Installing a 220V circuit for a 220V welder - need help. Options

[Torque]

Thanks for the explanation on Romex. The melting wire having the metal conduit as a shield/last grounding resort makes a lot of sense. Hopefully with the way they have codes these days with all the new circuits I installed (one for fridge, one for dishwasher, one for disposal, one for range hood, one for the microwave, 2 for lighting, 2 for outlets in the kitchen alone), seems like I'd be challenged to overload the romex by having it close to impossible to oversubscribe.

Now I just worry about the remaining knob and tube wiring in the rest of the house ;-)

[firehawkclone]

This tread came at the perfect time. I've needed to do this since i bought the new house.

[nape]

As ironic as this is going to sound, I had an electrical issue at the hotel I'm staying at tonight.

I started noticing a "zip zip" or "bzzzt" sound. At first, I thought it was just the hard drive on my laptop which was on the desk and I was sitting on the bed. Then, my laptop went to sleep and I still noticed the sound but it was coming from the direction of the door. After a while, I noticed it seemed to be coming from the wall outlet. Sure enough, I turned off the lights in the room and could see an arc behind the trim plate.

Yet another irony, I left my tool bag in the back of another guy's truck today so I brought them into my room for the night. So, I took off the trim plate and the hot wire on the receptacle is arcing away and melting the recept. I went up to the front and talked to the desk girl (who likes us, 8 guys from the contractor are staying here). I didn't want to move rooms so I offered to fix it for the night.

Anyway, the issue with the wiring is that the lazy (or unknowing) person who wired this place up didn't bother to pig tail the recepts and just decided to hook and go on each side of the recept. The problem with this technique is that it puts the device in series with the circuit and depends on the device to take the load of everything on the circuit, not just what is on that recept. The other issue that I found is that the convenience recepts for the same room number on different floors (ex. 102, 202, 302) share the same circuit. Therefore, there is the opportunity for 3 mini fridges, 3 microwaves, 3 alarm clocks, 9 lamps plus whatever the renter plugs in to be on the same 15A breaker on #14 wire.

Oh, and I forgot to mention, I found out the whole place is wired in Romex.

Are you glad that the owner of the building was able to save money building the place now that you know some of what goes on? Strict codes may cost more initially, but piece of mind is worth it in the long run. The same goes for the trained craftsmen that build these buildings and know the codes vs. guys off the street with a pair of wire strippers.

Support your local IBEW Electricians and build Union (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

PS- I used the microwave to make mini pizzas tonight. Tomorrow, I think I'll go to Subway and leave the electrical work at work. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

This post has been edited by nape: Nov 11 2008, 04:24 AM

[nape]

Thanks for the explanation on Romex. The melting wire having the metal conduit as a shield/last grounding resort makes a lot of sense. Hopefully with the way they have codes these days with all the new circuits I installed (one for fridge, one for dishwasher, one for disposal, one for range hood, one for the microwave, 2 for lighting, 2 for outlets in the kitchen alone), seems like I'd be challenged to overload the romex by having it close to impossible to oversubscribe.

Now I just worry about the remaining knob and tube wiring in the rest of the house ;-)

Knob and tube isn't too scary (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

In some of the old buildings in Chicago, when they were originally converted over to electric lighting from gas lighting, the gas pipe was reused and they just pulled wire through it. Theoretically, this works great because gas pipe is just like Rigid electrical conduit. Super safe!

Well, super safe until you pull the plug out of the pipe to get a little slack in the wire or re-pull... and GAS COMES OUT! Whoever originally did the conversion never seperated the "gas" and "electrical" pipe work!

I'll take knob and tube over that any day, unless there's been a squirrel in the attic chewing on it... which leads me into the next reason big cities need pipe. The mice and rats would have the electrical system in shambles in a few days with as much as they like to chew insulation.

A while ago, the contractor my best friend works for got a job running 6" EMT pipe in a hotel re-model downtown. The pipe wasn't for anything electrical. It was for the beer and soda lines running to the bar from the barrels/syrup bags in the basement. They have to do that otherwise the rats will chew holes in the clear plastic tubing and suck the sweet syrup for all the drinks.

