 rmackintosh - Can you tell us more about your car? |
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 Dec 30 2003, 03:01 PM
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Advanced Member  Group: Advanced Members Posts: 289 Joined: 30-December 03 From: Verona, VA Member No.: 71  |
Randy- I see from your sig that you run ITE with your Camaro. I'm just curious what all you've done to it. I don't see many fbods roadracing out here with NASA. There are of course more running with SCCA, but I've mostly been to NASA events so I don't get to see much of them. Its interesting to see what others are doing.
One thing in particular I'm wondering about is your front air dam, which I can see in your avatar. When I get done with everything else, I was going to look at building either a removable splitter or an air dam for the nose. |
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Dec 30 2003, 08:38 PM
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Experienced Member Group: Advanced Members Posts: 1,947 Joined: 23-December 03 From: Everett, WA Member No.: 16 |
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Dec 30 2003, 08:54 PM
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Insert catch phrase here Group: Advanced Members Posts: 2,098 Joined: 23-December 03 From: Michigan Member No.: 20 |
Gary, he made the air dam out of the roll plastic from Coleman Racing http://www.colemanracing.com . Later this summer I plan to do something similar.
What are you doing for a wing or spoiler? I seem to remember your car is now carbureted and is making about 500 HP based on a posting I know I saw you make somewhere within the past month. |
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Dec 30 2003, 09:35 PM
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Advanced Member Group: Advanced Members Posts: 827 Joined: 30-December 03 From: Bellevue WA Member No.: 73 |
Anyplace In can see more pictures of that car?
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Dec 30 2003, 10:16 PM
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#5
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Advanced Member Group: Advanced Members Posts: 289 Joined: 30-December 03 From: Verona, VA Member No.: 71 |
Thanks for the big pic Jon.
Mike, thanks for the info. I was getting ready to order a roll of that stuff so I can work on it when I get time. I'd like to do something similar, but with a splitter as well. I honestly don't know enough about aero yet to determine how effective it will be with just the spoiler versus adding the splitter. I already have a belly pan in the front, so I might have to consider that as well. You are correct, my car is carb'ed and supposed to be making about 500 hp. I posted a bunch of info on cc.com. |
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Dec 30 2003, 11:56 PM
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#6
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Advanced Member Group: Advanced Members Posts: 827 Joined: 30-December 03 From: Bellevue WA Member No.: 73 |
IMHO a splitter on the nose of an Fbody is worthless. the frontal area of the car is to flat to really see the benefits of one. If it does work, IMO it wouldnt be worth the time to put one on. And really wouldnt shine until you got WAY up into the MPH's. the big thing you need to worry about is the air that is passing under the car while you are at speed. Less=more. and with the addition of a good solid airdam that goes to the ground this will really minimizethe air going under the car but does require re routing the air flow to the radiator. the big air dam will also increase the amount of downforce on the nose at high speed making it more stable.
there are a number of things you can do to an Fbody to increase how "slick" the car is. But unless you are seeing some serious speeds at the track I don't think it would be worth it. Especially if the car is also a street car. But if you don't mind constantly taking off/putting on parts it mightbe worth looking into. |
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Dec 30 2003, 11:59 PM
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Insert catch phrase here Group: Advanced Members Posts: 2,098 Joined: 23-December 03 From: Michigan Member No.: 20 |
Quite a few of us have road racers now that see no street use. The speeds we would typically get up to at places like VIR would be in the 150 MPH range I think. Gary might be a little faster than that. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif)
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Dec 31 2003, 12:46 AM
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Advanced Member Group: Advanced Members Posts: 289 Joined: 30-December 03 From: Verona, VA Member No.: 71 |
I don't know how fast it will really go, but I went to VIR full for a test day a while back. First session out the clutch started slipping BAD. Even with me feathering the throttle and accelerating relatively slowly, I was able to wind out top gear. With the current gearing, thats about 152 mph, and I know I'll need a lot more than that if I'm able to actually use all the power this thing makes. I'll be changing the ring and pinion, probably for a top speed of at least 170...just to make sure I don't run out at tracks like VIR.
