So you're a WC fan and HATE Cadillac... Options

[rmackintosh]

I just got back from driving a Cadillac XLR with 600 miles on it.....the owner was my dad's neighbor....and was watching us set up my dad's new motorhome today to go to the races next week....he drives up in the thing I tell him "SWEET RIDE!" and he says...."Hey, go ahead and take it out! Take it for as long as you like!" (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif)

Well my wife is there with my daughter and 12 week old son, so I say to her..."....give the kids to grandma, lets GO!"

That car was NICE.......the interior was WAY nicer than I had thought it would have....very German car quality and finish.....leather seats that were firm and supportive but NOT uncomfortable like some....the suspension....VERY FIRM yet still smooth and luxury like...not great tires on it, but still a GREAT compromise for sport/luxury....the motor....Northstar....was peppy, more than I expect from a Caddy, but not Vette like either....

All in all a SWEET car! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Now if I could ONLY find $80,000 lying around..... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

[94bird]

Hey, I did the piston and rings for that engine and the FWD version while I was at Federal-Mogul. Also did one of the proof of concept versions for the 4.2L supercharged N* (over 400 HP) that may be coming out in the STS soon.

Do you think $80K is the right price for the XLR? It seems high to me for what you get. We were discussing this car about a week ago at work. Heck, for the same price you can get a new Viper. Different target markets obviously, but I think in the $60K range would have been a better target for Cadillac for the XLR.

Cadillac (CTS, STS) is definitely one of our competitors for our new car that will be introduced very soon now. Unless we hit a hiccup before launch we're going to wipe the floor with 'em. With all the trips I'm making to Mexico this year we better not hit any hiccups. I doubt you'll see any of our cars in the World Challenge though. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

[rmackintosh]

Hey, I did the piston and rings for that engine and the FWD version while I was at Federal-Mogul. Also did one of the proof of concept versions for the 4.2L supercharged N* (over 400 HP) that may be coming out in the STS soon.

Do you think $80K is the right price for the XLR? It seems high to me for what you get. We were discussing this car about a week ago at work. Heck, for the same price you can get a new Viper. Different target markets obviously, but I think in the $60K range would have been a better target for Cadillac for the XLR.

Cadillac (CTS, STS) is definitely one of our competitors for our new car that will be introduced very soon now. Unless we hit a hiccup before launch we're going to wipe the floor with 'em. With all the trips I'm making to Mexico this year we better not hit any hiccups. I doubt you'll see any of our cars in the World Challenge though. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

Tell you what....I'LD BUY THAT DAMN CAR!!!

(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)

I loved it...only complaint I had was the HUD....hated it....dialed it out of my view...maybe if you get used to it.....

As for price......I think they are going for the little Mercedes hot rod $80,000 thingy....don't like Mercedes, so I don't know the name of it....although that IS one Mercedes I would "allow" in my garage! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Yeah, the price is kinda high I think...but I don't know all the technology in it off the top of my head. I think it would NOT embarrass itself against the Mercedes though.....in fact PERSONALLY, I'ld go for the Caddy over the Mercy! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) Don't think saying it is NOT what you could get for the same price in a Viper is even close to fair.....WAY DIFFERENT CUSTOMERS and MARKETS. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

Don't think $60,000 is gonna work, cause they have other offerings in that range that the XLR is supposed to "be better than"....so the $76,000 base is probably not far off looking at it that way....

I am actually one who LIKES (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif) the new Caddy's for the most part--I own one (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif) ....I know, I know..... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) ....I also like the new Magnum and other new Dodge products too...again two different markets for two different folks....room for both I am sure!

(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

[94bird]

Which Caddy do you own?

Yeh, I know a comparison to a Viper is a completely unfair one, but $80K for a Cadillac? Heck, this N* engine is just too much like what's in the lower market Caddys to help make it exclusive enough to justify such a higher price.

I'm thinking you mean this Mercedes as the competition to the XLR? http://www.mbusa.com/brand/container.jsp?/...odelCode=SL500R . I say more power to Caddy if they want to truly compete with Mercedes. Goodness knows Chrysler won't anymore. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

However, surely you have to like AMG when they have such a cool web site intro page? http://www.mercedes-benz.com/omb/amg/index_start.htm . I see SRT beginning to follow AMG's model in becoming a tuner car organization. Start with a basic Chrysler and do a Tuner Transformation. Kind of like the CTS-V concept also. It shortens the lead time and cost dramatically. Now, give me a tuner transformation of the XLR with a little over 400 HP for $80K and we're in business.

