Don't worry about Evo's Sam!! Options

[trackbird]

i feel that it is the responsibility of manufacturers to build cars that can handle the job that they were built for...

the EVO is a performance car.. it should be built to handle high performance


i don't understand why you guys are so willing to bend over... if your work truck roasted a ring gear while pulling a heavy load, you would definately take it to the dealer and get it warrantied

I don't think it's a willingness to bend over. I think it is based in the ability to accept responsibility for your actions.

If I dump the clutch at 6000 rpm and the clutch explodes, I expect that I'll be buying a new clutch. If I am running laps on a road course and melt down the rear axle, I will be buying an axle. I don't expect the dealer to cover extreme use. If autocrossing melts down a power steering pump, I'll buy a pump. If I break it, I bought it.

Let me put it this way.

If you sell me a clutch and I install it (new in the box, but sitting on your shelf until the manufacturers warranty is "over"), head to the autocross and it comes apart during a run. Should I call you and tell you I want my money back from you for the clutch? Would you give it to me?

That is the difference. You wouldn't likely "bend over" and give me my money back. Would you?

As for a truck. If I was pulling a rated load, I'd take it in. If I was pulling tree stumps out of the ground or running a truck pull, I'd probably not take it in. The difference is that trucks are "load rated" and if I am within that load and it fails they can fix it. In this case we have a "hard number" to denote abuse. Cars requre you to stick to "reasonable and prudent" and everyone has a different definition of that.

[trackbird]

Wow, there were 5 posts while I was typing that last one.... This is growing quickly.

[jraskell]

I can just as easily do a 6000 rpm launch on DOT tires at a stop light or in a parking lot like in an autocross.

Do a 6000 rpm launch right in front of your dealers service garage, then pull in to have them replace the toasted clutch under warranty. What kind of response would you expect?

[trackbird]

I'm a fence sitter about a track day, if your keeping the rev's up for 20 min sessions then the internals are probably getting really hot and outside there normal environment. But it's still in the designed operating range so I don't know if I would take that in for warranty or not.

The oil would be what is outside it's normal range at that point and it would be the most likely thing to cause a failure (short of just shearing a rod bolt, or something).

[Barney]

GM walked away from my C5 the first year because it was an SCCA T1 car. I got 1 transmission and it was over. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) It is a mostly stock class... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

They also stopped the warrenty on my 01 Tahoe. The transmission blew and they wouldn't replace it! Said something about it being a supercharged 6.0 Liter making 568 ft lbs of torque and 516 hp. For some reason the enigine computer had been tuned aswell. I was shocked! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[trackbird]

GM walked away from my C5 the first year because it was an SCCA T1 car. I got 1 transmission and it was over. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) It is a mostly stock class... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

They also stopped the warrenty on my 01 Tahoe. The transmission blew and they wouldn't replace it! Said something about it being a supercharged 6.0 Liter making 568 ft lbs of torque and 516 hp. For some reason the enigine computer had been tuned aswell. I was shocked! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Where do you park your truck. Do you think that if I left my car there, the "horsepower gnomes" would pay it a visit? I could handle being "shocked" like that.

(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

[Barney]

I left it in Ohio at Mallett cars for a year. After several sacks of cash it came home that way. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

[mitchntx]

So Kevin, are you independently wealthy or a male prostitute?

(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Barney]

Dealer... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

You know I made 1 million dollars racing, Because I started with 2. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

[pknowles]

Do a 6000 rpm launch right in front of your dealers service garage, then pull in to have them replace the toasted clutch under warranty. What kind of response would you expect?

I agree that doing stuff like that is very hard on the car, but my point was where do you draw the line, is 5000 rpm to much, 4000, 3000, 2000, maybe you have to slip the clutch a little to get the rev's below idle and then fully engauge the trans. What is abusive? Some cars can take it and are designed for it some are not, why can't I expect the car to take it? If we had never seen ANY problems with clutch's would you say it is OK to launch the car like that? Most people who know anything will say don't do that it's hard on the clutch, but if the maker of the car doesn't say what is abusive like "clutch releases over 4000 rpm is considered abusive to the drivetrain" then at any whim they can viod anything. They could viod your paint warranty saying sunlight is abusive and break's down paint.

Ever seen the option descriptions on Camaro's? I remember a friend of mine looking at a 98 or 2000 options manual (he had a 98 Camaro and sold it for a 2000 Camaro SS) before the power steering cooler was standard and it said something about recommended for gymkana events under the cooler option. I'm pretty sure they didn't mean gymnastic's gymkana, but autocross. I just can't see my car doing better on the parallel bars with a cooler. That's why I tend to be a little more liberal about taking autocross related stuff in for warranty with in reason. Luckly I havn't needed to (and I'm crossing my finger's now).