The more you know... (you wish you didn't)

This post has been edited by nape: Nov 11 2008, 04:40 AM

[sgarnett]

The shoemaker's children have no shoes...

Umm, yeah, I bought my house from a family of electricians. Never do that (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Torque]

Anyway, the issue with the wiring is that the lazy (or unknowing) person who wired this place up didn't bother to pig tail the recepts and just decided to hook and go on each side of the recept. The problem with this technique is that it puts the device in series with the circuit and depends on the device to take the load of everything on the circuit, not just what is on that recept. The other issue that I found is that the convenience recepts for the same room number on different floors (ex. 102, 202, 302) share the same circuit. Therefore, there is the opportunity for 3 mini fridges, 3 microwaves, 3 alarm clocks, 9 lamps plus whatever the renter plugs in to be on the same 15A breaker on #14 wire.

Oh, and I forgot to mention, I found out the whole place is wired in Romex.

Are you glad that the owner of the building was able to save money building the place now that you know some of what goes on? Strict codes may cost more initially, but piece of mind is worth it in the long run. The same goes for the trained craftsmen that build these buildings and know the codes vs. guys off the street with a pair of wire strippers.

Support your local IBEW Electricians and build Union (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

PS- I used the microwave to make mini pizzas tonight. Tomorrow, I think I'll go to Subway and leave the electrical work at work. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Wow, that's intense. By pigtail, does that mean you have a hot, neutral and ground wire already screwed (solidly) into the receptacle and you use a wire nut to join the pigtail and the other up and downstream (for lack of a better term) wires rather than using all the screws on the receptacle to secure the wires? Is that usually a code thing or just a best practice?

Glad you made it out ok and hope at least the smoke detector works in that place.

[nape]

Wow, that's intense. By pigtail, does that mean you have a hot, neutral and ground wire already screwed (solidly) into the receptacle and you use a wire nut to join the pigtail and the other up and downstream (for lack of a better term) wires rather than using all the screws on the receptacle to secure the wires? Is that usually a code thing or just a best practice?

Glad you made it out ok and hope at least the smoke detector works in that place.

Correct, that's what I mean by pigtail. The other thing is that wire nuts are just "splice caps". Some wire nuts claim to be able to make a correct splice by just putting 2, 3, etc wires inside then just turning. That's BS, you should always twist the wires clockwise with a pair of side cutters (lineman's pliers, etc) to make your splice, then tighten the wire cap on clockwise to cover the connection. That way, you have a chance of working it hot if you need to and the splice won't open up just by taking the wire cap off.

As far as not hooking two wires on a side and/or terminal, it is best practice always and it is code in Chicago. The same goes for stabbing solid wire in the holes on the back of the receptacle, best practice to not do it and it's illegal by Chicago code. It's more likely to loosen up over time and at that point there isn't anything holding it in. At least by making a hook on the wire (clockwise) and putting it under a side screw, it's less likely to come off even if it does loosen up.

Also, when stripping solid wire (which includes Romex) practice not knicking the wire. A knick in the wire is a pre-failure and if you do have a problem or when the wire becomes old and brittle, it'll be most likely to fail there.

ALWAYS, Hot on top, ground down. - meaning, put the hot wire on the top brass colored screw if mounted vertical or either screw mounted horizontal, the neutral on the lower silver screw if mounted vertical or the opposite silver screw if mounted horizontal, and the ground screw should be down or on the bottom.

If everyone would follow the rules, this stuff would be easy...

[Torque]

Wow, that's intense. By pigtail, does that mean you have a hot, neutral and ground wire already screwed (solidly) into the receptacle and you use a wire nut to join the pigtail and the other up and downstream (for lack of a better term) wires rather than using all the screws on the receptacle to secure the wires? Is that usually a code thing or just a best practice?

Glad you made it out ok and hope at least the smoke detector works in that place.