[rmackintosh]

A couple of years ago, when the dot com thing was hot out here....my wife had some SWEET stock plans that allowed us to purchase a SWEET BMW 5 series for cash.....turned out to be a SUPER LEMON of a car....did NOTHING to bolster my already low opinion of OVERPRICED German cars....ie....Mercedes/BigMoneyWaste...sold that P.O.S. and bought a Escalade BEFORE all the rap stars had them....put some 20 inch BBS's on it and now all my friends call me rap names as a joke! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

I rarely drive the thing, but when I do...I LOVE IT.....just as nice as the BMW and its AMERICAN! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Like I said the Northstar is a downer..but it IS A CADDY...not a Vette, so I wasn't shocked or dissappointed. I hear they are looking to put a 400+ motor in it much like the "base" C6 that will outperform a current Z06....YEAH BABY!

...but alas....unless the dot com boom comes back, or I win the lotto.....no more luxury cars for me for a while... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

[94bird]

The 400+ HP engine is likely the 4.2L supercharged N* that AutoWeek is now talking about going in the STS. When we were first told about it by GM the target was the XLR, but maybe things have changed. Dunno.

The M5 has some issues alright. I hear there's a note in the owner's manual that says it is typical for a high performance engine to use about 1 quart of oil per 1000 miles. They even had a "special" oil made that was 5W50 to help with their oil consumption issues. It's something like $8 a quart and the sump holds about 7 qts I believe. Not completely sure on all the details, but I've heard of many dissatisfied M5 owners. Now the M3 OTOH, appears to be a gem of a car.

[rmackintosh]

The M5 has some issues alright. I hear there's a note in the owner's manual that says it is typical for a high performance engine to use about 1 quart of oil per 1000 miles. They even had a "special" oil made that was 5W50 to help with their oil consumption issues. It's something like $8 a quart and the sump holds about 7 qts I believe. Not completely sure on all the details, but I've heard of many dissatisfied M5 owners. Now the M3 OTOH, appears to be a gem of a car.

...dunno.....all I know is we had the BMW for 2 years.....had it a week and it was down 1 1/2 cylinders....took it in and they had it for a MONTH! I called and they had NO F'ING clue what was wrong! I WAS SUGGESTING THINGS TO THE SERVICE MANAGER!!!! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif) (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif) (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif)

I almost got arrested I was so verbally abusive to that dealer....the #1 dealer in the country by the way... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) ...

They fixed it by "calling the engineers in Germany" and "rebuilding the engine" (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

....2 years later my wife was out of town....so I thought "hey, I'll drive the nice car for once..." got in it and it was running down 1 1/2 cylinder...called her and she say...." I was afraid to tell you...you had a heart attack last time!" (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) So I go to A DIFFERENT dealer...begin to explain the issue to them, the guy cuts me off and says "don't worry, we will fix it...." I go "uh huh" and leave.....4 hours later they call and say it is done...I try and explain that NO WAY could it be fixed....I go in....CAR RUNS LIKE A DREAM, IT HAS NEVER RUN MORE SMOOTH, MORE POWER, ETC.....I ask the guy what the hell they did.....

He says: "Replaced the cam sensor...$12 part"

AFTER they SCRAPED me off the ceiling.....I said [MAJOR ANGER and HOSTILITY] "WHY THE HELL COULDN"T THEY DIAGNOSE THIS 2 YEARS AGO, AND WTF WAS UP WITH REBUILDING THE ENGINE..." [/MAJOR ANGER and HOSTILITY] To which he replies:

"You haven't owned a BMW before, have you Mr. Mackintosh? These cars are highly advanced and technical.....things like this go wrong all the time and are common...."

FUCKIN' CAR WAS TRADED IN FOR THE CADDY THE VERY NEXT WEEKEND!

I will never buy a BMW again....don't care if they design and build THE BEST car EVER!

(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/mad.gif) (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/mad.gif) (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

[sgarnett]

Heck, for the same price you can get a new Viper. Different target markets obviously, but I think in the $60K range would have been a better target for Cadillac for the XLR.

