and SUV's is if they are building them around alternative fuels.

Insight, Echo, Prius, Civic hybrid, Accord Hybrid, Escape Hybrid = not GM. The Silverado hybrid is a joke. The VUE was delayed. $2.15 in the Midwest per gallon today. That's not changing and apparently, neither is GM.

[rmackintosh]

  Boy those guys at GM are idiots....

McCall

What's dumb about concentrating on truck and SUV production when fuel prices are the highest this countries ever seen.

Sounds like perfectly logical thinking.

....that really pisses me off.....if there is a good idea...you CAN BET GM will go the OPPOSITE direction...

GM = G&%D#$M MORONS....

(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

[Teutonic Speedra...]

Why can't GM start making cars we want? They need to stop making cars that they think people will want but really don't.

[trackbird]

Damn, we may be FMRRAX.com soon (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/nutkick.gif) (F-body Mustang Road Race Auto-X) because GM is quickly running out of places for us to go (or places for us to "hold out" for) if we want a new toy, unless you are buying a Corvette.

[slowTA]

(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/bs.gif) :stupid: (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rant.gif) (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/drink.gif) (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/banghead.gif) (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/nutkick.gif)

[sgarnett]

On fastlane.gmblogs.com Bob posted a follow up to today's the news.

Zeta Not the End of RWD Performance
By Bob Lutz
GM Vice Chairman
...
We did not cancel the Zeta plans to save money, or to divert funds elsewhere that would've been used for product development.

We are simply reallocating resources (human and financial) to pull some other programs ahead and get other vehicles to market sooner.
...

We didn't divert funds, we just reallocated resources. Hmmm (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

Somehow, when I read premium, affordable, high performance, and nostalgia in the same sentence I have trouble reconciling them.

Somehow, I read that as somewhere between an SSR, the new (well, not so new now) T-Bird, and a forced-induction PT Cruiser.

Somehow, I read affordable premium as $40K, not low $20Ks like a minimalist Z28.

Somehow, I read nostalgic performance as a detuned, iron block, 5.3.

Somehow, I read nostalgia baked in as half-baked.

[trackbird]

We didn't divert funds, we just reallocated resources. Hmmm:rolleyes:

Somehow, when I read premium, affordable, high performance, and nostalgia in the same sentence I have trouble reconciling them.

Somehow, I read that as somewhere between an SSR, the new (well, not so new now) T-Bird, and a forced-induction PT Cruiser.

Somehow, I read affordable premium as $40K, not low $20Ks like a minimalist Z28.

Somehow, I read nostalgic performance as a detuned, iron block, 5.3.

Somehow, I read nostalgia baked in as half-baked.

Somehow....I think you're probably right.

[tom97ss]

Nostalgia = Underpowered Cars of the mid to late 70's with lots of stripes and scoops
(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/nutkick.gif)

[trackbird]

Nostalgia = Underpowered Cars of the mid to late 70's with lots of stripes and scoops
(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/nutkick.gif)

Except for underpowered (for a few of them, 4th gen f-bodies and the new GTO's), it sounds like the Pontiac lineup for the last 20 years has already been giving that to us.

[AllZWay]

  Boy those guys at GM are idiots....

McCall

Sounds like perfectly logical thinking.

....that really pisses me off.....if there is a good idea...you CAN BET GM will go the OPPOSITE direction...

GM = G&%D#$M MORONS....

(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

That sure seems to be GM's plan. Let's not build anything but trucks at a time when gas prices are going to slow down truck sales.

I do think GM is being ran by complete idiots.

[y5e06]

ah, just face it. We'll all have to become Ford owners... with a collection of [soon to be] classic chevys in the garage.
(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

[2000Z-71]

Why do I have a feeling the nostalgia will be a really bad imitation of a '69 Camaro, rolling on a modified Trailblazer frame with the standard 5.3 truck motor priced at 45K?

This is what really pisses me off at GM, they have the potential to build some great performance cars and they choose not to.

How 'bout a no frills stripper budget priced Corvette?

There is the Holden platform available for RWD, it could be built here. Do some restyling for the American market and it would probably sell.

The Caprice/Impala is still being built for oversees markets. Checked on the prices for used Impala SS's lately? There is a market here for them.

Is there any reason there is not a new version of the Syclone? The parts are there it's just a matter of assembling them. Take a basic Canyon, steal the all wheel drive from the Trailblazer, drop in LS-2 from a Corvette, done.

Or how 'bout a new version of the 454 SS pickup. Take basic Silverado 2wd standard cab shortbed, drop in 8.1, sell for 30k or less, done.

[trackbird]

Or how 'bout a new version of the 454 SS pickup. Take basic Silverado 2wd standard cab shortbed, drop in 8.1, sell for 30k or less, done.

