When You Think You Want To Post To Corner-cavers Options

[trackbird]

It's sad when the most popular thread on the board, is a thread about another board.... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/thumbup.gif)

There are about 5 people viewing this thread right now.... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)

We need to change the topic of this thread to "CC tech"...... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rotf.gif)

Don't take that as a negative, I was just making an observation that I found funny.

[Crazy Canuck]

my impression is that they're a bunch of snobs with blown heads.
Ironically, I find that good racers will seek humility.
Rather not waste time with jerks... just mho, fwiw.
They don't even give a chance for a newbie... it's bashtime right away (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)
So I'll concentrate in the :drive: while they concentrate on the (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/nutkick.gif)

[ESPCamaro]

my impression of parenting from a CornerCarvers.com member:


child: daddy, what is five times six?

cc.com parent: you stupid bastard, get out of my life.

I have never laughed so hard at something written. And haven't laughed so hard period since I saw Anchorman. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rotf.gif)

[Dewey316]

it's bashtime right away (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

Not always. I post over there, and we were all newbies at one point. If you just slip in, unoticed, there is no bashing. The thing is, everyone notices when they DO bash someone, no one notices the other 10 newbies who they don't bash.

but, at the end of the day, i spend a lot more time at frrax, than i do at C-C.

edit...adding.

ESP, i think it would be something more like this . . .

cc.com parent: Read the f-ing wiki, and do a search, i am sick of answering the same stupid multiplication question, you stupid bastard, get a life. And trumps huffs rod.

[Jon A]

Before I offend too many people, let me say the below is not directed at anyone specific in this thread or on this board--but toward the vast majority of F-Body owners who like to turn corners in general.

[Begin Rant]

Most want to learn, or at least they say they do. While picking up a book or two can work wonders, most are too damn lazy to do it. These days most will learn everything from the internet. Message boards. Most only read a couple specific to their make and model as if it's the only information in existence. I've got news for you, it isn't.

A car is a car. While the techniques used to apply them may differ from car to car, the laws are all the same. In the end, it's four tires on the pavement, nothing more. If you think reading what (many times, clueless) people say about your particular car is all there is to learn about it, you're kidding yourselves.

Frrax.com is wonderful, and I'm so glad it's here. But it has only been here for a few months. Before that, we had the AutoX/RR forums on various F-Body boards. If that's where you spent all your time, yes, you have missed out. While they did get a little better over the last couple of years, overall they still sucked. I did my best to try and make them better, but I was fighting a losing battle. Much too often I got the same frustration with them that the people who started CC.com got with the Mustang boards. I would stop reading and posting for a while. I wouldn't answer the questions I knew the answer to because I had already answered them a million times!!!

Technical discussions regarding suspension design, overall vehicle dynamics, etc? Pathetic (what little there was). No, the signal was drowned out by the noise. Explaining for the bazillionth time that poly/poly LCA's weren't the best idea. Even if they come powdercoated yellow. Where it's "mean" to tell somebody he is wrong. Even if he is.

So, for all of you who won't "lower yourselves" to reading posts with attitude, I'm happy for you. Maybe if you had spent a tenth of the time you spent on F-Body boards lurking on CC.com, things like what a motion ratio is, what a roll center is, what tire efficiency is, how and why weight transfer happens, etc wouldn't be such foreign concepts to you. Maybe you'd start to understand some of those things in that book you stopped reading because it all went over your head when you hear them explained and examples given in numerous discussions. This is basic stuff, kids. In "other words" you might know your butt from a hole in the ground.

Oh, but they're so mean! That's weak. Really. Just an excuse. I've heard it all before. You guys think you're saying anything new? You sound exactly like the crybabies on the Corral have sounded for years after getting a good tech smackdown. Exactly! But you know what? Many of those same people who said those things, really did want to learn. After learning the difference between their asses and a hole in the ground, they see just how wrong they really were and why they were smacked down in the first place. They become members of CC.com. Eventually, some even have something to contribute. Some even become moderators there! The ones who don't? Well, nobody at CC.com misses them. We don't need 1000 new members a day showing up to tell us 2+2=5.

Just a Mustang site? Go ahead and keep thinking that. Your loss.

