Fluid temps Options

[JimMueller]

RD offers either a tranny or an oil cooler, but not both on the same unit.

...bumper covers get droopy with age, and the bottom is not well supported

Tell me about it!

I spoke with Anthony at LGM again, and he clarified the previous information given by someone else. They still have the SuperCool radiators in storage, @$795 with the built-in oil cooler. The block adapter & line kit is an additional $450. He seems to think it's no more risky than having a new vehicle which has the trans coolers in the radiator (like the new Vette's). He said that the oil pressure is almost always higher than the water pressure, so if there was a failure oil would be added to the coolant, unless maybe you were idling and then you'd have to see the oil pressure drop.

So they're less expensive for the actual radiator, in stock, and apparently the same units they used on their World Challenge Camaro's? Is there any reason not to go with the SuperCooler? Since I'll already be in the area, is there such a thing as an aftermarket condenser which would make the A/C work even better?

I found this old thread on Tech, isn't 140* too cool?
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/road-racing/...l-radiator.html

This post has been edited by JimMueller: Apr 22 2011, 10:18 PM

[JimMueller]

I forgot to mention there seems to be a conflict in opinion on cooling solution between Dennis @ Ron Davis & Anthony @ LGM. When asked for the recommended coolant solution for their radiators, Dennis says it is OK to use green coolant, but said pure distilled water works better with a lubricant/anticorrosive additive. He said that although coolant raises the boiling point, that's not necessarily beneficial.

Anthony at LGM said race teams would prefer to use coolant on the track if they were allowed to do so because it works better, but they do not use coolant due to track rules. He said he's not had a problem with DexCool and it's fine to use.

I found a couple of thread which talk about the chemistry... but my lab partner got me through chemistry LOL
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem03/chem03987.htm
http://www.fordmuscleforums.com/all-ford-t...ter-better.html

How is raising the boiling point beneficial to a motor?

[Blainefab]

RD offers either a tranny or an oil cooler, but not both on the same unit.

...bumper covers get droopy with age, and the bottom is not well supported

Tell me about it!

I spoke with Anthony at LGM again, and he clarified the previous information given by someone else. They still have the SuperCool radiators in storage, @$795 with the built-in oil cooler. The block adapter & line kit is an additional $450. He seems to think it's no more risky than having a new vehicle which has the trans coolers in the radiator (like the new Vette's). He said that the oil pressure is almost always higher than the water pressure, so if there was a failure oil would be added to the coolant, unless maybe you were idling and then you'd have to see the oil pressure drop.

So they're less expensive for the actual radiator, in stock, and apparently the same units they used on their World Challenge Camaro's? Is there any reason not to go with the SuperCooler? Since I'll already be in the area, is there such a thing as an aftermarket condenser which would make the A/C work even better?

I found this old thread on Tech, isn't 140* too cool?
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/road-racing/...l-radiator.html

Is the LGM radiator plug and play with your OEM AC condenser and fans? I could get an AFCO radiator with integral oil cooler to your door for about $400, but it would require fab to install. With either the LGM or RD solution you are paying a premium up front to eliminate the fab work. This is probably a good value if it is truly plug n play, but if your car ends up in a fab shop anyway - not so much.

Will the block and line kit work with your headers and motor? That link is Pre-LS3 old, I'm pretty sure you need an adapter that comes off the filter pad. If that $450 includes the filter pad adapter and a remote filter mount and bracket that will fit your motor in your engine bay and the premade -AN10 lines that tie them all together with the cooler then that is a good deal. Caution tho - buying race parts for a street car can be a crap shoot - we don't know what EXACTLY is in your engine bay.

Yes, 140deg is too cool. Yes, controlling engine temps with a piece of cardboard in front of the radiator is a PITA, btdt. For a mostly track car, it works kinda, if you remember to pull the cardboard before your first session. For a mostly street car it would suck, so I recommend budgeting for an oil thermostat: add $200+ with hose ends http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/product...Oil_Thermostats

Also, esp if the radiator cooling system is operating well, you can use a higher temp coolant thermostat to warm the system up faster, and keep it warmer under lightly loaded conditions.

This post has been edited by Blainefab: Apr 23 2011, 08:26 PM

[Blainefab]

I forgot to mention there seems to be a conflict in opinion on cooling solution

How is raising the boiling point beneficial to a motor?

I think/hope that they all agree not to mix the yellow with green. I had a local customers car in that had a LS6 swapped into a LS1 WS6 - it had green coolant in it and a huge amount of brown sludge in the radiator and recirc tank and had been running hot. The orange and green, when mixed, combine to form a sludge that clogs the bottoms of the rad/tank and presumably the heater core and engine block. The sludge will inhibit thermal transfer.

All the coolant in a system is not at the temp that the gauge indicates - that is only one spot in the system. Other areas are hotter, others cooler. A boiling fluid loses most of its thermal transfer capacity, so if any part of the system starts boiling it will tend to raise the temp until more parts are boiling, and the resulting pressure rise pops the cap. The boiling point of a fluid is higher at higher pressure, so when the cap pops and lowers the system pressure, all of a sudden the whole mess starts boiling and you're parked.