Maybe they could make this one fast...... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rant.gif)

[robz71lm7]

Why do I have a feeling the nostalgia will be a really bad imitation of a '69 Camaro, rolling on a modified Trailblazer frame with the standard 5.3 truck motor priced at 45K?

This is what really pisses me off at GM, they have the potential to build some great performance cars and they choose not to.

How 'bout a no frills stripper budget priced Corvette?

There is the Holden platform available for RWD, it could be built here. Do some restyling for the American market and it would probably sell.

The Caprice/Impala is still being built for oversees markets. Checked on the prices for used Impala SS's lately? There is a market here for them.

Is there any reason there is not a new version of the Syclone? The parts are there it's just a matter of assembling them. Take a basic Canyon, steal the all wheel drive from the Trailblazer, drop in LS-2 from a Corvette, done.

Or how 'bout a new version of the 454 SS pickup. Take basic Silverado 2wd standard cab shortbed, drop in 8.1, sell for 30k or less, done.

Exactly. They had a nice simple gold silverado SS concept around '99 or '00 with a 6L that ran 13's and used off the shelf parts. Would've been a nice sub 30K truck at the time, instead we got a heavy slow awd truck that isn't good for anything.

The new corvettes are way too expensive as well.

The only thing I like from GM anymore is their trucks-I'm sure that will change soon.

Maybe I'm getting old (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) there just aren't any new cars I like.

[bobbylee]

I've bought my last GM product...That's what I said in '79 too before I bought an F-body. It'll be a long, long time though, if ever. GM does not make anything I am interested in, except a 'Vette, and I doubt I'd ever buy one. I have enough toys and projects to last me forever as it is.

[slowTA]

ah, just face it. We'll all have to become Ford owners... with a collection of [soon to be] classic chevys in the garage.
(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

I could see myself driving a Dodge instead. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[JKnight]

GM does not make anything I am interested in, except a 'Vette, and I doubt I'd ever buy one.

I hear that the C5rs are for sale. Anywhere from $200k to $450k. Now that's a Chevy that I'd love tyo own!

Jason

[rmackintosh]

ah, just face it. We'll all have to become Ford owners... with a collection of [soon to be] classic chevys in the garage.
(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

....nah...I've owned a few Fords.....all were CRAP....wouldn't waste my time on another one....I would have to go Dodge....even though the interiors in those look so FRICKEN cheap it is sickening....

(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

[rmackintosh]

GM does not make anything I am interested in, except a 'Vette, and I doubt I'd ever buy one.

I hear that the C5rs are for sale. Anywhere from $200k to $450k. Now that's a Chevy that I'd love tyo own!

Jason

...yeah...I saw privateer C5R on the track at Sebring and was like...

WTF???? (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

GM NEVER sells there factory race cars.....they just go to some museum somewhere....they must be REALLY hurtin' to need to sell those things....

....what the hell....maybe soon the will be offering a $200,000 rebate on them and ZERO PERCENT financing for 30 years...
(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rotf.gif)

[94bird]

Found this in AutoTech daily recently. It's a little different spin on the previous posts:

GM PUTS THE BRAKES ON REAR-DRIVE ZETA MODELS
General Motors Corp. has halted development of up to four rear-wheel-drive midsize
vehicles that were due to be launched in North America in three years, according to
several media reports. The vehicles—including the next-generation Pontiac GTO—were
to be built on GM’s Zeta platform, which is expected to still be used for applications
outside North America.
The move is said to have been initiated by Vice Chairman Bob Lutz after it was determined
the vehicles couldn’t be engineered and produced as cost effectively as competitive
rear-drive models such as the hot-selling Chrysler 300 and new Ford Mustang. The
decision also allows GM to shift resources to the development of new full-size pickups
and SUVs that are due next year.
In addition to the GTO, the Zeta platform was expected to be the basis for new
Chevrolet and Buick models—possibly reviving the Camaro nameplate and giving life to a
production version of last year’s Buick Velite concept car. The current GTO shares a platform
with the Holden Monaro and is produced in Australia.
An internal GM memo circulated last week said the vehicles have been put on hold
until further notice by the current business climate, according to some reports. Although
the automaker acknowledges the Zeta platform programs have been stopped, officials
insist new approaches are being analyzed for future midsize rear-drive vehicles.
Those new models may eventually be shifted to the existing Monaro-GTO platform or
the Sigma architecture that carries the Cadillac CTS and STS sedans and SRX crossover
vehicles. But this likely would delay introduction by at least a year.

==============================

In the same issue they spoke of showing a SS version of the Trailblazer with a 391 HP version of the LS2 in it and 20" wheels. Hehe, the 0-60 was touted as 5.7s. Heck, notice above that one of the reasons GM is killing the Zeta platform is it's not as cost effective of a RWD platform as the LX (Charger, Magnum, 300) for Chrysler and the Mustang for Ford. Now, they're coming out with a SS Trailblazer that SRT already has covered handily with a Grand Cherokee. GM's other SS will be a 250 HP V6 Monte Carlo (FWD). Ugh. I'm with you guys. GM is making some outright stupid marketing decisions.