And for anybody who has a problem with what I said above, I've got two words for you. Yes, you guessed them. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)


SUCK IT!


[End Rant]

[rmackintosh]

Before I offend too many people, let me say the below is not directed at anyone specific in this thread or on this board--but toward the vast majority of F-Body owners who like to turn corners in general.

[Begin Rant]

Most want to learn, or at least they say they do. While picking up a book or two can work wonders, most are too damn lazy to do it. These days most will learn everything from the internet. Message boards. Most only read a couple specific to their make and model as if it's the only information in existence. I've got news for you, it isn't.

A car is a car. While the techniques used to apply them may differ from car to car, the laws are all the same. In the end, it's four tires on the pavement, nothing more. If you think reading what (many times, clueless) people say about your particular car is all there is to learn about it, you're kidding yourselves.

Frrax.com is wonderful, and I'm so glad it's here. But it has only been here for a few months. Before that, we had the AutoX/RR forums on various F-Body boards. If that's where you spent all your time, yes, you have missed out. While they did get a little better over the last couple of years, overall they still sucked. I did my best to try and make them better, but I was fighting a losing battle. Much too often I got the same frustration with them that the people who started CC.com got with the Mustang boards. I would stop reading and posting for a while. I wouldn't answer the questions I knew the answer to because I had already answered them a million times!!!

Technical discussions regarding suspension design, overall vehicle dynamics, etc? Pathetic (what little there was). No, the signal was drowned out by the noise. Explaining for the bazillionth time that poly/poly LCA's weren't the best idea. Even if they come powdercoated yellow. Where it's "mean" to tell somebody he is wrong. Even if he is.

So, for all of you who won't "lower yourselves" to reading posts with attitude, I'm happy for you. Maybe if you had spent a tenth of the time you spent on F-Body boards lurking on CC.com, things like what a motion ratio is, what a roll center is, what tire efficiency is, how and why weight transfer happens, etc wouldn't be such foreign concepts to you. Maybe you'd start to understand some of those things in that book you stopped reading because it all went over your head when you hear them explained and examples given in numerous discussions. This is basic stuff, kids. In "other words" you might know your butt from a hole in the ground.

Oh, but they're so mean! That's weak. Really. Just an excuse. I've heard it all before. You guys think you're saying anything new? You sound exactly like the crybabies on the Corral have sounded for years after getting a good tech smackdown. Exactly! But you know what? Many of those same people who said those things, really did want to learn. After learning the difference between their asses and a hole in the ground, they see just how wrong they really were and why they were smacked down in the first place. They become members of CC.com. Eventually, some even have something to contribute. Some even become moderators there! The ones who don't? Well, nobody at CC.com misses them. We don't need 1000 new members a day showing up to tell us 2+2=5.

Just a Mustang site? Go ahead and keep thinking that. Your loss.

And for anybody who has a problem with what I said above, I've got two words for you. Yes, you guessed them. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)


SUCK IT!


[End Rant]

WOW Jon.....don't quite know what to say to that......well, actually I do, but I will tone down the attitude for ya (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

A few points.

