New Sponsor, Please welcome Hoosier Performance Engineering LLC Options

[trackbird]

Please welcome Hoosier Performance Engineering to frrax.com. A background in OEM engineering and a desire for better quality parts for our cars has created our latest supporting vendor. They have some neat stuff coming and I'll let them fill you in on all of the details. I should have website information soon, in the meantime you can reach them through the following email:

Inquiry@HoosierPE.com

Welcome aboard!!!

[mitchntx]

Nice addition ...

[FASTFATBOY]

Welcome aboard.

[HoosierPE]

Thanks Kevin. We are excited to be officially part of the FRRAX family.

A few quick words about myself before I tell you about a few products we are working on. My name is John Fehring and I spent about 14 years working for GM's Delphi division on their semi-active ride control systems, including the MR shock system that is offered on the Corvettes and ZL1 Camaros. (I'd really love to offer that system in the aftermarket, more on that later). The next 14 years I spent with Navistar, which builds the International brand big trucks. They moved the truck engineering operations from Fort Wayne, IN to Chicago and I took that opportunity to do my own thing and started Hoosier Performance Engineering. Besides consulting work in the truck industry, my real focus and passion is the automotive aftermarket go fast parts, particularly for the 4th Gens. Which brings me to the first product we have developed.

II picked up auto-crossing again about 7 years ago and I've been watching the problems with the front hub and bearing assembly. With four 4th gens in our family fleet, we've replaced every bearing in every car and a couple of them have been replaced multiple times. I've seen many attempts at various solutions, but it doesn't seem like anyone has really landed on one that has stayed. Over the last 6 months or so, my partner and I have developed a completely new, billet hub assembly which uses over-sized Timken tapered roller bearings. I've been dying to tell you guys about it, but didn't want to tease anyone until I knew it was going to happen. Well, the prototypes are done, two are on a car accumulating mileage and I'm waiting for the volume quote from the machine shop so I can post the final pricing and start taking orders. Here's some pictures, let me know what you guys think or if we've missed or over looked anything.

Complete hub assembly with ARP studs:
(IMG:https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/1014542_375876139190953_1528206097_o.jpg)
(IMG:https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/976331_375876125857621_1907471607_o.jpg)

Disassembled OEM hub shown with new HPE components:
(IMG:https://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/1008535_375875995857634_207679871_o.jpg)

Side by side comparison. We made it longer to increase the bearing span:
(IMG:https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/1008346_375876005857633_1174373569_o.jpg)

Pin (inverted spindle) with lock washer and retainer nut:
(IMG:https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/1015262_375876245857609_442072466_o.jpg)

Wheel mounting flange and pin. We shrink fit these together for a permanent assembly.
(IMG:https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc1/1008279_375876219190945_1586806985_o.jpg)

All the new parts (excluding the sensor/dust cap):
(IMG:https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/1015189_375876202524280_1186530754_o.jpg)

Partially assembled:
(IMG:https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/1009578_375876292524271_1755253073_o.jpg)

The shrink fit produces a retention force over 3 times greater than a press fit with the same amount of interference. The hub center length was increased to better accommodate spacers and still provide good wheel centering. This should be the last hub assembly any 4th Gen will ever need. Completely rebuildable and preload adjustable. Retains ABS functionality, but we need to reuse the sensor/dust cap off your old beaings until we can find a source/vendor for the sensor cap. Oversized Timken tapered roller bearings, 1.5" ID on big end, 1.25" on small end. A clear zinc coating on pin, flange and housing for corrosion protection.

Looking forward to your comments.

[StanIROCZ]

(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/hail.gif) Very impressive!

I don't own a 4th gen so these questions/comments are just morbid curiosity.

1) The parts look beautifully machined.

2) The extended pilot is a great idea.

3) I'm still pondering the pressed-on (shrink fit) flange to the pin. My first thought was why didn't I think of that? It saves the expense of machining everything out of one piece of billet or tooling a forging. I'm trying to think of a gear box application that would validate such a concept, but everything in a gear box carries torque which this doesn't have to do. One thought I had would be to take what you have and use a selective thickness solid spacer between the bearings which would preload the inner races of the bearings and the flange like a big bolted joint. With the spacers being selective thickness (.001" increment's) the bearing preload can be precisely set and you can torque the nut to an absurdly high value. With that the flange doesn't need to rely solely on the shrink fit because it is now a bolted joint. You would add cost with the solid spacer but you could also remove the nut locking features(nut with bolt holes, machined slot in pin, keyed lock washer, bolts, etc) because the nut torque and Loctite would prevent nut from ever coming loose. PM me if you want more details.