So our goal is to prevent boiling from starting: the chemistry of coolant additives + water improves thermal transfer on a micro level, and the radiator pressure cap raises the boiling point of the entire system. Racing systems typically use a 20+ psi cap to operate the system at a higher pressure than a street car.

With a leak in the system, the pressure is lower, ergo the boiling point is lower, and you are operating closer to the point of thermal runaway.

This post has been edited by Blainefab: Apr 23 2011, 08:21 PM

[FASTFATBOY]

Go to a GM dealer and buy the sealing tablets, you crush them up and pour them in, works pretty good.

[JimMueller]

Alan - LGM claims their radiator is completely plug'n'play with the other OEM parts with just some minor trimming of the upper radiator mount. It includes the heater & level fittings. I'm pretty sure Anthony said the $450 kit includes everything needed to attach the radiator to the oil pan. The radiator has 1/2" NPT fittings and they use -10AN on the adapter. I want to ask them if their kit includes an oil thermostat... if not, it might be less expensive to use the Improved Racing adapter earlier in the thread.

I've previously been told the outside dimensions/design of the LS1/LS6/LS3 shotblocks are the same, so if that's true I would just need to worry about making it fit with other items LGM can't see (headers, harnesses, etc.)

The guy who mentioned the 140* replied to me in a PM. I have the LS2 water pump & a 160* thermostat:

---
that was becuase at the time I was running the meziere electric H2O pump at the same time along with the SLP fan switch. If I put the fan on "hi" and the electric pump running like it was at a sustianed 3750rpm it would cool like it was no ones buisiness. the problem i ran into was that as soon as I ran sustained RPM over 3750 temp would climb way high because the pump couldnt keep up.

If you run a stock pump with the LG radiator, you will be golden. The pump will match cooling ability of the radiator. But when you cant move enough water at high RPM, it doesnt matter how much radiator you have. There in, lies the problem with electric pumps. Low RPM (street driving) they are great. You start really spinning the motor for more than 10 seconds, you got issues.

I did use their block adapter. It worked great on the LS6. I have zero experience with the LS3 motor so I cant comment on it.

When the car was still being street driven I used antifreeze with a little water wetter. When it went dedicated race car I was using distilled water
---

So I'm inferring that you recommend using a Dexcool/distilled water mix unless otherwise required on the track? While I have seen water temps in the 240's, it hasn't blown the cap. Maybe 5 years ago I blew a head gasket on the interstate and it all came out the overflow cap.

A couple more threads in the past from Mitch & Glenn:
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/generation-i...-installed.html
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/generation-i...experience.html

This post has been edited by JimMueller: Apr 24 2011, 01:10 PM

[Blainefab]

I have no preference green vs orange for a street car, as long as they don't get mixed. For race cars I use distilled water and Water Wetter. For HPDE you should be OK using antifreeze on track - OK with NASA, FWIW.

The LG radiator looks like it will work for you.

Is there room with your headers for the Mocal pan mounted thermostat? In the pic of the AR headers it looks like no.

If the Mocal piece does work, you don't need the $450 LGM kit - you just need 2 lengths of -10AN hose of the proper length and termination. A local race shop can make them up for you.

If the Mocal piece does not work, IMO your best choice is a remote filter and thermostat like the one I linked - pushing the oil filter lower with a filter pad adapter may make it the lowest point on the car, and vulnerable to damage. I like using a real, manly sized oil filter anyway.

I would run a 170deg thermostat, at least.

This post has been edited by Blainefab: Apr 29 2011, 07:42 AM

[JimMueller]

Mitch sent me links to some old photos of the LGM radiator install. It looks like at a minimum one needs to cut off the left and right sides of the upper radiator mount and re-use the bolt holes for brackets. Mitch indicated that at that time a thermostat wasn't included.

(IMG:http://www.lawmotorsports.net/mw/stills/LG/rad01.jpg)
(IMG:http://www.lawmotorsports.net/mw/stills/LG/rad02.jpg)
(IMG:http://www.lawmotorsports.net/mw/stills/LG/rad03.jpg)
(IMG:http://www.lawmotorsports.net/mw/stills/LG/rad04.jpg)
(IMG:http://www.lawmotorsports.net/mw/stills/LG/rad05.jpg)
(IMG:http://www.lawmotorsports.net/mw/stills/LG/rad06.jpg)

Since Improved Racing is local to me, I may ask the owner if he can meet me at a lift with one of the Mocal block adapters, and we can directly see if it'll fit without me having to buy and possibly return it. They don't have a shop nor do they install their products. I won't use a sandwich adapter and risk breaking off the filter.