It's in the headlines lately that they will offer "early retirement" to about 28% of their white collar workers asap.

It's heartbreaking.

[pknowles]

SS Monte Carlo, haven't we learned that hotrod FWD's just don't sell. SVT focus, Colt GHL (think that's right), SRT4 (havn't seen one yet). The new VW's I don't consider "performance" because they are so heavy.

A freind of mine still has people making offers on his Impala SS.

[CMC #37]

QUOTE (y5e06 @ Mar 22 2005, 08:58 AM)
ah, just face it. We'll all have to become Ford owners... with a collection of [soon to be] classic chevys in the garage.
mad.gif

....nah...I've owned a few Fords.....all were CRAP....wouldn't waste my time on another one....I would have to go Dodge....even though the interiors in those look so FRICKEN cheap it is sickening....

blink.gif

Randy, we think alike! I think a skateboard, pogo stick or horse would be better than driving a F*rd! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

[Absolut Speed]

....nah...I've owned a few Fords.....all were CRAP....wouldn't waste my time on another one....I would have to go Dodge....even though the interiors in those look so FRICKEN cheap it is sickening....

(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

GM guys have NO right to call other manufacturers interiors cheap. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

[rmackintosh]

....nah...I've owned a few Fords.....all were CRAP....wouldn't waste my time on another one....I would have to go Dodge....even though the interiors in those look so FRICKEN cheap it is sickening....

(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

GM guys have NO right to call other manufacturers interiors cheap. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

...ever seen the inside of a Dodge truck????...

I have made SEVERAL attempts to buy one, but each time the salesman had to clean the barf off of the seat after I climbed out...

(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)

[bobbylee]

nah...I've owned a few Fords.....all were CRAP....wouldn't waste my time on another one

Not trying to turn this into a Ford vs GM vs Dodge things. but...

I have always liked GM for high performance and Ford for transportation. I've put about 5 times the miles on Fords than on GM vehicles. 99.9% of them trouble free too.

Here's my take on all of this crap:

Dodge - will be running until the next millenium, too bad there won't be anything left of the vehicle to carry the engine around in, a/c systems self destruct as soon as the warranty is up, electrical switches, circuits, etc are all crap, body integrity is about as bad as you can get. How I know - My dad, co-workers, and friend all bought them. I repaired them too, with regularity.

Chevy/GM - still builds a fine powertrain, and has actually improved the rest of the vehicle...if you want something ugly or want a truck. Remember the 70's and 80's? Paint and trim were abominable, interiors fell apart within three years, GM decides that thinner head castings save 1.00 per car so 86 and up cast iron heads suck, most of them were delivered from the factory with pre-installed oil and water leaks. How I know - I owned these POS's in the 70's.

Ford - the worst I can say about them is that their ancillary components don't seem to hold up as long as GM's...water pumps. fuel pumps, alternators seem to go with greater regularity. Other than that--- I have owned three Ford trucks and three cars. I still drive my 76 Ford daily. They have all been stone reliable with never a warranty issue. If you want a full size truck, Ford is it.

I'm not impressed with the current crop of Ford cars anymore than GM or Chrysler. If I ever buy a new car, it will be Honda or Toyota. .The wife's Toyota 4 Runner is amazing. The way she treats that thing - no problems whatsoever. I can't believe how well it is built and the way things stay together.

[2000Z-71]

The move is said to have been initiated by Vice Chairman Bob Lutz after it was determined
the vehicles couldn’t be engineered and produced as cost effectively as competitive
rear-drive models such as the hot-selling Chrysler 300 and new Ford Mustang.

Let's not leave out the Infiniti G35's, Nissan 350Z. All cars that are very much in demand.

So tell me how is it cost effective to produce a less expensive car that doesn't sell?

[sgarnett]

Between my wife and I, we currently own a 2001 Chevy Camaro, 1997 Ford T-bird, a 1996 Dodge Ram, a 1977 MGB. Before the Dodge, we had a Toyota.

There are now so few vehicles made that I would want, even ignoring price, that brand loyalty is irrelevant.

I drove a rental F150 extended cab 2WD on a road trip about a year ago, and was impressed. It drove well and got great gas mileage. I'm not sure it would be my first choice as a farm/work truck (though a new F250 or an old F150 might) but it would be a nice daily driver.

[AllZWay]

I'm not impressed with the current crop of Ford cars anymore than GM or Chrysler. If I ever buy a new car, it will be Honda or Toyota. .The wife's Toyota 4 Runner is amazing. The way she treats that thing - no problems whatsoever. I can't believe how well it is built and the way things stay together.