Edit: Can't spell

[trackbird]

I left it in Ohio at Mallett cars for a year.  After several sacks of cash it came home that way.  (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

Could you tell me where to source said sacks of cash? I'll be glad to pick a few up.

(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[mitchntx]

Dealer... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

What else do you need to know?

(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif) (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[LT4Firehawk]

The folks at the Chevy dealership where I had all my work done on my 01 Z06 knew I took it to track days, BUT they are also pretty easy going as well. I have heard plenty of stories (true or not I don't know) over on CorvetteForum and Z06Vette.com about GM voiding warranties because people were at the dragstrip. I countered this by placing a piece of paper over my vin in the windshield. Of course, this also prevented thieves from writing down the VIN and getting a spare key made at a crooked dealer too (that happened to a Z06 owner in Dallas). Anyway, I don't have to worry about that crap with the Firehawk as it is out of warranty. However, we took my wife's RSX-S into the dealer when the engine blew up at the track, but that was definitely a manufacturer's defect (engine blew after one lap, no missed shifts, not taken past redline). My view, even if I'm at the track, as long as I didn't do something stupid (like miss a shift) and I think it's truly a manufacturer's defect, then I'm taking it in for warranty. When I buy a sports car, part of the reason I'm buying it is because it should be able to handle track days.

[ESPCamaro]

My opinion.

Don't sell a high performance vehicle that you are not confident will survive a high performance enviroment.

And to think that the EVO (especially the RS and MR versions) and the STI are ANYTHING but high performance vehicles that ARE marketed to those interested in a high performance vehicle is insane.


Racing is racing. But with a proper maintenence schedule their is no reason why a car would need anything considered substantial warranty claims work because of autoxing it.


Karens 961LE has well over 200,000 miles and a TON of autoxing.

[prockbp]

I think it is based in the ability to accept responsibility for your actions.

it's not only about customers being responsible.. manufacturers need to take responsibility as well


cars are luxuries.. not neccessities...

if i buy a luxury product, i expect it will do the job that the manufacturer tells me it will do.. otherwise, i'm definately going to want my money back

[98_1LE]

I think what you guys are missing is that "designed for", "intended for", "built for", "made for", etc. hold no real legal meaning against "this warranty will be void if the car is used for ______". If it is spelled out in writing when you bought the car, that’s what you agreed to. Just because a car is "built to" race, does not mean that the manufacturer has to warranty anything on that car if you violated the contract. Regardless of what may seem obvious from our myopic perspective, a Z06 may be "built for" racing, but GM does not put that in writing.

Usually if you take personal responsibility for things, there isn't a problem. If you broke it, fix it. If it was really defective, and I don't mean "they should have known I was going to put slicks on this and do a 6K clutch drop", then talk to the service adviser. Usually if you are honest, and they don't feel like you are trying to get over on them, they will work with you. I think I could get my dealer to replace the power window motor or battery if I took it in with the numbers and race tires on the car, but I bet they would choke on a transmission rebuild or broken 10-bolt.

Don't get me wrong. Years ago I stuck GM hard when I had my '97 Z28. They paid for two T-56 rebuilds (first rebuild was hosed from the first day) and a shattered 10-bolt, all broken on nitrous (which was cleanly removed before being taken in). The T-56 was rebuilt under an aftermarket warranty after that. Damn drag racing...

[bruecksteve]

So in other words, don't buy any high performance vehicle and use it as such, is that what I hear??

I don't pay the big bucks to buy a performance vehicle only to have the manufacture tell me they're not going to warranty my car if I autocross. Why even buy one then???? Why not just get a used one???

Read an attorney's opinion...

"Here is my perspective as an attorney and Evo owner (those who have been trashing attorneys thus far should feel to skip to the next post):

This is a warranty issue which means it's a contract dispute, an area attorneys know something about.

As the antimated debate on this post demonstrates, there is a wide range of opinon on what constitutes "racing".

Although the Mitsu warranty book (which I have read several times) says the warranty does not cover damage from racing, it never defines what the highly debatable term "racing"encompasses.

The rule for construing contracts is that the drafter bears the burden of showing what its terms mean and, ambiguities are construed against it: if the terms are unclear, that's the drafter's problem, not the buyer's. Here Mitsu's attorneys had total control of the warranty language, our input as buyers was zero: take it or leave it bub.

There is nothing in the warranty book about timed events voiding the warranty. Trying to add language to that effect, after the contract is signed and the car delivered is like the dealer sending you a letter two weeks after you bought the car saying he's just raised the purchase price $10K. Too bad Mitsu, you made the deal, you live with it.