1. NOT all of us are engineers. It is NICE that analytical types have a place to go that fits your/their needs. Some of us are just out to make our cars the best WE can, and drive the hell out of them. And us DRIVERS have an opinion/experience/insight that can be useful as well. I have seen some of the "experts" lap times on that site, and I would be a winner in that group......can't read it ALL in a book my friend. I may not be able to explain through calculus roll centers, weight transfers, etc.....but guess what.....with the LITTLE knowledge I DO have I can ask the right questions and get a professional to set my car up to work pretty damn well.
2. LAZY....don't know about you bud, but lazy is NOT IN MY FREAKIN VOCABULARY! My wife and I BOTH work our asses off to support our family and manage to raise two kids the BEST THAT WE CAN! F-body owners like me, work 30 hours a day just to get the kids to school and home again, and manage to give them some quality time. If I had the time of day to pick up and study all the things I SHOULD know "to know my butt from a hole in the ground"....I SURE AS HELL WOULDN'T BE READING THAT STUFF....I would be doing something I enjoy like taking my kids to a ballgame, or hell, just READING FOR PLEASURE....which I haven't done since God knows when. If I can save myself 5 MINUTES by picking the brain of someone who has "done it before me" I will be all over that. If I need to go to a suspension shop and get the thing dialed in to a baseline so I can go out and play with it, I HAVE TO DO THIS....there isn't enough time in the day to spend on this hobby....cause, at the end of the day, that is what we are talking about here.....a hobby THAT ALREADY takes up ENTIRELY TOO MUCH TIME compared to the time my family deserves!
3. FRRAX is NOT perfect....and believe it or not neither is CC.com. It is a COMMUNITY of people who are "trying to learn"......and meet each other and learn in a CIVIL environment.....IS THAT TOO FUCKING MUCH TO ASK?????? Granted some of us are "too lazy" to do it YOUR WAY....some for my family reasons above, some for various other reasons....CANNOT devote countless hours to studying how to engineer a car from the ground up! I paid GM to do that for me, and I pay other companies to design and build systems that will work to improve that car. I am SMART ENOUGH to know I am "LAZY", and need others to assist me in picking systems that work well, and together to make me faster than I otherwise would be.
4. And this is just me here...if answering the same shit over and over gets to you so much.....don't bother! (I am sure there are guys cursing my name now, but WTF?) I myself skip over the "poly on poly" shit all the time.....but I don't go into the thread and call the newbie an ASSCLOWN and to GET A FUCKIN LIFE, or he will be banned either! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/dunno.gif) I was raised to be curteous to others......if you don't got nothin' nice to say....don't say it! With the internet....people lose that concept all the time...WORST PART OF THE DAMN THING IMHO...would they act that way to a person's face????? I don't think so.....
5. Crybabies = weak? Probably, but what is JUST AS WEAK are people who don't know how to socialize in a constructive manner.

...don't know if you had a bad day at work or something today.....maybe the slide rule broke or something.....but man, you need to relax and understand the purpose of this site, and others for that matter........

Oh, and it was a REAL high note you ended on there.....might want to consider how that would play talking FACE TO FACE with someone.....

:leaving:

[derf'96SS]

in 8 months this is the first bullshit thread I've read here

[rmackintosh]

in 8 months this is the first bullshit thread I've read here

...not the first, but one of the VERY few....

(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/thumbup.gif)

[bruecksteve]

WOW!!!! Live on the east coast and look at what you miss while you're sleeping!!!

I'm sorta with Randy here.

I understand that people get tired of answering the same questions over and over. Message forums are a great way to get information but not always the easy way to find it. But regardless, being rude and demeaning and for that matter, condoning that, is not the attitude most uf us had when we originally got together up here on this site. Like I said, if that's the way they want to be, they can have their site. I don't have time to wade through all the name calling and bickering, I'm trying to find out stuff about my car and maybe help someone else out that might be doing the same. We were all new to this at some point and we all asked stuid questions. More reason for us to take the time and come up with a FAQ section.

And like Randy, I don't have the time to spend (not that I wouldn't like to) devoting my life to understanding roll centers etc. I've read the books (I've had a lot more years to do it than most of you (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/dry.gif) ) and even talked to some of the greats of our sport, but let's face it, the science behind what we do and how it works is still black art and witchcraft. If I go change my roll center will I feel the difference? Maybe, maybe not. If I use a 295 vs 315 will I feel the difference, will I go faster? Maybe, maybe not. The point is, without the major money to test everything we can try, all we can do is ask "stupid" questions and hope we can use our tiny brains and come to some conclusion that will make us go faster and that we can afford.

But there is no reason to be hateful and degrading when responding to a "newbie" and I'm sure the administration of THIS board will not allow that to happen.

We will now return to your regularly scheduled program... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/drink.gif)

[Curmudgeon]

Well I agree with Jon CC.com is a great tech site. Tech is tech, and were I find it does not matter to me. Now when and if I have something to contribute to a forum I try to.

Now if one is objective and reads cc.com and then goes to LS1.com, LS1tech or the Corral one would see that CC.COM is a techie forum.

Now all sites have issues, but sifting though the trash on most forums to find useful tech is not an issue on CC.COM.