After all the problems my wife has had with Honda products.... I would be very leary about buying another one.

92' Accord - Busted block at 23K

'96 Legend - WAY TOO MANY PROBLEMS to list all, but primary - axles, rear main seals, transmission, interior falling off, radio, antenna.....etc... all before 63K

'98 Accord - not bad, minor interior crap pieces falling off.

'2000 Passport - BIGGEST POS ON 4 WHEELS. Spent months at a time in the shop for numerous problems....computer, fuel injection, brakes, transmission primary problems al before 24K.

Now she has a 2004 Tahoe and so far so good with about 18K on it.

A guy I work with has gotten lots of miles from his Toyota trucks, but all had to have head gaskets replaced at about 80K, but then chug on to 200k pretty easily.

[94bird]

SS Monte Carlo, haven't we learned that hotrod FWD's just don't sell. SVT focus, Colt GHL (think that's right), SRT4 (havn't seen one yet).

You're kidding right? Hot rod FWDs don't sell? Maybe Maryland is an isolated pocket without a good market for fast FWD cars, but I doubt it. What doesn't sell well is hot rod mid size and larger FWD cars. Compacts are a completely different story.

[CMC #37]

Omni GLH (goes like hell), Caroll Shelby car. Fun little beastie! I had a Dodge Colt turbo back in 1985 new. That was also a nice FWD "pocket rocket." A complete blast until you hit 60mphish, then it shriveled up and yelled for mama! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rotf.gif) My '89 Formula 350 'Bird rescued me from that situation.... I was disappointed when the turbo option Colt blue book value was *zero dollars* when I went to sell it. It was a completely different car than the stocker, wider and nice 60 series Yokos that kept me giggling constantly. Who makes up that bleepin' blue book anyway!!! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/banghead.gif)

[00 Trans Ram]

Well, here's the short list of the next cars that I would own as a daily driver (keeping the T/A as a pure race car):

1) Used C6 (2-3 years old)
2) (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)
3) (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)
4) (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

Notice a trend? The Vette is the only thing that has what I want - high HP, RWD, handling, good looks, relatively good reliability. I am hard pressed to think of even a single other car that combines those things!

[94bird]

No offense to you ESPers out there, but the Evo is my car, plain and simple if I was to buy a new car. Problem is a 10 yr old F body is still so much cheaper. It's hard to justify spending the extra money.

BTW, I still have a tender spot in my heart for the GLH Turbos - http://mywebpages.comcast.net/miketaylor68/glh.html

This post has been edited by 94bird: Mar 24 2005, 04:36 AM

[robz71lm7]

No offense to you ESPers out there, but the Evo is my car, plain and simple if I was to buy a new car. Problem is a 10 yr old F body is still so much cheaper. It's hard to justify spending the extra money.

BTW, I still have a tender spot in my heart for the GLH Turbos - http://mywebpages.comcast.net/miketaylor68/glh.html

I'd probably consider buying a rally car too... Sti.

Of course I'd also consider a C5.


But in reality the only realistic replacement for me would be a factory five cobra replica. I've been eyeing these for a while and I think it would be a ton of fun to build and re-engineer and tune the suspension.

Although I would probably try and put a SBC in it. Perhaps LS1 if I got a good deal on a used one.

[trackbird]

No offense to you ESPers out there, but the Evo is my car, plain and simple if I was to buy a new car. Problem is a 10 yr old F body is still so much cheaper. It's hard to justify spending the extra money.

BTW, I still have a tender spot in my heart for the GLH Turbos - http://mywebpages.comcast.net/miketaylor68/glh.html

I'd probably consider buying a rally car too... Sti.

Of course I'd also consider a C5.


But in reality the only realistic replacement for me would be a factory five cobra replica. I've been eyeing these for a while and I think it would be a ton of fun to build and re-engineer and tune the suspension.

Although I would probably try and put a SBC in it. Perhaps LS1 if I got a good deal on a used one.

I've had that same thought, including craving one with an LS1 swapped into it. I'd probably build the spec racer version and head to the track with it.

[mjf454]

I've said all along that GM has no interest in selling anything but trucks. Out here 91 octane is $2.50 a gallon, and all you see are suv's. I brought a friend to the dealer to look at the c6. They had one c6 and a ton of trucks and suv's. He saw a new malibu looking pos and said he didnt know Chevy made anything besides the Corvette and trucks. Every commercial or mag. ad is for a truck or suv. Right across the street the Ford dealer has at least 100 new Mustangs on display, and a new red GT {Gt 40} right in the center for all to see. These people want, and know how to sell cars.

If I need to buy another car, I would have to go with a 67 GTO.That would be pretty trick with a big inch LS1.

[pknowles]

Out here 91 octane is $2.50 a gallon, and all you see are suv's.

