Get it together GM Options

[trackbird]

...gotta ask....why keep buying VW when EVERY one has been a headache???  I am a reasonable guy, but when I get screwed....I cross that business/car/person off my list for pretty much eternity... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

Well....

My wife (GF at the time, in 2000) wanted a car. I didn't want a Corolla in the family (I really don't like Japaneese cars, not sure why. Great cars, I just don't want one.) so I took her across the street to the VW dealer. We bought a base 115 hp, 2.0 liter Golf (in 2000). Nice little car.

She got a better job about 4 months later and the 4.52 (deep 4 something) final drive was holding that car to about 22 mpg and she always wanted a silver Jetta. So, we bought a 1.8t jetta for her, I took the golf. The 1.8t got much better mileage and I liked the extra torque/hp. I ran an autocross in the Golf (took 2nd in H stock at my first event on factory rubber) and traded it on a GTI VR6 on Wednesday (2 cars in a week, my salesman loves me).

So, we got through 3 before we really realized there was a trend.

#4. We had traded the Jetta on a Mazda Protege 5 wagon (neat car, needs more power). My wife liked it, but really wanted a GTI (like my old one). One day, she leaves work because she's ill. 1/2 way home, she threw up all over the dash. I ran home from work and found the car parked outside in 90 degree heat with the windows up (Ewwwww). I got everything cleaned up except (I have a strong stomach) what ran down behind the airbag (and turned on the airbag light and had the horn stuck on for a while). The car was clean, but it didn't smell so good. So, we added many air freshners and traded it for a new GTI (like she wanted) in hopes that this one will be better. So far, the window is the only thing that's been an issue. That is how we got to #4.

So, basically, I'm a moron. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/nutkick.gif)

And, if you ever get sick and are going to be ill, aim for the passengers side floormat. It's much easier to clean up.

There is a shop in Virginia that works on VW (independent). Their motto:

"Volkswagon, love the car, hate the company".

[TOO Z MAXX]

I just bought a new truck a few months ago and I went with Dodge, so far it has been a real good truck. 21,000 miles and not 1 problem. The only thing I would buy from GM is a Vette, GTO, or an SSR.
I do love my 98 SS and has been bullet proof so far. I have 61,000 miles on it and its been to the dealer once for a new rearend at 150 miles. They forgot to bolt up the brakes properly at the factory and something broke in the rearend. Considering the hard driving I put my Camaro through I am very happy worth it.

[Crazy Canuck]

they used to be innovative and take risks... they just don't do it anymore.
they need to get their act together and show some inovation.
not just follow the crowd.

[Absolut Speed]

The pension problem (and it's a BIG problem) has been around the news for a few years, but that could be considered more of a symptom than the problem. If GM was selling cars (not just trucks) and doing so successfully without resorting to such costly incentives, then the pension cost would be easier to cover.

It still comes down to generating sales and profit to cover your expenses. Bringing out flops, late entries and inferior designs doesn't cut it.

[Rob Hood]

Have had very few problems with my 99 Z; 59K miles since buying new. If I were to buy a new GM car, it would be a Vette, followed by a GTO. I can't stand any other current car's styling. It makes me think the people who designed the Pontiac Aztek took over the entire Chevy line. It only gets worse; the 2006 Monte Carlo and Impala will get an LS-derived engine (V8) but remain FWD.

The wife is looking at the upcoming Pontiac Solstice / Saturn Sky two seat roadsters coming out in 2006/7(?). May get one of those depending on how she likes it, and if the pricing remains as promised.

[35th_Anniversary...]

Also GM doesn't have a low budget performance car (~20k) that the base Z28 was.

And neither does anyone else, nor will they ever again.

However the void of the f-bodies has pushed alot of those buyers into the vettes.

[Absolut Speed]

The wife is looking at the upcoming Pontiac Solstice / Saturn Sky two seat roadsters coming out in 2006/7(?).

The Saturn Sky is a gorgeous vehicle. Hopefully GM makes these into Miata fighters and not just Sunday cruisers.

[Teutonic Speedra...]

