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> Diesels - only for towing vehicles?, Hybrid vs. diesel
94bird
post Aug 8 2007, 12:14 AM
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I'm interested in what most of you think regarding the below article. As some of you may know, I'm not a big diesel fan, but as fate sometimes deals us a cruel hand, I've been working on diesel engine calibration for a couple of years now, and have recently taken a job at GM's Milford Proving Grounds calibrating the 4.5L diesel that will be coming out in 1/2 ton trucks for '09. Much of the auto industry has big plans for diesel and I'd like to hear if you agree with the writer of the below article or if you might find a use for a 1/2 ton Silverado or F150 with 500 lbs*ft of torque. Or, let's say, something along the size of a Ford Fusion with a 2.0L diesel in it, making 300 lbs*ft of torque.


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From 8/6 Automotive News:

Any time I drive a prototype vehicle around Los Angeles, the first question from fellow drivers is not "Hey, is that the new Volvo?" but rather "Does that come in a hybrid?"

Are you sick of the hybrid hype yet? Evidently, American car shoppers aren't. J.D. Power and Associates predicts 2007 will be the biggest year ever for gasoline-electric powertrains. As the Detroit 3 join Toyota, Honda and Nissan with their own hybrids, especially in light trucks, their popularity will likely get even stronger.

Yet, seemingly, following any story I write about the Toyota Prius or any other hybrid, I get inundated with hate e-mail from diesel-loving skeptics.

"Diesel is the answer!" the elbow-patch crowd exclaims. "Haven't you been to Europe? See how successful they are over there? Just you watch. Diesel will catch on in America as well."

I'm not buying it.

Diesel joy in England

I lived in London for nearly a year, and I experienced the diesel miracle. I found joy behind the wheel of a Ford Mondeo diesel that was far better than its petrol-powered siblings. In addition to its wondrous torque, the Mondeo delivered my wife and me on a 600-mile jaunt to England's Lake District on one tank of fuel. Similarly, I was smitten with little Peugeots and VWs with gutsy diesels under the hood.

But Eurodiesels make up for their cost premium over petrol cars thanks to massive tax breaks from Europe's national governments. Diesel fuel is cheaper for the same reason. Without those subsidies, the retail story would likely be quite different.

Then there is the emissions quarrel. A survey by the United Kingdom's WhatCar? magazine showed that the Honda Civic Hybrid, Toyota Prius and Lexus RX 400h hybrids are greener than their counterpart diesels in terms of carbon dioxide emissions. The only diesels that outperformed the Civic Hybrid and Prius were a couple 1.0-liter buzz bombs that will never make it to American roads.

But that doesn't stop the oil-burners from trying to convince us that diesel is the way.

I spent a week driving the new Mercedes-Benz E320 Bluetec. Technically, I shouldn't have been driving it in California, as it doesn't pass emissions regs here. But with a nudge and a wink, the keys were in my hand.

For all the publicity surrounding Bluetec, I expected blistering performance and astonishing mileage. I got the former, but not so much the latter.

Nothing eye-popping

In a 955-mile week, which included a 600-mile freeway-only dash to the Sierra Nevada Mountains, the diesel delivered a respectable but hardly eye-popping 30 mpg. That's basically the same mileage figure delivered by the Lexus hybrid RX 400h sportwagon and GS 450h sedan that the diesel crowd loves to bash.

Even on the 200-mile return run to Mojave that entailed a 5,000-foot descent -- feathering the throttle the whole way -- the Bluetec's mileage improved to just 33.3 mpg. So much for its 35 mpg EPA highway rating.

On the performance side, the Bluetec was indeed a star. Its staggering 400 pounds-feet of torque made quick work of passing big rigs on I-395 and quickly dispatched the two-lane freeway's Mad Max aspect.

But in city driving, the Mercedes' transmission jarringly surged between first, second and third gears. Pulling sedately from a red light routinely resulted in something like whiplash, as the diesel hunted to find the right combination of efficiency and power. This dysfunction repeated itself in slow-and-go freeway conditions as well.

Diesels have made huge strides since the clattering, stinky '70s VW Rabbits and their glow plugs. But diesels will always have a particulate perception problem, no matter how clean they claim their emissions are. Even though automakers and refiners now are trapping particulate crud as small as five microns, it isn't good enough.

Crud in the blood

The new California standard may require filtering below two microns. Those minuscule carcinogenic particles remain aloft for weeks and are absorbed directly into the bloodstream. Yuck. If the petroleum refiners don't play ball and clean up the fuel, that's an expensive moving target for engine makers to hit.