93 is a little higher here in DC. I did the math a few years ago, but gas would have to go up to about $5 a gallon to break even on the gas saving verse the extra insurance of buying a beater econobox compared to the Camaro. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/nutkick.gif) Plus I have to maintain the econobox, no thanks. I drive 17 miles to work everyday, if that was 50 miles then it might matter.

[trackbird]

Phil, I'm with you. I drive 13 miles to work (though my 2002 Z has 56k on it, I drive a bunch, but not to work). I've considered a beater myself. But, I think I need a beater truck/tow vehicle if I were going to do anything. I guess if I bought a beater, I'd start working on the Camaro (headers, heads, cam, exhaust, etc). Maybe that's why I'm not letting myself buy a beater..... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

[94bird]

SHELBY MUSTANG NAME IS BACK WITH A VENGEANCE
Ford Motor Co. next year will launch the first Shelby Mustang since 1970. The vehicle, which will be nearly identical to the Shelby Cobra GT500 show car unveiled yesterday at the New York auto show, will be the most powerful Mustang ever produced. Due next summer, the Cobra GT500 will feature a supercharged 5.4-liter V-8 engine expected to generate at least 450 hp and a like amount of torque. The 32-valve DOHC powerplant is borrowed from Ford’s $140,000 GT supercar. The engine will be mated to a specially tuned six-speed Tremec manual transmission.

Although a three-link, solid rear axle design will be used instead of an independent unit to save weight, Ford claims driving characteristics haven’t been compromised. The suspension is basically the same as that used in the base Mustang GT, with MacPherson struts in front. The “live” rear axle has modified shock valving and higher-rate springs.

Braking is managed by 14-inch cross-drilled Brembo rotors in the front and 13s in the rear. Other features include a distinctive front fascia with a one-inch-larger grille opening than the GT’s to improve airflow to the engine, new headlamps and a one-inch-higher hood to accommodate the supercharger. Rear appointments include a new fascia and spoiler, which provides 80 lbs of downforce at 120 mph.

The vehicle was developed by Ford’s Special Vehicle Team in collaboration with the legendary Carroll Shelby, who began working with the automaker in the 1960s following a distinguished racing career. The relationship was renewed in 2001 after a temporary falling out. The 82-year-old Shelby describes the GT500 as a street car that can be driven on the race track—balancing power and refinement—instead of a race car modified for the street as the previous models had been. Styling cues come from the 1968 GT500, which was the first Shelby Mustang to use the Cobra name. The 1965 GT350 was the first Shelby Mustang. Future SVT Mustang projects are expected to revive other classic names such as Bullitt and Mach. The automaker plans to build about 7,500 GT500s per year at its plant in Flat Rock, Mich. It’s targeting a sub-$40,000 base price.

===============================

(IMG:http://www.detnews.com/pix/autos/2007/07fordshelbygt500/7.jpg)

Only 7500 of these at about $40K? They'll be sold before the dealers get them.

Go here for more pictures: http://www.detnews.com/pix/photogalleries/...t500/index7.htm

[McCall]

On fastlane.gmblogs.com Bob posted a follow up to today's the news.

I think the comments from the bloggers back to Lutz thoroughly rebut his
response to the news. If you don't build the new Camaro on the Zeta,
then what chassis? And how long will that take to develop? 3-4 added years
putting a new Camaro out in 2011/2012?


Found this. Very interesting facts about GM and their new platforms:
http://www.blueovalnews.com/2005/products/...orm.21mar05.htm

Man, just too much good info on this topic. Yet another interesting article to throw into the fray:
http://www.blueovalnews.com/2005/products/...incre.31705.htm

but the Camaro would never help sales at GM :rollseyes:. It seems like 1964
is happening all over again and just like then GM is years behind.

[94bird]

GM is obviously going through some very bad times right now. I heard a few days ago GM was saying publicly they were going to increase incentives even more on vehicles to increase sales. Ugh.

Looks like Ford is selling Mustangs like hotcakes and DCX is selling just about anything with a Hemi in it faster than they can build the engines. I can't think of a single hot property from GM right now.

I do believe things will turn around for GM though. I'm getting a much stronger feeling that bankruptcy will be part of their way back.

[McCall]

GM is obviously going through some very bad times right now. I heard a few days ago GM was saying publicly they were going to increase incentives even more on vehicles to increase sales. Ugh.

Were you refering to this autoweek article?

http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=102011
"GM cries 'uncle' on rebates; new plan to focus on shrinking stickers, wooing jaded shoppers"

It sounds like they are actually going to cut-out rebates and just lower the sticker prices to put them in a better market position. Finally, a decent idea! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

I also read(can't find the link) that GM is thinking of killing another brand; either Buick or Pontiac. I would think with all the recent investment in new cars like the G6, Grand Prix, and Solstice that it will be Buick on the cutting block. That's kind of ok by me (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[94bird]

Hmm, all they're doing is lowering their sticker prices and lessening the rebates, so the cars will still sell for about the same amount of money. Sounds like marketing mumbo jumbo to me. Can't see it having any real impact on their sales. Now, if they were to cut their manufacturing cost and sell for the same price, that would affect profit.