My insurance coverage with State Farm defines racing. It says racing does NOT include auto-x or track days. Thus damage from that type of activity is protected by the insurance ( and I have the $3K check to prove it). I would argue that the insurance industry definition of racing is relevant in interpreting the term as used here.

There are no courtroom remedies here, our warranty specifies arbitration as the dispute resolution process.

Even if you do race your car, only that damage caused by racing is excluded, per the warranty. So, if the paint fades, that is still covered, even for the hardcore SCCA T-1 racers, duking it out with Vipers evey weekend.


See you at the track."

[Formula WS6]

what was that comment about timed events void warranty then? i know i read that. it sucks but if it says timed events void warranty them suck it up cause you were told so. it doesnt matter if the car can or should handle it. it says what will void the warranty and you didnt listen or read the notice.

[00 Trans Ram]

I saw this a few days ago, and thought it was just WRONG then too!  I mean, anyone who has ever driven a typical Solo 2 course knows that the stresses endured there are no more than on the common street, when driven hard. 

I used to think that until I watched a BMW snap a front spindle "right off the car" in the middle of a corner at an autocross. Then there was the Mustang with a rod hanging out of the block. I personally broke a trans mount in my 2000 GTI VR6 which caused the dealer to rebuild the trans (they didn't figure out it was a mount) over 3 weeks time. Then, the gearbox wasn't right when it came back and I waited until the mass air meter died (2k out of warranty) to take it back. They took 2 more weeks to fix 5th gear and simply reset my check engine light. They finally fixed the gearbox (that was never broken) and another dealer fixed the mass air meter (and that car was gone soon after). Also, I have seen cornering loads while autocrossing that allowed the flex in my rims to allow them to contact the front brake calipers in my F-body. I'd love to say that autocross is like a daily commute, but so far, that has not been my experience. I don't think 1G+ on race compound tires is exactly "driving to work".

I think the fact that they are searching for results online is a little "slimy", but if it looks like abuse and they call it abuse, bring your visa card. I'm not saying I completely agree with their tactics, but I think calling autocross and "hard street driving" the same thing is incorrect, based on my personal experience.

Consider if I broke a driveline part from "brake hop" at an autocross. I've never seen brake hop on street tires, it seems to be a race tire only problem (for me anyway). If brake hop snapped a clutch (or other driveline part), I'd think that is not GM's problem.

I'm not really trying to take the side of Corporate America here, but there is a reason we call autocross racing (though some don't think it is "real racing", it seems that it truly is racing). If I hit the strip, dump the clutch at 6 grand and break an axle, was I racing? If I had the stock tires on it, I may feel better about saying "that's the same as street use", but is it? Drag strip use is racing/abuse. That is why forums are full of "I just broke 3rd gear again" posts. If you drive it like you are trying to break it, don't be suprised when you do.

If someone really wants to believe that all the stuff we do to increase grip above factory levels and the resulting use of that extra grip is "just like driving a stock car on the street", you are even less of a realist than I am.

Just my thoughts.

[/end rant]

I see that I should have qualified what I said a bit more. Yes, since I've got race rubber and suspension work, I would not expect a dealer to cover a broken control arm or rear-end. Those kind of things can be shown, in a logical progression of mechanical stress, to be under greater loads than what one would normally find on the street. However, if I lost reverse or 4th gear in my tranny, I'd be a bit upset if the dealer refused to cover it because my "increased traction caused more wear on the parts". I don't often lauch in these gears. But, if I lose first, even while driving home from the track on street tires, I'm going to assume that 99% of the wear was done on the track.

But, there are many things that I've done with a car on the "street" that are much harder on pieces-parts than anything I encounter on the course. Consider these examples, before I ever raced, from when I had my 95 3.4L Camaro with an auto:
1) 30mph J-turns
2) slamming from N to D at 5500RPM
3) yanking e-brake at 80mph and sending the car into a slide
4) driving across cow fields and 15-foot high levees at about 60mph
5) getting the car up to 50mph, then cutting across muddy, rutted field when the road to my house was flooded out
6) selling the car w 117,000 miles; changed oil at 3000 and 10,000 miles - yup, only twice
7) leaving t-tops off during a hurricane (had 5 inches of water in floor)

All of the various mechanical and electrical work I had done under warranty were because of these "street" related problems.

Basically, I think that you and I are making the same point (as I agree with what you said!), but from different directions.

[trackbird]

Basically, I think that you and I are making the same point (as I agree with what you said!), but from different directions.

It would seem so.