Correct, that's what I mean by pigtail. The other thing is that wire nuts are just "splice caps". Some wire nuts claim to be able to make a correct splice by just putting 2, 3, etc wires inside then just turning. That's BS, you should always twist the wires clockwise with a pair of side cutters (lineman's pliers, etc) to make your splice, then tighten the wire cap on clockwise to cover the connection. That way, you have a chance of working it hot if you need to and the splice won't open up just by taking the wire cap off.

As far as not hooking two wires on a side and/or terminal, it is best practice always and it is code in Chicago. The same goes for stabbing solid wire in the holes on the back of the receptacle, best practice to not do it and it's illegal by Chicago code. It's more likely to loosen up over time and at that point there isn't anything holding it in. At least by making a hook on the wire (clockwise) and putting it under a side screw, it's less likely to come off even if it does loosen up.

Also, when stripping solid wire (which includes Romex) practice not knicking the wire. A knick in the wire is a pre-failure and if you do have a problem or when the wire becomes old and brittle, it'll be most likely to fail there.

ALWAYS, Hot on top, ground down. - meaning, put the hot wire on the top brass colored screw if mounted vertical or either screw mounted horizontal, the neutral on the lower silver screw if mounted vertical or the opposite silver screw if mounted horizontal, and the ground screw should be down or on the bottom.

If everyone would follow the rules, this stuff would be easy...

Thx for the info. Very helpful. That seems to be what the electricians did with some of the work they did in my kitchen (I did most of it) and I followed their lead. However I'm thinking I may not have followed those rules in the garage and bathroom I'm working on so I'll go back and double check. Good info, thx!

[TOO Z MAXX]

As ironic as this is going to sound, I had an electrical issue at the hotel I'm staying at tonight.

I started noticing a "zip zip" or "bzzzt" sound. At first, I thought it was just the hard drive on my laptop which was on the desk and I was sitting on the bed. Then, my laptop went to sleep and I still noticed the sound but it was coming from the direction of the door. After a while, I noticed it seemed to be coming from the wall outlet. Sure enough, I turned off the lights in the room and could see an arc behind the trim plate.

Yet another irony, I left my tool bag in the back of another guy's truck today so I brought them into my room for the night. So, I took off the trim plate and the hot wire on the receptacle is arcing away and melting the recept. I went up to the front and talked to the desk girl (who likes us, 8 guys from the contractor are staying here). I didn't want to move rooms so I offered to fix it for the night.

Anyway, the issue with the wiring is that the lazy (or unknowing) person who wired this place up didn't bother to pig tail the recepts and just decided to hook and go on each side of the recept. The problem with this technique is that it puts the device in series with the circuit and depends on the device to take the load of everything on the circuit, not just what is on that recept. The other issue that I found is that the convenience recepts for the same room number on different floors (ex. 102, 202, 302) share the same circuit. Therefore, there is the opportunity for 3 mini fridges, 3 microwaves, 3 alarm clocks, 9 lamps plus whatever the renter plugs in to be on the same 15A breaker on #14 wire.

Oh, and I forgot to mention, I found out the whole place is wired in Romex.

Are you glad that the owner of the building was able to save money building the place now that you know some of what goes on? Strict codes may cost more initially, but piece of mind is worth it in the long run. The same goes for the trained craftsmen that build these buildings and know the codes vs. guys off the street with a pair of wire strippers.

Support your local IBEW Electricians and build Union (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

PS- I used the microwave to make mini pizzas tonight. Tomorrow, I think I'll go to Subway and leave the electrical work at work. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

LOL I knew you were a union electrician, you guys all hate romex wire. The city of San Fransisco has some strange rules about romex because the union complained so much. Conduit is the way to go, but nobody is willing to pay for it.

[marka]

Howdy,

First time I ever heard anything bad (safety wise) about Romex for residential indoor use.

I'm not an electrician, but I've done lots of my own electrical work and tried to get knowledgeable about it.