Yes, I've also seen plenty about Buick being the next one on the chopping block. But at the same time GM is sinking a good bit of money into developing new Buicks.

[sgarnett]

Hmm, all they're doing is lowering their sticker prices and lessening the rebates, so the cars will still sell for about the same amount of money. Sounds like marketing mumbo jumbo to me.

The distinction between price and rebate probably affect the taxes they pay (rebates may be considered an advertising expense), the percentage that goes to the dealer, and maybe even the taxes paid by the buyer. It IS mumbo-jumbo, but it isn't necessarily benign mumbo jumbo.

[ESPCamaro]

No offense to you ESPers out there, but the Evo is my car, plain and simple if I was to buy a new car. Problem is a 10 yr old F body is still so much cheaper. It's hard to justify spending the extra money.

BTW, I still have a tender spot in my heart for the GLH Turbos - http://mywebpages.comcast.net/miketaylor68/glh.html

None taken.

If I could sell the Camaro I'd sell both the Camaro and truck and buy an 05' RS.

Run in STU for a year or two, and then buy another truck and build a SM or ESP car out of the EVO.....

BY FAR my favorite car that is out right now, and other than an 06' Mustang (9" wide wheels vs 05's 8" wheels) is the ONLY performance car I'd even consider buying.

Evo far and away more desireable to me than the Mustang because it's AWD, and because it has pretty good rear seat room. Along with 4doors.

[RWB____s]

Rest assured, we remain committed to developing RWD, premium, high-performance, affordable vehicles, perhaps even a few with a trace of nostalgia baked in.


Nostalgia= Chevy Vega (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[McCall]

More wonderful GM news today:

GM's decision to drop rear-drive Zeta platform is a blow to Australia's Holden
http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=102070
"GM had planned to use the architecture as the basis for products that were scheduled to launch in North America in 2008 as sedans, sport wagons and coupes" - man, didn't that new line up just sound promising?? Oh well.... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rant.gif)

Bob's Bombshell: Two weeks of turmoil at General Motors ends with a
disturbing hit at possible brand cut
http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=102069
My money is on Buick.

[94bird]

Bob Lutz did say that yes, but notice how quickly it was retracted by LaNeve. I bet Bob got his hands slapped for saying such a thing publicly. Dealers were in an uproar the same day.

[prockbp]

i know how we all feel about the Zeta being cancelled...

but do you guys think that the general public cares about affordable rear drive sedans from GM?

is there any kind of research about that question that you know of?

[94bird]

You know, not very long ago I would have said the trends really looked like the public didn't much care about RWD sedans. However, after seeing how well the response has been to the Chrysler 300, Magnum, and upcoming Charger I have some doubts about that. Perhaps there is still some hope out there for RWD cars. GM has a lot of homework to do before they sell a good one that makes them a nice profit though.

[McCall]

I think the sales of the Mustang as well as the revitization of the Caddy really shows that people want RWD. Heck, look at the love of BMW and Mercedes. Don't get me wrong, FWD has it place but just not the FULL line of products.

[pknowles]

(pknowles @ Mar 22 2005, 09:55 PM)
SS Monte Carlo, haven't we learned that hotrod FWD's just don't sell. SVT focus, Colt GHL (think that's right), SRT4 (havn't seen one yet). 

You're kidding right? Hot rod FWDs don't sell? Maybe Maryland is an isolated pocket without a good market for fast FWD cars, but I doubt it. What doesn't sell well is hot rod mid size and larger FWD cars. Compacts are a completely different story.

I mean factory Hod rod FWD's, I see a few nice CRX's and civic's that have some major modifications and they are the very old ones. Mid-Maryland is SUV and high end luxuary car country without a doubt, well at least Mongomary county. Pat and Karen live farther out then I do so I'm sure they see more of a mix. I see more Lamborghini's and 100k+ Porshe's then factory hot rod FWD's, I'm not kidding.

[rpoz-29]

At least at my local Chevy dealer, EVERYTHING is loaded. I saw a $20,000 Cobalt. If they would stock a few stripped down models as well as the loaded ones, people would have more choices, and the dealer would have more sales. The only distinction between like models is their color. Prices are almost identical. And I was so happy when Lutz took the wheel.

[McCall]

Update:
Cadillac may share Sigma architecture; Buick, Pontiac could get
rear-drive models
http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=102119

Well it sounds like the GTO is not dead but it still doesn't look good for the Camaro (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

[94bird]

Don't forget, the first car that Lutz will put into production that he was involved with from start to finish is the Solstice. The others were already well into development before he could have any influence on them.