Function on the track is top priority. It will probably be removable, so it doesn't matter how low the air dam and/or splitter is. Anyway, I also have to wonder if its really worth the trouble of building a proper splitter on this car. |
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Dec 31 2003, 01:41 AM
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Experienced Member Group: Advanced Members Posts: 1,947 Joined: 23-December 03 From: Everett, WA Member No.: 16 |
Yes, it is worth the trouble. A splitter will help these cars the same way it helps any car. In roadracing, it's not all about being "slick." In fact, many things (like a big rear wing) make the car less slick. It is all about downforce.
Keeping air from entering below the nose of the car (relocating the radiator intake to the front) is a good step. The less air that gets under the nose, the better--not just for front downforce, but downforce along the length of the car (this is what the sideskirts do--prevent air from entering the low pressure area under the car from the sides). You don't need to be going a million miles an hour to gain benefits either. Look at what a simple air damn does to the front lift on the 911: (IMG:http://www.jonaadland.com/NewPics2/Porschelift.jpg) At only 100 MPH the front axle is being lifted by more than 60 lbs. That's taking away a lot of cornering grip. The simple air dam reduces that to nil. The only difference for an F-Body is how much downforce or lift it has stock. Improving upon that is going to be an improvement. Something like this: (IMG:http://www.derhaag.com/images/1995bodyworksmall.jpg) Is going to provide a big benefit. |
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Dec 31 2003, 01:51 AM
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#10
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Insert catch phrase here Group: Advanced Members Posts: 2,098 Joined: 23-December 03 From: Michigan Member No.: 20 |
QUOTE (Jon A @ Dec 30 2003, 07:41 PM) Improving upon that is going to be an improvement. Sorry, but I couldn't help but chuckle when I read that sentence. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) |
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Dec 31 2003, 01:58 AM
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Experienced Member Group: Advanced Members Posts: 1,947 Joined: 23-December 03 From: Everett, WA Member No.: 16 |
Doh! That was supposed to read:
QUOTE Improving upon that is still going to be an improvement, regardless of what the stock numbers are. I knew I hit that "Add Reply" button prematurely.... |
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Dec 31 2003, 02:23 AM
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#12
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Senior Member Group: Advanced Members Posts: 5,226 Joined: 24-December 03 From: Danville, CA, USA Member No.: 27 |
Well, I can tell you anything you want about my car. I have about 180 pics of it being built from a car I bought on eBay in Kansas for $3500 and had shipped out to California a little over a year ago. The pics are not online (one of these days), but I can email anyone who wants pics of most of the car....gimme a specific area you want to look at. I will give the short story here:
I spent most of the initial build building a car that was structurally built as well as I could at the time. Assisting me was a fabricator who has spent 30+ years in the race car fabrication business building everything from Trans-Am/GT-1 cars to IT cars for the SCCA and other clubs. The roll cage is a work of art....much along the lines of a World Challenge car...looking at Gary's pics of Lou's car....I see a lot of the same principles...except it is all brand new! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I removed as much weight as I could...including all the front/rear bumper supports, extra sheet metal, brackets, etc. and fabricated new bumpers/supports out of roll bar tubing and square stock. The interior is gutted with the stock dash....plastic shell only....replaced with a set of fully mechanical Autometer guages fabbed into the dash. I got out the grinder and ground off EVERY seat belt bracket or other metal that is now unused in the car that came from the factory. The suspension is Ground Control...wanted LG, but couldn't afford to buy the adjustable shocks with the system so went with Ground Control/Koni....to get full adjustability. Went 32mm/Unbalanced Engineering 19mm swaybars...I LIKE adjustability. Springs 650/175. I don't have much time in the car but I believe that I will want it a lot stiffer in the future....I come from racing a SUPER STIFF Datsun 510 for years. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) So stiffer springs/bars may be coming as the budget allows. The drivetrain was left stock except for the bolt ons, Dynatech headers, X-pipe dumped before the diff, 3.73's, and a T2R for budget reasons. Some of that was replaced due to breakage this year....new Griffen Race Radiator, new Spicer/custom aluminum driveshaft, used LG set up 5.5 Quartermaster triple disc going in, and I am rebuilding a 4 bolt main Vette motor with a ZZ4 forged crank, CC 227/233XL Cam, and some REAL NICE TPiS heads.....looking to touch 400rwhp with the light clutch! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Given my budget concerns and the fact that I did NOT want to overbuild the car for the ITE folks around here....did NOT want to get protested first time out....there is plenty I will be doing in the coming years to upgrade to include: Fuel Cell/System Roll Cage through firewall to shock towers Random Tech/LG torque arm Tube Rear Control Arms Tube Front Lower Control Arms LG front crossmember (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ... .... ..... Too many parts, too little time...WAY too little money! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) |
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Dec 31 2003, 02:26 AM
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#13
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Senior Member Group: Advanced Members Posts: 5,226 Joined: 24-December 03 From: Danville, CA, USA Member No.: 27 |
....oh and I would prefer a splitter also, just ran out of time and could not think of an easy way to get it done....anybody does it....let me know!
