 3rd Gen vs. 4th Gen, Pros and Cons of each generation. |
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 Dec 6 2007, 05:38 PM
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#1
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Member  Group: Advanced Members Posts: 119 Joined: 22-April 06 From: Beloit, Wisconsin Member No.: 1,167  |
This should be fun.
Your opinions on the pros and cons between the 3rd and 4th gen F-bodies. These are my opinions, and I could be way off with a couple of items. Engines: 4th gen wins this one. Racing groups keep forgetting that the LT1 350's were a option in the later 3rd gen years, but keep forcing the 305s of being the only option for racing. The 4th gens have the 350s as the only V-8 option. Transmissions: 5-speeds; Tremec and the World class T-5's help make it a 3rd gen pro. Dependable enough, weighs less, and since when do you need 6 speeds for road racing. The only time I have actually shifted into fifth is at Road America running a 3.73 gear ratio. 6-speeds; weigh more, more dependable than regular BW 5 spd. Front Suspension: 4th gen hands down. Rear Suspension: Tie, they are the same for both generations. I do use the 4th gen Koni Yellow rear on my 83 Z-28 because I do not have to remove the rear shock to adjust it. Overall Weight: In stock trim I know for sure the 3rd gen has the advantage. I have not seen actual weights for stripped down 4th gens so it may be close. Brakes: Out of the box I would give the 4th gens the advantage. Parts Availability: 4th gen. They are everywhere. Aftermarket parts were really not available for the 3rd gens compared to 1st and 2nd gen cars. It just seems the Aftermarket Companies really never worked hard for the 3rd gens. The 3rd gens are still competing in large numbers and you have to look hard for performance parts. If I had the money...... Ease of maintenance: I give the pro to the 3rd gens. The 4th gen engine compartment is a pain, and the dash is as big as a pain. Overall Looks: The 3rd gen looks sleek and fast. The 4th gen looks like a beast and would grab the competiition and beat or eat it. My favorite 4th gen commercial was the Pontiac Ram Air Trans-Am. Pulls up behind a Ferrari, revs and swallows the Ferrari and sends it out through its tail pipes. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/lmao.gif) I love the looks of the 2000- 2002 RA TA's. They are just plain mean lookin'. Interior: Pro to 4th gen. The interior just seemed more refined compared to the 3rd gen. Your turn. This post has been edited by T.O.Dillinder: Dec 6 2007, 05:40 PM |
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Jun 22 2009, 07:10 PM
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#41
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Advanced Member Group: Advanced Members Posts: 604 Joined: 30-December 03 From: Columbus, OH Member No.: 70 |
QUOTE (trackbird @ Jun 22 2009, 06:02 AM)  I know Axoid has 17x11's on the rear of his 3rd gen... I have 315s on the front now too. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) |
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Jun 22 2009, 07:18 PM
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#42
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FRRAX Owner/Admin Group: Admin Posts: 15,438 Joined: 13-February 04 From: Ohio Member No.: 196 |
QUOTE (axoid @ Jun 22 2009, 03:10 PM) QUOTE (trackbird @ Jun 22 2009, 06:02 AM) I know Axoid has 17x11's on the rear of his 3rd gen... I have 315s on the front now too. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) But not on 17x11's... |
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Jun 22 2009, 07:24 PM
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#43
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Collo Rosso Group: Advanced Members Posts: 1,220 Joined: 3-August 05 From: San Antonio, TX Member No.: 839 |
For autocross in ESP, an LT1 4th gen is my fav. Fewer ABS issues, the clutch usually works OK, more gearing options, and way better steering feel.
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Jun 22 2009, 07:57 PM
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#44
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Veteran Member Group: Advanced Members Posts: 3,323 Joined: 30-March 06 From: Detroit Suburbs Member No.: 1,144 |
The EXACT same question was asked here:
http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/index.php?showtopic=10869 Don't feel bad for not searching since this was hard for me to find when I knew it was out there somewhere. |
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Jun 22 2009, 09:13 PM
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#45
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I suck at the auto-x :( Group: Advanced Members Posts: 1,421 Joined: 21-April 05 From: TX Member No.: 727 |
QUOTE (StanIROCZ @ Jun 22 2009, 02:57 PM) The EXACT same question was asked here: http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/index.php?showtopic=10869 Don't feel bad for not searching since this was hard for me to find when I knew it was out there somewhere. Damn, I spent 20 mins looking for that thread but gave up. |
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Jun 22 2009, 09:16 PM
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#46
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FRRAX Owner/Admin Group: Admin Posts: 15,438 Joined: 13-February 04 From: Ohio Member No.: 196 |
I was thinking about that other thread, but I was lazy...