"The horrible Achilles heel for the diesel people is that particulates are much harder to manage than hydrocarbons," said Eric Noble, analyst with The Car Lab in Orange, Calif. "They're already doing pretty unnatural acts, like putting cans of urine onto the cars to meet the current standards. You can only imagine how hard it will be to meet the future standards."

Finally, there's the matter of obtaining ultralow-sulfur diesel fuel. Mercedes apocalyptically warned that filling the Bluetec with anything but that fuel would result in emissions system damage, plagues of locusts and the return of disco.

Upon pulling into Mobil, Arco, Shell, Alliance and two Chevron stations in blue-collar San Pedro, Calif., I was unable to find a pump that dispensed regular diesel fuel, let alone a place that sold the ultralow-sulfur variety.

Realize that San Pedro is a town full of building contractors who will argue for hours whether their Cummins Ram pickup can kick the snot out of your PowerStroke F-250. Still, it took a 13-mile journey to find a Shell station that sold the right stuff.

That's the final straw. With a hybrid, any filling station will do. Heck, in the near future, any wall outlet will do, what with rapid advances in plug-in hybrid technology.

Then consider that Toyota sells nearly as many hybrids in America as BMW or Mercedes sells total cars, let alone their small fraction of diesels, and you see the consumer already has made the decision. Plus, hybrids are a natural gateway to fuel cell vehicles.

Sorry, oil-burners, you missed your chance. Hybrids got the jump. Diesel has too steep a mountain to climb, even if it has 400 pounds-feet of torque.