4) is the pin heat treated? The zinc coating hides any evidence. I would think that heat treatment is necessary even with the larger than stock diameter.

5) I'm sure that going to taper roller bearings that are larger than the OE ball bearings will bring the life to infinity. But if you want to get nerdy with this and can give me some dimensions, bearings PN's, and loads I can run bearing life and stress calculations for you pretty easy. (I'm a sick individual that actually likes doing this type of stuff.) PM me if you are interested.

Great job, I'm sure many 4th gen guys will be interested!

[HoosierPE]

Thanks for the feedback, Stan.

Relative to the shrink fit questions, I believe you can transfer torque through a shrink or press-fit assembly if done correctly. The crank pulleys on many engines, like the LS series, are a simple press-fit to drive all the accessories. They only key or dowel them when they run blowers. If you don't need to disassemble the joint, you should be able to make a joint tight enough to be essentially a single piece or permanent joint. On our first sample, we had a radius issue where the spindle head and the hole in the flange had interference and didn't let the head sit flat on the flange. So we thought we would try to press it apart and we did get it apart with about 20,000 lbs on a hydraulic press, way beyond the max side load of our cars. We did consider a inter-bearing solid spacer, or even a crush sleeve like a pinon might use, but figured with the right spindle and flange assembly, it wasn't needed. Plus, we can fine tune the preload with the current setup. There's now way the flange will move on the spindle. If the 4th Gen community really likes these and we get a bunch of orders/volume, we may look into a one piece forging, it just too expensive for the tooling at this point.

The pin/spindle has been case hardened in the two spots where the inner bearing races will rest. We followed the Timken recommendations for case hardness and depth. One reason our parts were late from the shop is that they had to machine extra parts for the heat treat shop to section and check the case depth. The flange has also been case hardened in the shoulder area that the seal runs on. Also required per Timken recommendations for seal life and so that the seal doesn't grove the flange's shoulder. We only wanted the head of the pin zinc coated and just the exterior of the housing. The platting shop did take the time to mask those parts, but we are having them quote the masking. I'd like to keep the zinc out of the internal parts to make sure we don't create any flakes to contaminate.

I may take you up on the bearing life calculation if you can run them as pairs. The only thing we could get free online was for single bearings which makes determining the individual loading a bit difficult. I know they have programs that will run them as pairs, just don't have that access right now. Like you, I am confident that these will be the last bearings anyone has to purchase for their 4th Gen. I'll send you the details.

[trackbird]

Nice looking work. I like the increased bearing span. And...I just bought a 4th gen (and I have the 1991 Corvette in the garage too...I was thinking they are the same bearing pack?).

[JACE323]

That is really impressive. I would definitely be interested in a set of these. Im sure it was already answered, but these appear to be rebuildable. Is that the case?

[Racerdad916]

welcome aboard John!!! Very nice pieces.....

[HoosierPE]

Nice looking work. I like the increased bearing span. And...I just bought a 4th gen (and I have the 1991 Corvette in the garage too...I was thinking they are the same bearing pack?).

All the research I have done to date, says the C4 bearings have the same offset, hub center diameters, obviously the bolt circles and every other dimension seem to match. The only difference appears to be that the 4th Gen F-bodies bearing housing has four tapped mounting holes vs. the un-tapped mounting holes on the C4. I have a friend with a C4 who will be stopping by this week with his car and an old bearing for further investigation. The only issue I think we will have is with bolt head clearance to the larger housing we now have. may need to go with Allen head cap screws or something. I will let the group know what we find.

[HoosierPE]

That is really impressive. I would definitely be interested in a set of these. Im sure it was already answered, but these appear to be rebuildable. Is that the case?

Yes, 100% rebuildable. Uses Timken bearings and seals and have two grooves on the inside of the housing that expose the outer races from either side of the housing so that you can drive them out with a drift. But honestly, the most you may ever have to do with one of these is clean and repack the bearings with grease. They should be the last hub assembly you will ever purchase for your 4th Gen, regardless of your racing application. (Well, maybe excluding some off-roading events. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/burnout.gif)

[Shortcutsleeping]

Welcome aboard!

My fourth gen has wide-5s so I'm not a prospect, but DAMN that is nice work and if I ever have a 4th, I'll use your parts. Hopefully Stan can run the numbers for you. Very nice job!

Costas
cars and such...

[Rampant]

Very interested!

[FASTFATBOY]

SO can you grease them? A Zerk or something to feed it grease? Or one of those little ball deals you stick a needle in?


How are these gonna hold up on a full weight Fbody on a R comp tires? Barber Motorsports Park is a left front killer.