Phil, fast FWD cars from the factory have been selling well since the mid 80's or so. Not in the same numbers as their plain Jane brethren, but they make a good show. I guess you must live in a pocket where the kids in their 20's (yeh, I'm a little older than that) have a little more money and spend it on BMWs and Porsches. Heck, my Mom still drives her '91 Sentra SE-R. She loves it. Finally this year she may get rid of it, but only because she hit a deer head on and it did some serious damage.

[McCall]

Fresh news today:

Who Gets the Needle First - Buick or Pontiac?
http://channels.netscape.com/ns/autos/pack...ck_pontiac_end1

Camaro clone on GM's wish list
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0.../B01-148937.htm Zeta-light?? Could this be true?

Lutz: U.S. engineers need more hands-on training
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0.../B01-148929.htm

[McCall]

Zeta light? GM looking for ways to build high-performance, rear-drive
models in near future
http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=102208


"The bottom line: GM insiders say they want rwd vehicles, including one in the mold of the Camaro muscle car, which was discontinued in 2002"

Ok, that's a good thing BUT...

"The margin is very low on those vehicles," Hall says. "That's not what GM needs right now. What they need is a high-margin home run....Wagoner said the economics of the derailed Zeta program didn't add up. It was "too expensive for what we wanted to do with it," he said. "This needs to cover a range of price-sensitive segments. The initial designs we saw of Zeta were not what we wanted, so that's where the costs began to come apart. Wagoner also said rwd cars are "not a massive profit-driver decision in the near term." He added: "We need to do it right. In the scheme of things of what's going to drive the business over the next three or four years, this isn't the most critical item we're looking at."

What about the Mustang which is built on a fricken Jaguar chassis?? Don't you think that is a "massive profit-driver"???? What about the 300C which is built on a fricken MB chassis?? Is that not also a "massive profit-driver"???? Aren't both of the cars flying off the lots yet GM still isn't sure that it's what they need right now??? No, lets just build more trucks and SUVs which get crappy gas mileage and will never sell as well again as long as gas prices stay high. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/banghead.gif) (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rant2.gif) (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rant.gif)

Reading stuff like this just pisses me off...

[cdb95z28]

Lutz: U.S. engineers need more hands-on training
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0.../B01-148929.htm

Lutz is partly correct. ( (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rant2.gif) my rant will now be off the 5th Gen topic but on GM`s bigger picture=survival (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rant2.gif) ) But that is not the fault of the engineers. I do believe American engineers are equal to or better than the best oversees. But the the real reason GM is on the sloooowww downward spiral is POOR MANAGEMENT and how their narrow minded thinking affects how the engineers are utilized. No accountability on their poor decisions. When a big company is doing great, of course it`s because of the "board members and management." (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) When it turns sour, well, it`s, it`s the the......economy, yeah the economy! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) He and other top management are part of the problem. Quit worrying about short-term financial expectations (that is: satisfying the, make me a ton of money, and do it quickly, shareholders) and realize there won`t be any money to be had years down the road w/o common sense decisions.
Makes me wonder, How is Toyota`s and Honda`s Upper Management setup? I think this is the true reason they are smashing the Big 3. You can`t get GM`s brASS to, after all these years, think about looking at themselves a different way. In their mind they aren`t the problem.

Remember: Many people thought the giant "Bethlehem Steel" would be around forever. Ha, wrong. I work at one of Bethlehem`s former wire mills. Will GM end up like Bethlehem? Don`t say never.

The UAW isn`t helping things either. But they cannot entirely be thrown to the fire. When the Big 3 where making money hand over fist, the hourly guys should deserve some of the fruit of their labor. The difficult decision is : when is enough, enough.

Medical costs are a big problem, but it is everybody`s problem in this country.

I`m done (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

[94bird]

Jason, the 300's chassis is not from Mercedes. Some of the suspension design is by Mercedes, but not the whole chassis by any means.

[1LEThumper]

It has nothing to do with hands on, health costs, materials...or any of the other bullsh!t.

It has to do with GM doesn't make anything other than pickup trucks and corvettes. What the hell else does the company make? We have a ton of $50k plus caddies that have just STARTED to get attention. We have the Corvette that people still associate with Chevy and think that its cheap no matter how fast it goes. Then we have 1000000000 different pickups, SUVs and small SUVs. What do they make for anyone in their 20s and 30s thats fun to drive? You either buy a Corvette or a pickup, and not everyone right out of high school or college can go get a corvette. So then what? The GTO is almost a joke, sure isn't as good as everyone orginally wrote it up to be. What else is there? They have nothing to compete with the Mustang, nothing to compete with the Miatas ( I know the Solestis..but it isn't out yet), and what about just every day transportation? Hell what about against the 300C? But by god you can get FWD, AWD, RWD, big, small, medium, convertible, 2 door, 4 door, 5 door truck.