Now at times I have asked tech questions on this forum that have gone unanswered they would not on CC.COM.

If I had my wish there would be a tech forum with lots of engineers, race team guys, factory guys and techies that would post technical stuff and answer tech questions that had not been addressed before in that forum. I don’t need to see “what is the best cam” five times in the same day. I don’t need unsupported opinions. CC.COM is the closest forum to this ideal I have found.

By the way Jon I have enjoyed your Camaro related stuff. I have read it all and am still trying to take it all in.

[trackbird]

CC.Com has some great tech. They offer a great depth of information on many topics that are complicated, to say the least. They offer a wealth of valuable information and can be an excellent resource. I read alot and post little on there (I'm still under 100 posts on that board and I've been a member a year or two). If you need information on complicated subjects, they are a good source for it in most cases.

However, love them or hate them, they are not going away. They can go from "0 to attitude" in nothing flat when their rules are broken (light flywheel?). That is a fact of life around there. They've not asked for my opinion of that approach, nor would they car what I had to say about it. So, there is no point in anyone getting worked up about it, it will not change, no matter what we do or say. If you like the tech and want to cruise CC.com, by all means, I suggest you do so (I often do). If you don't like their attitude or the approach they use, I'd suggest avoiding them. There is no right or wrong answer here, it is personal choice. It's a big internet out there, explore.

We have been laying the groundwork for a FAQ section and/or a installation page with explanations. The thought here is that by offering a "course" in whatever it is a person is going to ask about, we can get them "up to speed" and answer most of their questions before they get asked. This is designed to help those who need mechanical guidance and to help reduce repeat questions on the board (not that we won't answer them and not that we have had any). We are going to try to help educate someone new and let them ask about what they have learned. I hope this will prove to be a valuable resource for our current and future members. If anyone has pics and a write up on "how to" do something on an F-body, drop me a line, I'm always open to assistance.

I have a feeling that an arguement about cc.com can run for days and accomplish nothing. Or, we can all agree to disagree (or agree, either one). It's your call.

(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[Jon A]

Randy, just a couple points:

I have seen some of the "experts" lap times on that site, and I would be a winner in that group......can't read it ALL in a book my friend. 

Thanks for reminding me how out of date that page is. Most of the times there are about 3 or 4 years old...before there even was an American Iron. If you want to check laptimes, look at AI/AIX results from around the country like this:

http://www.nasaproracing.com/results.html

http://www.racenasa.com/results_2004.htm

Most of the fastest guys are members of CC.com....

If I had the time of day to pick up and study all the things I SHOULD know "to know my butt from a hole in the ground"....I SURE AS HELL WOULDN'T BE READING THAT STUFF....

Don't even give me the time thing. Remember, I can't even leave the house on weekends being "Mr. Mom." If you have the time to post to this board over a thousand times in 8 months, you certainly have the time to flip to a books glossary and turn to a subject while reading a thread here that you'd like to understand better. You choose not to. And that's fine.

3.  FRRAX is NOT perfect....and believe it or not neither is CC.com.  It is a COMMUNITY of people who are "trying to learn"......

I made it pretty clear I wasn't talking about FRRAX.com but the other boards before this one came into being. If nobody agrees they sucked, then why is everybody here? I have high hopes for this place.

Oh, and it was a REAL high note you ended on there.....might want to consider how that would play talking FACE TO FACE with someone.....

Maybe you wouldn't miss the (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) face to face. Would you like a sticker of the logo? (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

Anyway, everybody is entitled to their own opinion on matters like this. If F-Body people want to call those guys arrogant assholes who waste all their time reading about worthless stuff that's so "complicated" and choose not to do it themselves, that's just fine. But then, many believe F-Bodies simply can't compete in AI or AIX.... Gee, I wonder why? (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

[Curmudgeon]

I also have hi hopes for this forum.

Tech is not easy, one must read and discuss the topic at hand to get the most out of it. I hope this forum can provide good tech.

With poeple like Jon and Trackbird we might get there.

By the way Jon appears to be the only guy that post on going base with tech.

[rmackintosh]

If I had the time of day to pick up and study all the things I SHOULD know "to know my butt from a hole in the ground"....I SURE AS HELL WOULDN'T BE READING THAT STUFF....