Thanks Stan! Merged. |
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Jun 23 2009, 12:02 AM
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#47
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Member Group: Advanced Members Posts: 244 Joined: 27-January 04 Member No.: 158 |
I have 315's on 17x11's all the way around my 89 TA. Now the do stick out beyond the wheel well but I have adequate turn radius for autox. I by the way like the 3rd gen for reasons already posted especialy overall looks and that masive 4th gen dash. I also agree that the combo to have is an LSX 3rd gen. I would stick with the lighter t5 though. They seem to hold up fine when not drag racing.
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Jun 23 2009, 09:54 PM
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#48
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FRRAX Owner/Admin Group: Admin Posts: 15,438 Joined: 13-February 04 From: Ohio Member No.: 196 |
I don't think you could make a T5 live behind an LSx (even if you could bolt it up) while driving it as you'd drive an LSx'd third gen. "Poof", nothing but transmission dust...
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Jun 23 2009, 09:58 PM
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#49
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Mullet club chairman Group: Advanced Members Posts: 786 Joined: 25-March 06 From: South Bend IN Member No.: 1,135 |
QUOTE (firehawkclone @ Dec 6 2007, 08:32 PM) One more thing......PCM's 4th gen is much easier to reprogram. You sure about that? I dropped $300 at Moates.net and I can now tune and datalog any OBDI GM car there is..... |
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Jun 23 2009, 10:01 PM
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#50
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FRRAX Owner/Admin Group: Admin Posts: 15,438 Joined: 13-February 04 From: Ohio Member No.: 196 |
QUOTE (1meanZ @ Jun 23 2009, 05:58 PM) QUOTE (firehawkclone @ Dec 6 2007, 08:32 PM) One more thing......PCM's 4th gen is much easier to reprogram. You sure about that? I dropped $300 at Moates.net and I can now tune and datalog any OBDI GM car there is..... I have the osterich and all that good stuff, and I haven't bothered to learn to tune the 3rd gens. My solution is likely to involve Motec or similar (or a carb...bwhahahahahahahahaha). I do hate the ECM's in these cars. |
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Jun 23 2009, 10:25 PM
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#51
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CMCer Group: Moderators Posts: 2,932 Joined: 12-February 04 From: the sticks near VIR Member No.: 194 |
QUOTE (trackbird @ Jun 23 2009, 04:54 PM) I don't think you could make a T5 live behind an LSx (even if you could bolt it up) while driving it as you'd drive an LSx'd third gen. "Poof", nothing but transmission dust... Word! The T5 could not live more than a few race weekends with my knarly 305 powered CMC car! |
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Jun 23 2009, 10:32 PM
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#52
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Mullet club chairman Group: Advanced Members Posts: 786 Joined: 25-March 06 From: South Bend IN Member No.: 1,135 |
QUOTE (trackbird @ Jun 23 2009, 06:01 PM) I do hate the ECM's in these cars. Of course you do, the Ostrich is NOT the best setup. If you had this, you wouldn't mind it at all. I enjoy tuning. http://www.moates.net/product_info.php?cPa...;products_id=54 |
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Jun 23 2009, 10:39 PM
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#53
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Advanced Member Group: Advanced Members Posts: 604 Joined: 30-December 03 From: Columbus, OH Member No.: 70 |
My T5 has survived for a year behind a Firehawk motor, which is as strong or stronger then a stock LS1.