I.e. I'm that guy on the street with a pair of wire strippers. :-)

Mark

[sgarnett]

On the shoeless cobbler's kids topic, I screwed up by buying my house from a family of electricians. It LOOKED good, with neatly wired big industrial salvage fuse boxes (three together in the garage), umpteen different lightly-loaded circuits, and 200A service (unusual for a 40-year-old semi-rural house in this area).

The voyage of discovery started, in fact, when I bought the welder and wanted to add a circuit. I couldn't figure out which breaker the washer was on. That was because the 110V washer outlet was connected to one one side of the 30A dryer outlet. No worries, though (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) Even though the wiring was sized for 30A, it had a 50A breaker to handle both loads (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/banghead.gif) I also swapped out the 100A slow breaker for the heat pump outdoor unit with a 50A slow breaker as specified on the name plate, downsized the water heater breaker and pulled new wires for it, found a big conduit to Romex junction box with all the grounds twisted together and the pigtail twisted through a screw hole (no screw), and so on.

This post has been edited by sgarnett: Nov 12 2008, 02:54 PM

[Machine]

2 things that I was thinking regarding your application:

Do the most recent codes still allow you to mark a white wire as a hot wire (taped black, for instance)? I think you mentioned using a white as hot in your first post.

Welders I believe are notoriously hard on electrical systems. I would go out of my way to assure good grounds (wire it back to the panel).

[nape]

Do the most recent codes still allow you to mark a white wire as a hot wire (taped black, for instance)? I think you mentioned using a white as hot in your first post.

All wires must be the correct color up to and including 8ga wire. After that, you're allowed to distinguish with phasing tape. However, I doubt he'll get dinged on a pre-sale inspection (likely the only inspection that would ever take place). Most inspectors (even city/municipality) aren't that thorough.

It is a safety issue to phase one of the hots Black and the other Red. The phasing tape ought to at least clue in the clueless that it's not 110v.

Welders I believe are notoriously hard on electrical systems. I would go out of my way to assure good grounds (wire it back to the panel).

That isn't necessary. The ground will only see voltage and current in a fault situation. The only two conductors that will see anything will be the two hots with 220v. If Romex, make sure your splices are good. If pipe, make sure all your locknuts and set screws are firmly tightened and you're safe... unless you ran any greenfield in the system, then you should run a ground wire as best practice and by code if over 6'.

AC and DC are two different animals when you start talking terminology... which is why I hate talking with electrical engineers and factory reps who's first language wasn't English (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

This post has been edited by nape: Nov 12 2008, 11:30 PM

[nape]

LOL I knew you were a union electrician, you guys all hate romex wire. The city of San Fransisco has some strange rules about romex because the union complained so much. Conduit is the way to go, but nobody is willing to pay for it.

I hate Romex, because it's a pain in the ass to add on to in residential. Also, when that solid 14ga wire gets old/brittle and snaps of right as it comes into the box, you're screwed. Time to chop the walls all the way back to the panel or abandon the outlet. I noticed that last night about the hotel I'm staying in. The swipe cards don't work at two of the outside doors. If the problem means new wire, you have to abandon it since no proprietor is going to chop the walls in a hotel for a minor inconvenience like that.

I don't think Romex has any business in Commercial or Industrial work, period. If you run an extension cord on the wall and affix it with the Romex nails, it's illegal because you've just made a temporary product permanent. What makes Romex any better?

No one wants to pay for pipe in new construction because chances are they won't go through an addition or major add-ons while they live there. I can't even imagine doing one with Romex. Good luck pulling new home runs or a sub-panel feed.

People will learn though, especially near cities. The cost of real estate is so high without going 60 miles away that they're going to have no choice but to put on an addition if they want a bigger house. My $.02.

I forgot the 1st commandment of residential re-model work. NEVER BURY A BOX BEHIND ANYTHING! That includes tile, drywall, carpet, wall board, cabinets, etc, etc, etc. I don't want to have to take the tile on your bathroom wall down anymore then you do, so hire people who aren't going to hack it in. Moving the box in the first place is a lot cheaper then tearing down your $5,000 tile wall when your lights don't work.

This post has been edited by nape: Nov 12 2008, 11:49 PM