These talks of German cars......you guys ever try to work on them? They suck! I spend a few days a week stopping by my buddies shop or working there. He curses BMW, Audi, & VW all the time. Simple things like fuel filters can take hours to find, let alone replace. Special tools are required for this and that.

My 01 Z28 has a lot of upgrades, has had a hard track life, but hasn't had a trip to the dealer or problem in 4 years/31k miles.

What was GM thinking?

Aztek
SSR
Rainier
etc., etc., etc.

They need to stop trying to make the car they think will create a niche or a boom, and just try and build normal cars that people want.

The only vehicles I would consider from GM now are the C6, GTO, Full size trucks/SUV's. But I'm not sure I'll ever buy a new car again, it seems like a waste of money.

[02midevil]

Just thought I'd add my lil .02. GM is hurting like the other 2 big ones.

GM folded one of its own brands.
GM banked on changing Saturns little cars to midsize, that flopped and Saturn is in trouble. They have pumped some money into Saturn (remember the record setting LSR car) to try to turn it around.

The market today is based on trucks and GM holds a good share of it right now. But with everyone else entering the market there will be less for the rest of the market.

I've done business with some door panel manufacturers for GM and they have such a small margin on profit. Every year the profit is cut more by GM. If they can't produce there are 5-10 others viaing for the same panel sale at GM.

Chances are you will never see anything but the Vette and trucks last in the market. There will probably always be a marketing shine on flip-flopping car styles like the Cav.

[mitchntx]

I took her across the street to the VW dealer. We bought a base 115 hp, 2.0 liter Golf (in 2000). Nice little car.

So, we bought a 1.8t jetta for her, I took the golf.

traded it on a GTI VR6

traded it for a new GTI

"Volkswagon, love the car, hate the company".

I owned a Rabbit deisel and a Rabbit Cabriolet

The German word "farhvergnugen" translates to "piece of shit" in the Queen's english

[Crazy Canuck]

looks like Toyota is taking a lot of market share...
Makes you wounder what they are doing that GM is missing.
quality and finish ?

[Soma07]

These talks of German cars......you guys ever try to work on them? They suck! I spend a few days a week stopping by my buddies shop or working there. He curses BMW, Audi, & VW all the time. Simple things like fuel filters can take hours to find, let alone replace. Special tools are required for this and that.

I don't know about Audi's or VW's but my 328 is much easier to work on than my Trans Am (for the most part). The only "special tools" I needed to change the fuel filter were a 10mm socket and a flathead screwdriver. As far as finding it thats simple. Find the gas tank, find the fuel line coming out of the tank, follow it until you find the filter...

[LT4Firehawk]

The only vehicle GM makes that I would consider buying new right now is the new C6 Z06, and I'm afraid they are going to price it right out of it's market. I'd also consider the new Pontiac/Saturn roadsters that are coming out, but again, I'm very worried that GM will overprice them when they come out. In all honesty though, I think I'm done with buying new cars. Why spend all that money on a new car, when there are so many great deals on awesome used cars.

[Mericet]

As far as GM products is concerned the Cobalt might be good (although I think it is just a reworked Opel Astra?). At least C&D gave it decent reviews thus far. That said, the only new GM's that I would consider now is the Vette (obviously but for the price the Porsche Boxster will be looked at as well) or the GTO. Unfortunately I can not even afford to buy the GTO right now. The Solstice and Sky looks promising, but indications are they will be heavy.

As far as VW's quality: I owned a '86 Jetta with a 1.6l in South Africa. In 3 years I did about 155,000 miles in it. I only replaced general wear items but even at a service interval of 15,000km (about 10,000 miles) it was sometimes serviced every month. Currently my wife drives a 99.5 Jetta VR6 auto. I do not like the driver seat, or the way the gearbox shifts. We had the window problem (like Kevin), I had to replace the MAF (I used one from a 2.0 which is the same sensor in a different housing and saved $150), an oxygen sensor ($250 from the dealer, I found one new in the VW bag for $50), the cupholders broke as has the one glovebox support! Still my wife loves it and it is still going well at just below 90,000 miles.

On the other hand my RS has 180,000+ on the odo. I have only replaced a few maintenance items (waterpump, front rotors, AC condensor) and it actually has better gas mileage than the Jetta (which runs on premium).