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Jun 24 2009, 12:43 AM
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#54
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Veteran Member Group: Advanced Members Posts: 2,511 Joined: 14-November 04 From: Homer Glen, IL Member No.: 540 |
QUOTE (1meanZ @ Jun 23 2009, 05:32 PM) QUOTE (trackbird @ Jun 23 2009, 06:01 PM) I do hate the ECM's in these cars. Of course you do, the Ostrich is NOT the best setup. If you had this, you wouldn't mind it at all. I enjoy tuning. http://www.moates.net/product_info.php?cPa...;products_id=54 I had that setup and I still hated the EFI. TPI sucks and everything else is a band aid. I put a $65 Performer RPM intake and a $300 Holley 600DP and made 50RWHP more and now I don't have to worry about 20-25yr old modules and wiring either. QUOTE (axoid @ Jun 23 2009, 05:39 PM) My T5 has survived for a year behind a Firehawk motor, which is as strong or stronger then a stock LS1. Are you doing many track days? I'm not trying to get into a "road race vs. auto-x" dick swinging contest, but a weekend on the track is probably a year or more of autocross duty. That's not even mentioning the extra heat in running it that hard for that long. If AI could run dog-ring gearboxes, I'd probably have a dog ring T5. Dog rings would get rid of a lot of synchro issues and the straight cut gears get rid of the gear weakness, then you're only dealing with heat and case flex. |
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Jun 24 2009, 12:52 AM
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#55
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Veteran Member Group: Advanced Members Posts: 3,323 Joined: 30-March 06 From: Detroit Suburbs Member No.: 1,144 |
QUOTE (nape @ Jun 23 2009, 08:43 PM) I had that setup and I still hated the EFI. TPI sucks and everything else is a band aid. I put a $65 Performer RPM intake and a $300 Holley 600DP and made 50RWHP more and now I don't have to worry about 20-25yr old modules and wiring either. Part of your problem was you had a bad Autoprom. It was the early version that had some issues. After I bought it from you I traded it for a new one from Craig. But I agree, it still takes a lot of effort and patience to tune. I had many 'issues' before I could even get to the point of doing some meaningful tuning. Some of that I brought upon myself by being the only person in the world with a Jerico and a TPI, but there was some other stuff that was out of my control. DIY prom on thirdgen.org is your friend. It is fun when you make a change and it 'works' (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) This post has been edited by StanIROCZ: Jun 24 2009, 12:53 AM |
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Jun 24 2009, 01:38 AM
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#56
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Experienced Member Group: Advanced Members Posts: 2,290 Joined: 4-May 04 From: Kenvil, NJ Member No.: 331 |
How do you tell the difference between the new and old Autoproms? I always have issues with mine, something goes haywire and I have to unplug the ECU to reset it. There was also an instance where the engine would stall briefly, but 'restart' just by momentum of the car.
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Jun 24 2009, 01:55 AM
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#57
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Advanced Member Group: Advanced Members Posts: 604 Joined: 30-December 03 From: Columbus, OH Member No.: 70 |
QUOTE (nape @ Jun 23 2009, 06:43 PM) Are you doing many track days? I'm not trying to get into a "road race vs. auto-x" dick swinging contest, but a weekend on the track is probably a year or more of autocross duty. That's not even mentioning the extra heat in running it that hard for that long. My T5 hasn't seen any track time since the 350 got installed last year (persistent oil leak on the engine), but it has seen track time behind the pervious 305. I can see that all the shifting would be a different type of stress on a transmission than what autocross causes, but most of tracking and road racing doesn't launch from a dead stop as autocross does, even if it isn't as hard as a drag race start. I've always believed that it is hard shocks that break transmissions. I wouldn't think that there would be anything preventing putting an oil cooler on the T5. Ether way, my trans has 105+ K miles on it, 25+K under my ownership. I'm sure some day it will blow, I'll just fix it and throw it back in again. |
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Jun 24 2009, 02:05 AM
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#58
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Mullet club chairman Group: Advanced Members Posts: 786 Joined: 25-March 06 From: South Bend IN Member No.: 1,135 |
I must have one of the later ones because the only issue I've had is getting it to simultaneously emulate and datalog. Otherwise I've not had any issues. Tuning takes time, and you have to understand what you're doing. If you are impatient and in a rush, your tune will reflect that. Anything worthwhile takes time, tuning is no different. For those of us that dual purpose our cars, EFI is very much worth it.
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Jun 24 2009, 02:08 AM
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#59
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Grumpy Group: Advanced Members Posts: 2,722 Joined: 1-January 04 From: Bakersfield CA Member No.: 81 |
Every chassis has its problems that you can go around/fix! Some are easier nowdays than in the past, and some take longer to do... but thats ok to some. It also depends on what chassis you started this little adventure where all on here!
I still think a LS 5.3 powered 3rd gen AI car would be hard to beat! To some it may not! Atleast its all GM! .02 |
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