(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) |
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Dec 31 2003, 03:07 AM
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#14
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Advanced Member Group: Advanced Members Posts: 366 Joined: 27-December 03 From: TEXAS Member No.: 54 |
Randy....if you want....you can email me some pics of the car...and I could put them up for ya. I have DSL line here at the apartment so it wouldn't take me to long to put them up. If there are any ones in particular you would want to show....just shoot me an email.
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Dec 31 2003, 03:09 AM
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Senior Member Group: Advanced Members Posts: 5,226 Joined: 24-December 03 From: Danville, CA, USA Member No.: 27 |
Ok...I will email my favorites to you in few....
(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) |
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Dec 31 2003, 03:20 AM
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#16
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Advanced Member Group: Advanced Members Posts: 289 Joined: 30-December 03 From: Verona, VA Member No.: 71 |
QUOTE (1LEThumper @ Dec 30 2003, 10:07 PM) Randy....if you want....you can email me some pics of the car...and I could put them up for ya. I have DSL line here at the apartment so it wouldn't take me to long to put them up. If there are any ones in particular you would want to show....just shoot me an email. D'oh! I was about to say the same thing. Well, offer still stands...I can host some pics on my page if you want. |
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Dec 31 2003, 03:30 AM
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#17
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Senior Member Group: Advanced Members Posts: 5,226 Joined: 24-December 03 From: Danville, CA, USA Member No.: 27 |
Gary, I just sent a bunch to Anthony......
Anthony, if it is easier, forward them to Gary... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) |
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Dec 31 2003, 03:38 AM
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#18
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Advanced Member Group: Advanced Members Posts: 366 Joined: 27-December 03 From: TEXAS Member No.: 54 |
HAHA...yeah I've got them going up as well speak
Keep checking as I'm still uploading them http://members6.clubphoto.com/anthony54586...488/guest.phtml That link should work.....gotta lot to load up so keep checkin as the night goes on. |
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Dec 31 2003, 03:45 AM
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#19
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Advanced Member Group: Advanced Members Posts: 289 Joined: 30-December 03 From: Verona, VA Member No.: 71 |
Cool!
Thats an interesting monkey bar design (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) |
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Dec 31 2003, 03:47 AM
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Senior Member Group: Advanced Members Posts: 5,226 Joined: 24-December 03 From: Danville, CA, USA Member No.: 27 |
Ok....I comment some...
pic 22 and 38 are my favorite of the DESTRUCTION (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) that goes on before CONSTRUCTION (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) begins...... 22 = I used a torch to burn out all the seam sealer gunk in the car....had several fires going on in there at once! Looks nice painted w/o that goop 38 = THE HUGE MOUND OF WIRES UNDER THE STOCK DASH ( Now I have about 10 wires!) Ah.....Mike, for your information...that mound of wires was about 25 lbs!!! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif) 52 = the cage early on 78 = the cage done and two tone interior paint...get LOTS of comments on that! People notice it while I am ON TRACK and come to look! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) |
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Dec 31 2003, 03:54 AM
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Insert catch phrase here Group: Advanced Members Posts: 2,098 Joined: 23-December 03 From: Michigan Member No.: 20 |
QUOTE (rmackintosh @ Dec 30 2003, 09:47 PM) 38 = THE HUGE MOUND OF WIRES UNDER THE STOCK DASH ( Now I have about 10 wires!) Ah.....Mike, for your information...that mound of wires was about 25 lbs!!! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif) That's something I know I need to work on, but all I did was tie up the wires that I unplugged underneath the dash. I haven't taken the time to unhook and take out any wires except out of the doors when I gutted them. Electronics are not my specialty and with my luck I'd cut a very valuable piece of wiring that would cost me a lot of money to replace once I figured out I still needed it. How did you know what you could and could not remove? |
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Dec 31 2003, 03:55 AM
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#22
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You're my chicane Group: Advanced Members Posts: 475 Joined: 23-December 03 From: So. Cal. Member No.: 13 |
I must say that you have a very impressive car. It is nice to see such a clean well done race car. I'm looking foward to more pics.