Don't even give me the time thing. Remember, I can't even leave the house on weekends being "Mr. Mom." If you have the time to post to this board over a thousand times in 8 months, you certainly have the time to flip to a books glossary and turn to a subject while reading a thread here that you'd like to understand better. You choose not to. And that's fine.

....unfortunately...you are wrong about my time....I am "lucky" enough to sit a computer all day long.... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) ....and I always have a window open in the back ground with "fun stuff" like this site.....once an hour or so, I pop over to it fire off a few lines and pop the window back to the background....keeps me sane... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/thumbup.gif)

I doubt VERY MUCH, my boss would like to see me....feet up on the desk....reading a "How to win" book! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

At home, the puter is on with pages open so I can check them on "bathroom breaks" from the fambly....I AM SURE you know how hard it is to do ANYTHING remotely for yourself, when you are "Mr. Mom"... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

EVEN SO....I probably spend more time on "the car" than 95% of those hear....prepping the damn thing for a race is DAMN TIME CONSUMING to do it right, and THAT is the only way I do things... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Sorry the [begin RANT] [end RANT] feature must have killed the (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) you were conveying... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

I respect your knowledge of the engineering side of a vehicle very much.....my only point was that CAR GUYS ARE CAR GUYS...just because some of us aren't GENIOUSES, doesn't mean we aren't just as serious as others in our passion...everyone approaches this hobby from a different perspective, but WE ALL love the same thing.

Besides, if there were no geniouses out there, how would I be able to improve my car??? I LIVE for you testing my future suspension.... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) ...maybe someday I can repay the favor on my general knowledge on how to build/prep a race car.....PEACE!

(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[beuke23]

I feel the love, I feeel the love! (Kev, we need that eye-blinkin'-love-thingy icon back!).

My take on cc.com is, treat it like going to a lounge full of unioned engineers. There's a bunch of sharp minds there. My own personal experience with engineers is that, they express themselves well. They get to the point, no fluff, no beating around the bush. They hate repeating themselves. If I want to ask a question, I better word it right and know that I've tried every other options.

I'm lucky to work with one of the best audio tech person in the nation that I can rely on. He's not exactly Mr. Nice Guy, though he's a little less fiesty now that he's in his 50's and have 2 kids. The guy is very systematic and concise, and that's how we have to deal with him. Lots of time he'd tell the guys to RTFM (read the f------' manual). He may sound like an arse, but he's actually a cool guy. He's just very efficient and hates wasting time.

And that's my personal take on cc.com, and indirectly Jon A, Sean G, Mike T, (almost sounds like the Beasties!), and the rest of the engineers/technical peoples. Not to say these guys aren't friendly and act above it all! I respect them alot, and feel lucky to have them around. And I feel this way to everyone on this board, too! We have a collection of cool people here.


Oh, as far as frrax.com, I liken it to having BBQ with a bunch of knowledgable car guys, shooting the $hit, having brewskies, and looking at girls every now and then (except Mitch, cos he's waaay too old... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) ).

This post has been edited by beuke23: Jul 31 2004, 12:03 AM

[Jon A]

If I go change my roll center will I feel the difference? Maybe, maybe not.

No maybe about it. You will. Trust me. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

I LIVE for you testing my future suspension....

I'm workin' on it.... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[rmackintosh]

I LIVE for you testing my future suspension....

I'm workin' on it.... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

...THAT is what I am afraid of.... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) ....put the book down and get it IN PRODUCTION damnit....I am gaining on you!

(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/whip.gif)

(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

[trackbird]

I feel the love, I feeel the love! (Kev, we need that eye-blinkin'-love-thingy icon back!).

(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/wub.gif)

That one?

Hell, now I have to find one for :grouphug:

(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/burnout.gif)

[beuke23]

Hehe, you're the man! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/thumbup.gif)

[Jon A]

....put the book down and get it IN PRODUCTION damnit....I am gaining on you!

Well, I too, do have a life, you know! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Anyway, I'll be putting together my birthday present tonight...a welder! Depending upon how long it takes me to remember how to weld, I should have the PHB brackets on shortly. I'll be testing them out the 23rd. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)