[athornt2]

Thanks for the feedback, Stan.

Relative to the shrink fit questions, I believe you can transfer torque through a shrink or press-fit assembly if done correctly. The crank pulleys on many engines, like the LS series, are a simple press-fit to drive all the accessories. They only key or dowel them when they run blowers. If you don't need to disassemble the joint, you should be able to make a joint tight enough to be essentially a single piece or permanent joint. On our first sample, we had a radius issue where the spindle head and the hole in the flange had interference and didn't let the head sit flat on the flange. So we thought we would try to press it apart and we did get it apart with about 20,000 lbs on a hydraulic press, way beyond the max side load of our cars. We did consider a inter-bearing solid spacer, or even a crush sleeve like a pinon might use, but figured with the right spindle and flange assembly, it wasn't needed. Plus, we can fine tune the preload with the current setup. There's now way the flange will move on the spindle. If the 4th Gen community really likes these and we get a bunch of orders/volume, we may look into a one piece forging, it just too expensive for the tooling at this point.

The pin/spindle has been case hardened in the two spots where the inner bearing races will rest. We followed the Timken recommendations for case hardness and depth. One reason our parts were late from the shop is that they had to machine extra parts for the heat treat shop to section and check the case depth. The flange has also been case hardened in the shoulder area that the seal runs on. Also required per Timken recommendations for seal life and so that the seal doesn't grove the flange's shoulder. We only wanted the head of the pin zinc coated and just the exterior of the housing. The platting shop did take the time to mask those parts, but we are having them quote the masking. I'd like to keep the zinc out of the internal parts to make sure we don't create any flakes to contaminate.

I may take you up on the bearing life calculation if you can run them as pairs. The only thing we could get free online was for single bearings which makes determining the individual loading a bit difficult. I know they have programs that will run them as pairs, just don't have that access right now. Like you, I am confident that these will be the last bearings anyone has to purchase for their 4th Gen. I'll send you the details.

This is awesome! I'm interested in a pair. Let us know when they're available.

[97bird]

i am interested also ... add me to your waiting list. thanks!!!

[SuperMacGuy]

Yes I am interested in a set.
Q- why taper the nose of the housing? Why not leave it the same thickness as the rest of the body? Beefier = stronger in my (non engineer) opinion.
Q- is the spindle nose short enough to fit stock wheels with center caps on properly? I'd like to be able to keep my Firehawk wheels on with caps for DD duty. That's a nicety not necessity.
Thanks for including ABS.

This post has been edited by SuperMacGuy: Jun 20 2013, 04:41 PM

[HoosierPE]

Yes I am interested in a set.
Q- why taper the nose of the housing? Why not leave it the same thickness as the rest of the body? Beefier = stronger in my (non engineer) opinion.
Q- is the spindle nose short enough to fit stock wheels with center caps on properly? I'd like to be able to keep my Firehawk wheels on with caps for DD duty. That's a nicety not necessity.
Thanks for including ABS.

We tapered the housing ends just to remove some unnecessary weight. Those thinner areas are where the seal resides or the sensor cap / dust cap sits. There is no real loading in those areas, therefore not much material is required. The full material thickness begins where the outer bearing races are pressed into the housing. These things are much bigger than the stock parts, and as such they have gained some weight. The stock part with studs weighs 8.3 lbs and the HPE part with the longer ARP studs weighs in at 10.2 lbs, or just under a two pound increase.

Yes, the pilot area of the pin/spindle should fit the OEM style wheels. With four of these cars, we have a bunch of stock 16s, 17s and we run the Corvette Replica 17x11s and they all fit. I was frustrated with the loss of the hub-centric feature when you add a 1/8" or 1/4" to fit the 17x11's, so the longer pilot maintains the hub-centric feature for all the reasonable spacer thicknesses.

[HoosierPE]

SO can you grease them? A Zerk or something to feed it grease? Or one of those little ball deals you stick a needle in?


How are these gonna hold up on a full weight Fbody on a R comp tires? Barber Motorsports Park is a left front killer.

Not sure I would want a grease fitting like a boat trailer hub. We wouldn't have the water intrusions issues of a boat axle (although my youngest son did try to float his '97 TA once... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/banghead.gif) ) If grease were to be added on a regular basis, I would be concerned with over-pressuring the seal and potentially failing the seal or blowing the sensor cap off. These HPE hubs should receive regular inspection, cleaning and repacking every couple of years, just like the front spindle and tapered bearings of the days gone by.

Yes, full ABS functionality.

[79T/A]

Wow I need to start saving my money