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Dec 31 2003, 04:04 AM
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#23
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Senior Member Group: Advanced Members Posts: 5,226 Joined: 24-December 03 From: Danville, CA, USA Member No.: 27 |
uh Mike.....I am almost afraid to tell you.... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) ......I always considered myself good at car electronics UNTIL I worked on THIS car...
Do you have the car manuals? I have both, and the wiring is covered in the second which is 1/2 the size of a phone book!!!! I told my fabricator that I wasn't gonna touch that stuff either, but he BELIEVES that there is ONLY ONE WAY to build a race car and ripped all that stuff aside and dumped it into the interior as in that pic while I wasn't in his shop! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif) He had a big smile when I came back to the shop that weekend......I sat down with the manual EVERY FREAKIN NIGHT FOR about 3 weeks....each diagram page refers you to about 5 more pages....and bookmarked that thing 1,000 times.....turns out you only need about 5 wires from the harness up front to the interior to work stuff like PCM, Fuel Pump, Ignition, etc.....I thought I was going INSANE figuring that out! I trimmed EACH wire out of the harness INDIVIDUALLY to be safe....wired it back up and ... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif) EVERYBODY who watched me was AMAZED when it fired the VERY FIRST TRY!!! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) |
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Dec 31 2003, 04:10 AM
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#24
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Insert catch phrase here Group: Advanced Members Posts: 2,098 Joined: 23-December 03 From: Michigan Member No.: 20 |
I'm going to have to put that one off for awhile. Maybe next winter. This winter my list is still so long if something works, I'm not messing with it. Remember that phrase. I use it a lot. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) I might add something to the car like a wing or front air dam, and I will change out the hood and windshield, because it's pretty hard to mess up those things and they're big gains. Removing wiring will wait.
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Dec 31 2003, 04:12 AM
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#25
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Senior Member Group: Advanced Members Posts: 5,226 Joined: 24-December 03 From: Danville, CA, USA Member No.: 27 |
Mike F....thanks a lot! I may be on a budget.....but I gotta look good! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)
....some more comments..... 107 = shows how tight the bars are to the front windsheild....I am a BIG GUY, and I never come close to a bar in that car....except the one above the driver's door. Feels better than when I drove it stock! 118 = the begginning of the front bumper/rad shroud rebuild....don't have a great shot of the aluminum box to the radiator 127 = fabbed the brake ducts INTO the swaybar mount so the tire wouldn't SHRED it when at full lock....doesn't even hit it! 124 = custom brake ducts that force 100% of the air from duct INTO the Porsche rotor from the ProSpeed kit!! SWEET! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) |
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Dec 31 2003, 04:19 AM
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#26
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Advanced Member Group: Advanced Members Posts: 366 Joined: 27-December 03 From: TEXAS Member No.: 54 |
Did I get them all? I should have them all uploaded and arranged now. Let me know if I forgot one.
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Dec 31 2003, 04:23 AM
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#27
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Senior Member Group: Advanced Members Posts: 5,226 Joined: 24-December 03 From: Danville, CA, USA Member No.: 27 |
....think you got em all.....I have more if any have an interest in a particular item, but those cover the most things...didn't include stuff you all have seen a million times like suspension and engine stuff.
Thanks Anthony! |
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Dec 31 2003, 04:36 AM
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#28
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Insert catch phrase here Group: Advanced Members Posts: 2,098 Joined: 23-December 03 From: Michigan Member No.: 20 |
Randy, how did you make the aluminum rotor ducting that mounts to your hub? Let me guess, your fabricator got bored one day. It looks pretty easy, but my fabricating skills are minimal at best. You wouldn't have a couple of spare ones laying around would you? (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)
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Dec 31 2003, 04:48 AM
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#29
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Senior Member Group: Advanced Members Posts: 5,226 Joined: 24-December 03 From: Danville, CA, USA Member No.: 27 |
Mike....no....I made those....he did all the aluminum welding....pretty much how it went...he just built the cage and welded it in...all else was done by me or my dad....except welding.... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
the brake ducts are flat peice of 1/8 inch aluminum cut to fit INSIDE the rotor....looked like a donut with a circle cut out for the hub. I got longer bolts for the hub that now poke through the back of the spindle so I can use nuts to tie the aluminum to the back of the hub....the donut is slit so I can slide it over the hub and then I used little machine screws to reassemble the donut. For the hose end, I made a 3 inch tube from aluminum, formed it with a hammer so that it would squeeze down to the shape of the donut on one side, cut a hole in the donut and had him weld the tube onto the donut. I will send a better pic to Anthony to put up so you can see what my gibberish means.... |
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Dec 31 2003, 05:00 AM
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#30
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Advanced Member Group: Advanced Members Posts: 366 Joined: 27-December 03 From: TEXAS Member No.: 54 |
pics up
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Dec 31 2003, 06:29 AM
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#31
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Member Group: Advanced Members Posts: 37 Joined: 30-December 03 Member No.: 65 |
Wow. That is a serious race car, Randy. Outstanding.