Fact of the matter is...GM just didn't think about its vechical line up...they just kept building more and newer SUVs and gave every division a copy of that.

What would be nice would be a fun sporty 2 door family coupe

oh and RWD wouldn't that be a nice change of pace.


Ok I'm done now.

[94bird]

Tony, I wouldn't worry too much about competing with the Miata. Last I read it only sold about 10,000 units last year. Ugh.

GM does most certainly need a big hit with a high volume car. I think that's what the previous post was getting at. Getting lots of smaller hits is almost always the more costly way to go.

The big hits are usually in the markets like the Cobalt and the Impala. Too bad neither car seems to be up to the task. The G6 is doing horribly in the reviews I see. It really does seem like almost every car GM gets to the market nowadays is a huge disappointment. Sad days.

[1LEThumper]

Well I was just using that as an example....the Miata might not be a high selling volume car but it does bring a lot of people to Mazda and those that do buy one seem to be very protective of it...kinda like Jeep owners. GM has never really had that kind of fan base. Look at what the Mustang guys did when Ford was thinking of killing it. GM didn't seem to care to much when they axed the F cars. The only thing that saved the Corvette was the guys at GM staying late and doing work on the C5 at home and after hours.

They need to produce something that moves people......in more ways than one.



Hell remake a 57 chevy or a 69 Camaro....retro or not I don't think they could keep up production enough to supply the demand. Worked for Ford with the new stangs

[rmackintosh]

It has to do with GM doesn't make anything other than pickup trucks and corvettes. What the hell else does the company make?

...so true....THERE IS NOTHING in the ENTIRE GM line that I would consider except a GMC truck (Chevy has managed to F&%K thier trucks up as well (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) ) , a Vette (ain't gonna happen with two kids and a racecar ALREADY in my life), and a few Caddies....the rest is C.R.A.P.

I saw several of the most BUTT UGLY cars EVER MADE today...all new...Malibu's I think....I don't even pay attention any more....but these caught my eye because they were new....GM must have GIVEN THEM AWAY...

THEY SHOULD BE EMBARRASSED TO EVEN PUT THE FREAKIN BOWTIE ON THOSE DAMN PIECES O' CRAP....

(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

[McCall]

...so true....THERE IS NOTHING in the ENTIRE GM line that I would consider except a GMC truck (Chevy has managed to F&%K thier trucks up as well  (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) ) , a Vette (ain't gonna happen with two kids and a racecar ALREADY in my life), and a few Caddies....the rest is C.R.A.P.

I saw several of the most BUTT UGLY cars EVER MADE today...all new...Malibu's I think....I don't even pay attention any more....but these caught my eye because they were new....GM must have GIVEN THEM AWAY...

THEY SHOULD BE EMBARRASSED TO EVEN PUT THE FREAKIN BOWTIE ON THOSE DAMN PIECES O' CRAP....

(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

While I agree with you that most of the product offering is pretty bad, I must say at least they are getting a lot better. The new Cobalt and G6 are LEAGUES above the cars they replaced and the new new Malibu Maxx is a pretty decent car. Yet, you are right as I will never consider owning any of them though (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

Another good article today comparing the Mustang vs. Camaro

Camaro vs. Mustang: A Test of Endurance
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Colum...rticleId=105414

I don't agree with the writer's conclusion of the new GTO though. While the '04 didn't sell very well at all, the '05s are selling 125% better. The projections are for it to run through it's production by mid-summer and if you have noticed you can hardly find any on dealer lots (i.e. a good thing)

Another blog post by Lutz:

http://fastlane.gmblogs.com/archives/2005/...s_c_1.html#more

[00 Trans Ram]

Well, I must honestly admit that I really could care less about General Motors as a corporation. I currently hold no stock in any auto company, and am not thinking of moving to an automotive job, so my knowledge of their corporate/financial position is limited.

All that I care about is what car they put out. The next company (I don't care who - I'd rather American, but I can't be picky) to put out a sexy, RWD, 400+hp, 2 door, sports car will get my $40,000. Will it be a Vette? Maybe. But, it'll be a much easier sell to my wife if it can (theoretically) hold 4 people. If no one is willing to build one, then I'll buy a classic. I simply refuse to buy something that has a "high profit margin" - that's not what I care about.

[rmackintosh]

I simply refuse to buy something that has a "high profit margin" - that's not what I care about.

I agree, if GM is TRULY trying to build a "high margin home run" ....I feel REALLY bad for them... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

Not only is this a stupid direction....they OUGHT to be improving EACH AND EVERY car by 300%...but just WHAT do they have to show for this....NOTHING...

....embarrasing.... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)