That's exactly how I ended up with the Z28 the last time I was car shopping. Every car that I liked (leg and shoulder room are high on the list) cost more than the Z28. Part of my definition of a "practical" car is that it has to cost less than the car I REALLY want.

I just can't see spending more than the cost of a Z06 or Viper and not ending up with Z06 or Viper (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Formula WS6]

"You haven't owned a BMW before, have you Mr. Mackintosh? These cars are highly advanced and technical.....things like this go wrong all the time and are common...."

VTEC owners tell themselves the same thing when they try to compensate for having their highly modded car get spanked by an old school outdated pushrod designed engine.

[94bird]

VTEC owners tell themselves the same thing when they try to compensate for having their highly modded car get spanked by an old school outdated pushrod designed engine.

Be careful what you say. All the pushrod engines are headed for variable cam timing to meet future emissions laws. Honda's just ahead of the game.

It is an interesting philosophy some of the OEs have. In the US, technology is only used when the government regulations mandate it. In Europe and Japan technology is used as a selling point. The US way is cheaper by far and thus we don't have salesmen saying things like the BMW guy did to Randy, but eventually we always have to use that technology that was put into mass production first in Europe or Japan. When we do it's usually a steep learning curve to catch up. Which way is right in the end?

[mitchntx]

Be careful what you say. All the pushrod engines are headed for variable cam timing to meet future emissions laws. Honda's just ahead of the game.

Remember when you were a kid and your mom made you eat brussel sprouts?

I saved them to the end ... the very end.

[94bird]

Ah yes, but if you mixed the brussel sprouts in with some of the good food it was easier to take. If you save it all to the very end you taste all the brussel sprouts.

[rmackintosh]

I am a coneisuer (sp?) of cars....not a "it MUST be U.S. built or I will die" kinda guy....when I was younger, I would buy a new car EVERY 11/2 - 2 years....just saw something better and "HAD to have it"....had EVERYTHING from Honda to Ford and in between....these day, I can't afford that any more with the family and racing and all.....but I play no REAL favorites...i.e. I am a "Chevy guy" but when I needed a MULTI-PURPOSE small v-8 tow vehicle that my wife could daily drive to work....she WOULD NOT go for the Tahoe or whatever...I had been badmouthing Ford for years on principle alone... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) ...and had just recently bashed a friend for buying an Explorer....but I went out and tested them all....the v-8 Explorer (AT THAT TIME) was far and away the best one....so I bought it...had to swallow a lot of pride in the comments I made, but I am ALWAYS one to look objectively when my $$$ are on the line...

THAT said...YOU CAN KEEP THE BMW's OF THE WORLD...I thought they were overpriced cars before I bought them....and after owning one I NOW THINK they are overpriced and UNRELIABLE cars....

Let them design and perfect the technology and use it on RICH people who can AFFORD to fix it every other day when it breaks....uh uh.....I will think twice before going for all the bling bling of that kinda car again....

[Formula WS6]

true, variable timing is a good thing. its been around a long time too. honda just mass marketed it. the point was though that the BMW guy was using a crappy excuse to try and justify a crappy or flawed design. many cars have cam and crank sensors not just high end bimmers. the other point was that new tech isnt always better. look at the ls engines they use old school pushrod design. many companies look down on this as if its crap. OHV is the way they say. thats funny i see a low buck pushrod motor spanking the everliving crap out of technologically advanced motors all the time. and OHV isnt anything new either. yet another thing is that back in 2000 i believe the fbody with LS1 power became a low emissions vehicle. was it ever promoted as such? nope, yet heres honda and the other technologically advanced companies promoting it to the point of putting it on the windows of all the cars. and here is this powerhouse of a car getting great gas milage and doing vurtually the same thing with again old technology.

im just ranting this isnt aimed at anyone. i just find that in the push for new technology the idea that its better gets used a little too often and excused a little too often as well. randys experiences with his 5 series prove that. im all for advances in technology and a cleaner environment even, but just like i will not drive a Geo metro to save the environment, i will not drive a technologically advanced vehicle thats no better than some old school design. maybe thats just me.

oh and caddys rule i love the edgy designs.

[94bird]

im all for advances in technology and a cleaner environment even, but just like i will not drive a Geo metro to save the environment, i will not drive a technologically advanced vehicle thats no better than some old school design. maybe thats just me.