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Dec 31 2003, 03:52 PM
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#32
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No El-Use-O. Group: Advanced Members Posts: 2,368 Joined: 27-December 03 From: SW Michigan Member No.: 52 |
Pretty slick ride.
One question though. Isn't SCCA Improved Touring rules the same as SCCA Street Prepared autox rules when comparing engine rules? Meaning balanced, blueprinted, bored .040, milled heads, port matched, and other wise stock cam, heads, valvetrain. Typical bolt ons also allowed. |
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Dec 31 2003, 04:03 PM
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#33
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Advanced Member Group: Advanced Members Posts: 289 Joined: 30-December 03 From: Verona, VA Member No.: 71 |
QUOTE (ESPCamaro @ Dec 31 2003, 10:52 AM) One question though. Isn't SCCA Improved Touring rules the same as SCCA Street Prepared autox rules when comparing engine rules? Meaning balanced, blueprinted, bored .040, milled heads, port matched, and other wise stock cam, heads, valvetrain. Typical bolt ons also allowed. No, he runs in ITE which is kind of a catch all class. I think the original concept of that class was to have a place for cars to run that came out of other race series, like World Challenge. The rules do vary some by region though. I know I could run my car in ITE in my region, and the engine mods are way beyond SP autox rules. |
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Dec 31 2003, 04:16 PM
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#34
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No El-Use-O. Group: Advanced Members Posts: 2,368 Joined: 27-December 03 From: SW Michigan Member No.: 52 |
QUOTE (GaryK @ Dec 31 2003, 10:03 AM) QUOTE (ESPCamaro @ Dec 31 2003, 10:52 AM) One question though. Isn't SCCA Improved Touring rules the same as SCCA Street Prepared autox rules when comparing engine rules? Meaning balanced, blueprinted, bored .040, milled heads, port matched, and other wise stock cam, heads, valvetrain. Typical bolt ons also allowed. No, he runs in ITE which is kind of a catch all class. I think the original concept of that class was to have a place for cars to run that came out of other race series, like World Challenge. The rules do vary some by region though. I know I could run my car in ITE in my region, and the engine mods are way beyond SP autox rules. I did not realize that ITE was any different from ITA,ITB,ITC,ITS etc. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) |
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Dec 31 2003, 04:28 PM
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#35
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Advanced Member Group: Advanced Members Posts: 289 Joined: 30-December 03 From: Verona, VA Member No.: 71 |
Well, I am by no means an expert on it, so I could be wrong. In a way, it is different from the other IT classes like you said though. The cars in ITE don't seem to be on a very level playing field because of the different cars and series that can run. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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Dec 31 2003, 04:59 PM
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#36
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Insert catch phrase here Group: Advanced Members Posts: 2,098 Joined: 23-December 03 From: Michigan Member No.: 20 |
You're right. ITE is very similar to AIX for what I can tell. You get all sorts of cars in there. If Randy does well there and decided to come to AIX, look out! At least he'd be racing in the west region instead of against us. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)
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Dec 31 2003, 07:37 PM
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#37
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Senior Member Group: Advanced Members Posts: 5,226 Joined: 24-December 03 From: Danville, CA, USA Member No.: 27 |
Yeah...ITE is a very different than other IT classes...I know, I ran in ITC for 9+ years....you must follow basic IT/GCR safety rules and.....heck, let me just cut and paste my rule book in here for you:
"Cars must be a tub based chassis. (No tube framed cars allowed). Cars must run on D.O.T. tires" (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) This does, as others have said, vary by region however.. |
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