I always felt that local shops didn't truly know what they were recommending with the 160* thermostat. The reasoning was always "get the coolant flowing through the radiator as soon as possible". Another shop, since out of business, recommended a higher temp closer to the OEM stat for fuel economy and burning any water residue out. Tuners don't seem to have a common theory on where to have each fan turn on/off either.

Hard to say if the Canton remote filter adapter works, the 90* rotation may offer the needed flexibility. Where are you placing the remote filter?

This post has been edited by JimMueller: Apr 25 2011, 12:23 AM

[Blainefab]

Looks like it fits fine with the AC condenser. You'll want to seal up all those gaps in the corners.

If you replace the heater hoses, prepare for a reaming, or skin grafting if you do it yourself. The last few I've done I just used heater hose from the pump to the firewall, zip tied up to a STB to keep it away from the header. The OEM metal sections are swaged to the rubber, and all of them are about to fail in the next few years. EVERY one of the LT1 cars I've seen has some leaks at those swages. The metal part under the shock tower can't be removed with the engine in place with out a sawzall.

Canton block adapter:

(IMG:http://www.blainefabrication.com/projects/2010_04_02/IMG_3391.JPG)

remote oil filter:

(IMG:http://www.blainefabrication.com/projects/2010_04_02/IMG_3395.JPG)

[JimMueller]

Cutting off the edges of the mount like that was a bit more than I thought I would have to do. I don't have the tools to make that look pretty like Mitch. Are the corners you're referring to the gaps between the mount and the upper corners of the radiator? If so, why?

I ordered OEM replacement heater hoses late last week not knowing how to replace them. Not happy about having to pull the motor to replace them.

How do you perform a proper oil change to get the oil out of a remote filter/cooler setup?

[mitchntx]

I don't have the tools to make that look pretty like Mitch.

That was done with a hack saw, sand paper and about an hour of time.

[FASTFATBOY]

Aluminum is soft, there needs to be a rubber seperator wherever it touch's metal. Cheap thin rubber floormat works well.

I have a big Griffin in my LT1 car, made to fit with a/c condenser, you check with them?

[JimMueller]

Aluminum is soft, there needs to be a rubber seperator wherever it touch's metal. Cheap thin rubber floormat works well.

I have a big Griffin in my LT1 car, made to fit with a/c condenser, you check with them?

I didn't call them before, but I did lookup the part number and listed it in post #33. I just spoke with Benji and he said their HP ratings are to the wheels, and they are custom built, so 1-2 week lead time. So similar lead time to Ron Davis, but less money ($625 vs. $770). He didn't have specifics on what is modified to make it work.

I spoke with Bobby @ LGM and he said you just disconnect the bottom AN line on the block adapter to drain the oil from the cooler. He didn't make any mention of needing to seal the corners/ends.

Found some other photos of the Super Cool radiator. I wonder why this doesn't show the side brackets / modified upper radiator mount?
http://xse.com/leres/ss/radiator.html

[Blainefab]

I spoke with Bobby @ LGM and he said you just disconnect the bottom AN line on the block adapter to drain the oil from the cooler. He didn't make any mention of needing to seal the corners/ends.

Found some other photos of the Super Cool radiator. I wonder why this doesn't show the side brackets / modified upper radiator mount?
http://xse.com/leres/ss/radiator.html

Ya, with -AN lines it's easy to pop a couple of them off to fully drain the system. But, consider not draining the cooler and just letting some old oil mix with new. Or, pull the plugs and crank unloaded till you see oil pressure. Or, install an Accusump to precharge the system. Or, figure out a way to gravity fill the cooler from the top. The goal is to not run the motor at zero oil pressure while the cooler and lines are filling.

Seal all gaps around the radiator - the goal is to not allow any air to pass from the front of the car into the engine bay without doing some work along the way - either aero or cooling or both.

The rework of the radiator top cap is shown on that link, he did it differently than Mitch did. That's a pretty good link, except that 250 oil temp is not a problem, it's just fine with a quality synthetic. All the work he did on the external oil cooler was a step backward, IMO.

This post has been edited by Blainefab: May 22 2011, 06:55 AM

[mitchntx]

Hey ... I wuz just a rookie back then ...

[JimMueller]

(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

I spoke with Bobby @ LGM because Anthony was tuning a car. His opinion was to stick with the 160* thermostat in hot climates (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

[JimMueller]

Still haven't bought the new radiator, but the water level hasn't dropped since I topped it off at the dealer that day. RD never called me back to give me the shop number of the place in Virginia which installed it recently. I wanted to get the information direct from the installers mouth on ease of installation. Not sure if LG offers a warranty on their radiator, but I'm not crazy for RD's warranty length of 90 days.

Found this recent thread dealing with the Mocal block adapter:

http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/generation-i...ge-install.html

He couldn't get the 8AN fittings to fit nicely with the block. Could I consider using a different type of fitting/tubing with the Mocal block? Will all of these oil cooler solutions require doing more than a normal oil change to change the oil? I don't want to complicate oil changes.

This post has been edited by JimMueller: May 22 2011, 05:01 AM