Yep, that's an American attitude that many Europeans and Orientals just wouldn't understand. That's part of what makes us different, and it's a good thing. German car companies in particular will pay exhorbitant amounts for their components just to make sure they have a certain technology they are absolutely certain they need. Many times we show them they didn't really need that technology in the first place and they just don't understand it. AMG and SRT are exchanging a fair amount of data as of late and when we tell them how much we buy our engine components for they are many times truly astounded. Once you break down the features we have on our components (tolerances, materials, etc.) it's pretty easy to understand why they can't buy components for even 3 times what we pay.

However, there are rebels out there. One of the Daimler Chrysler execs came from an AMG background. He was the main person responsible for making sure we got the chance to build our new high output pushrod engine that I've been working on. When some of the DCX people wanted some higher technology items to be put on this engine he asked one question, "Will it make more power with that?" If the answer was no, it didn't go on the engine. I admire that guy, but because of his attitude he's not still working for Daimler Chrysler. I hope he returns.

No particular approach is right for all consumers and that's why some people buy Hondas and others buy GM. I'm just glad we have the choice. Long live cheap gas! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

[Formula WS6]

your right mike im glad we have choices life would be dull without them. bean counters and the jones of this world run everything nowadays it seems. i don't like the jones and the bean counters have no heart. the 60s seemed way cooler.

[35th_Anniversary...]

im all for advances in technology and a cleaner environment even, but just like i will not drive a Geo metro to save the environment, i will not drive a technologically advanced vehicle thats no better than some old school design. maybe thats just me.

My SS got 29 mpg this weekend on the highway towing a trailer with a bad/missing wheel bearing.

My daily driver IS a geo metro. Not for that environmental concern crap, but b/c it was $1000 and gets 40+ mpg on the cheap stuff (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) $1000 = 1 set of street tires for the SS. (I also got hit in the metro and the other person's insurance paid me $1150 and I got to keep the car)

It's got one of those overhaed camshaft things in the engine, you have to rev the piss out of it to get it to move anywhere. When I bought it with 70,000 miles on it the piston rings were already fried. (Where Karen's LT1 has 300,000+ miles on it and can still see the crosshatching in the cylinders)

I actually think V-TEC is a good idea, however there is NO substitution for displacement. The other fuel-saving feature coming to mainstream in the near future (I think) is CVT (Continously Variable Transmission). I can't keep up with whether it's dead or alive. It's definately difficult to get to work. Seeing the issues with that challenge firsthand I am all for old-school, dependable, proven designs. Honda stroked their engine in the S2000 and dropped the revs. Sounds like progress to me (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Now if they only knew what a pushrod V8 was......

You'll have to pry my pushrod V8 out of my cold, dead hands (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

[94bird]

Well, there are many substitutes for cubic inches. The easiest one to think of is supercharging. Caddy will use that soon enough with a drop in displacement to 4.2L for their N*. It all goes back to the different strokes for different folks argument. I'm a big fan of turbos and superchargers. Owning that GLH Turbo for about 14 years taught me a lot about just how valuable that boost knob was. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

Before CVTs are a main stay you'll see gasoline direct injection become much more common. That's one of the next big hitters coming down the pike. The good news is it's also a significant power gainer and economy / emissions improver. An estimate of 5% power gain is about right, with more power being enabled from other components once you properly tune the combination. It also works quite well with pushrod engines.

All this talk about pushrod engines in a N* thread. Who would have thought?

[Crazy Canuck]

Some people don't believe me when I tell them how much the car drinks on highway... heck, my SS drinks less gas on highway than my Civic... I thought I would be spending much more in gas when I bought the SS... I was pleasantly surprised.
BTW, drove a CTS-V... and fell in love with it... I think I found a replacement for the Civic when it dies.
Then, I only need to get the Vette and have 2 LS6 and a LS1 in the garage (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
And to think that a few years back, I'd never think of having american cars.
I'm glad I got rid of my 99 Jetta in spring 2000 and 99 Golf as well (bought both at same time and were both piece of crap)... no VW for me ever. Quite anoying when you have to change fuel-tank 3x, the car alarm decides to go off sporadically in the middle of the night, doors would randomly lock, etc. This with new cars all within the 1st year... broke the damn lease contracts.

[trackbird]

I had a 2000 Jetta 1.8 turbo and a 2000 GTI VR6. VW service sucks, they were gone in 2 years. Both of them.