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Posts in this topic
94bird   Diesels - only for towing vehicles?   Aug 8 2007, 12:14 AM
z28racergirl   Biodiesel. Make it yourself and recycle used veggi...   Aug 8 2007, 12:50 AM
Pilot   QUOTE (z28racergirl @ Aug 7 2007, 08:50 P...   Aug 8 2007, 01:06 AM
94bird   QUOTE (Pilot @ Aug 7 2007, 09:06 PM) Plus...   Aug 8 2007, 02:53 AM
sgarnett   My thoughts, in no particular order: 1) I'm n...   Aug 8 2007, 02:28 AM
94bird   QUOTE (sgarnett @ Aug 7 2007, 10:28 PM) 2...   Aug 8 2007, 02:43 AM
BigEnos   I'm a global warming skeptic, so the whole ...   Aug 8 2007, 03:06 AM
Mericet   Did not read the article but my thoughts could be ...   Aug 8 2007, 03:43 AM
94bird   QUOTE (Mericet @ Aug 7 2007, 11:43 PM) Di...   Aug 8 2007, 01:01 PM
poSSum   I love torque. The 5.3 in our Silverado doesn...   Aug 8 2007, 04:18 AM
sgarnett   I'm not a global warming skeptic, but I don...   Aug 8 2007, 12:43 PM
94bird   QUOTE (sgarnett @ Aug 8 2007, 08:43 AM) I...   Aug 8 2007, 01:03 PM
sgarnett   I guess I didn't really answer one of the ques...   Aug 8 2007, 01:02 PM
mitchntx   Had it not been for a family situation, I wouldn...   Aug 8 2007, 04:13 PM
sgarnett   QUOTE (mitchntx @ Aug 8 2007, 12:13 PM) I...   Aug 10 2007, 11:09 AM
BigEnos   Just to clarify what I mean when I say I'm a g...   Aug 8 2007, 04:53 PM
pknowles   QUOTE (BigEnos @ Aug 8 2007, 12:53 PM) Wh...   Aug 8 2007, 06:27 PM
sgarnett   QUOTE (BigEnos @ Aug 8 2007, 12:53 PM) Th...   Aug 8 2007, 07:31 PM
BigEnos   QUOTE (sgarnett @ Aug 8 2007, 01:31 PM) Q...   Aug 8 2007, 08:23 PM
Sam Strano   Just wanted add a few of my own thoughts here: I ...   Aug 8 2007, 07:58 PM
sgarnett   QUOTE (94bird @ Aug 7 2007, 08:14 PM) ===...   Aug 8 2007, 08:33 PM
mitchntx   Anyone ever watch "Bullsh!t" on Show...   Aug 8 2007, 09:24 PM
jeffburch   The wife is in the market for a new car. We discus...   Aug 8 2007, 10:15 PM
94bird   QUOTE (jeffburch @ Aug 8 2007, 06:15 PM) ...   Aug 9 2007, 02:39 AM
sgarnett   QUOTE (94bird @ Aug 7 2007, 08:14 PM) Fro...   Aug 9 2007, 01:05 AM
trackbird   QUOTE (sgarnett @ Aug 8 2007, 09:05 PM) Q...   Aug 9 2007, 01:11 AM
94bird   QUOTE (sgarnett @ Aug 8 2007, 09:05 PM) Q...   Aug 9 2007, 02:32 AM
Ojustracing   QUOTE (94bird @ Aug 8 2007, 08:32 PM) I b...   Aug 10 2007, 12:05 PM
robz71lm7   QUOTE (sgarnett @ Aug 8 2007, 09:05 PM) Q...   Aug 10 2007, 02:06 PM
BTA01   I would definitely consider both a 1/2 ton diesel ...   Aug 9 2007, 01:21 AM
jeffburch   I can? Great. Where do I send her? jb   Aug 9 2007, 07:10 PM
trackbird   QUOTE (jeffburch @ Aug 9 2007, 03:10 PM) ...   Aug 9 2007, 10:27 PM
94bird   QUOTE (trackbird @ Aug 9 2007, 06:27 PM) ...   Aug 10 2007, 01:12 AM
jeffburch   QUOTE (trackbird @ Aug 9 2007, 05:27 PM) ...   Aug 10 2007, 03:00 AM
Car Enthusiast   sorry for to pick out a point above and bring it b...   Aug 10 2007, 02:26 AM
sgarnett   My point was that replacing old OR new growth fore...   Aug 10 2007, 03:17 AM
rpoz-29   What surprises me is even with all the advances in...   Aug 10 2007, 01:26 PM
pknowles   QUOTE (rpoz-29 @ Aug 10 2007, 09:26 ...   Aug 10 2007, 02:01 PM
94bird   QUOTE (pknowles @ Aug 10 2007, 10:01 AM) ...   Aug 11 2007, 03:06 AM
Ojustracing   QUOTE (rpoz-29 @ Aug 10 2007, 07:26 ...   Aug 10 2007, 02:21 PM
Bud M   QUOTE (rpoz-29 @ Aug 10 2007, 06:26 ...   Aug 30 2007, 03:21 PM
sgarnett   In the 70s, most cars, and especially econoboxes, ...   Aug 10 2007, 09:10 PM
DRD T-bone   A few points: -Hybrid batteries are recyclable an...   Aug 13 2007, 05:11 PM
94bird   Biodiesel can bring it's own issues, such as w...   Aug 14 2007, 01:02 AM
Pilot   That's a very sound point. I recall learning ...   Aug 14 2007, 08:54 AM
sgarnett   In some ways, I think the cost of oil is still way...   Aug 14 2007, 11:19 PM
DRD T-bone   QUOTE (sgarnett @ Aug 14 2007, 04:19 PM) ...   Aug 15 2007, 07:42 PM
FBody383   QUOTE (DRD T-bone @ Aug 15 2007, 02...   Aug 15 2007, 09:03 PM
DRD T-bone   QUOTE (FBody383 @ Aug 15 2007, 02:03 PM) ...   Aug 15 2007, 11:30 PM
FBody383   QUOTE (DRD T-bone @ Aug 15 2007, 06...   Aug 16 2007, 07:41 PM
BigEnos   So the gov't subsidizes something that it also...   Aug 16 2007, 07:38 PM
94bird   As a quick aside, it's my understanding that b...   Aug 17 2007, 04:35 PM
CMC#5   hahaha motor gas is not subsidized in the US...it ...   Aug 27 2007, 08:21 PM
DRD T-bone   Before my foot completely gets stuck in my mouth, ...   Aug 27 2007, 10:36 PM
CMC#5   That is great comedy. A very good example of how t...   Aug 28 2007, 02:06 PM
DRD T-bone   QUOTE (CMC#5 @ Aug 28 2007, 07:06 AM) Th...   Aug 28 2007, 02:57 PM
FBody383   QUOTE (CMC#5 @ Aug 27 2007, 03:21 PM) hah...   Aug 28 2007, 04:28 PM
CMC#5   QUOTE Now you're going to make me read that ...   Aug 30 2007, 12:41 PM
rmackintosh   Diesels aren't just for towing anymore.... Ba...   Aug 30 2007, 02:42 PM

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