[trackbird]

I bitch about my VW's, but I'm dumb enough that I'd consider buying another one. I almost bought an R32 last year, but I'd have had to trade in my Camaro for it (probably the only reason there is not a 157 mph, AWD hatchback in my driveway right now....well, that and the fact that I'm at work right now.... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rotf.gif) ).

[AllZWay]

GM only makes a hand full of vehicles that most people want.

Trucks and the Vette. Outside of that, they have nothing I would be interested in. I would drive a CTSV, but the design is less than appealing to look at.

[trackbird]

I would drive a CTSV, but the design is less than appealing to look at.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks Caddy is turning out ugly cars. I'm not sure I'd even drive one (if it was free, but I'd not buy one).

[WS6WRX]

trackbird, don't buy an Mcoupe w/ out doing some research first, or you can just ask me. My wife traded her WRX for a Z3 3.0 Coupe and I have found alot of info on these little cars. For example, the earlier/lower hp MZ3's have a huge after market and great reliability. The later/higher hp ones have a small after market and some unconfirmed reliability claims. Also all Z3's have a rear subframe weakness that needs to be addressed if the car is going to see any track time or big Hp #'s.

[94bird]

Also GM doesn't have a low budget performance car (~20k) that the base Z28 was.

And neither does anyone else, nor will they ever again.

SRT4. Granted, not exactly the same market, but it's definitely a performance car when you look at the numbers.

BTW, for more reading about the history behind GM's woes, try this: http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0.../A01-120183.htm . There are other links that cover their troubles, also in this article.

Eugenio, Toyota does a lot more right than just having good quality and finish. Their whole product development cycle is completely different, and much more structured than the Big 3. Toyota's whole philosophy is very conservative. They simply do not take risks. Their motto must be "slow and steady wins the race". Fact is, it's working. When I was working for Federal-Mogul a few years ago I flew to Japan a few times working on a Nissan engine program. Every time I'd also go to Toyota and meet with their engineering supervisors. Each time we talked the conversations became a little longer and they started letting me in on a little more information and giving us slightly larger "investigations" so we could prove ourselves to them. Cost was certainly an issue, but they were much more concerned that their suppliers had the right attitude and had the technical "know-how" to meet their standards. Go into GM looking for new business and the general perception is the lowest cost provider wins, regardless of technical ability. If you get the business on the basis of low cost and can't step up to the plate quality or delivery wise, then it's time to sic purchasing and the quality guys on you and beat you into submission. The differences between GM and Toyota are just so huge it's amazing.

[94bird]

Regardless of what many of you seem to think the profit margin for a OE is not very high at all on most of their vehicles (except Escalades and the like  (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )

Mike, I don't disagree with you. My point earlier is that if they can run a $5,000 rebate, the general public will assume there is that much profit in each car and they don't want the manufacturers making $5k on them alone. It's a perception, even if it's wrong. Redneck logic or something like that. People don't believe that companies will sell things under cost, so it must have $5k profit in it, right? (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rant.gif)

I know where you're coming from Kevin. I just wanted to make it absolutely clear that there are many cars out there now being sold for a loss. You'd almost think they believe in the saying, "we may lose a little on each car, but we'll make it up with volume." (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) The reality is however that many times the financial guys seem to justify that it's better to just keep on cranking out the cars and losing a little money on each car than it is to idle plants and still pay the workers (due to union contracts, etc.), get hit with cancellation charges from suppliers, etc. However, Toyota's approach would be to just better predict an accurate sales volume in the first place and plan for less volume. Of course, Toyota doesn't have such a huge workforce in the US that they have to keep busy. The UAW has done an amazing job tying the Big 3's hands behind their back to make sure they can't dynamically change their company quickly in the face of changes in the marketplace.

I guess this subject is a little sore with me because it's my career that's being messed with.

Next thing you know someone will bring up the question of why so many jobs are being outsourced outside the US. I've been learning Spanish using CDs in my car lately because I've given up after so many trips to Mexico. Things aren't changing. I bet in a couple of years I'll have Chinese CDs in my car.