Thinking about a track only car!, maybe! Options

[firehawkclone]

As you know i lost the motor a few weeks ago(a small update) i think i lost a head gasket! I haven't worked on her much becuase i have working my butt off at work for that new motor, but i have removed the nose & hood and the radiator cap. Well looking down in the Rad it's half empty (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/banghead.gif) It didn't dawn on me at the time, but there was steam coming out the oilpan(thought it was the Rad) when i pulled off track. Back on topic...

So the motor is coming out and now would be a good time to remove alot of weight up front. Just the basic's for now like HVAC, smog/egr, and turning her in to a front breather(got to talk to 94bird about this) I know that this take's money to do, but it's not as much as some of the other thing's i need really bad i.e. cage,seat,belt's,shock's,spring's,t2r!

So the PRO's to this

1.It's not a car i need to drive everyday, or at all.
2.I accept the fact i can lose this car on track, and as a backup daliy driver.
3.I understand it take's more $ to build a track car than to buy one.
4.It's crazy, but it's going to be fun to build a track car, with the lack of fund's,tool's, and the skill's needed!
5. I have the wife talked into this (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/thumbup.gif) but at time's(split second) i'm not (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/nutkick.gif)

The CON's

1. NO money!
2. Still owe $ on the car, about $2000
3. Still have no $$$$
4. Am not building car for a race class (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) but will be my track car anyway!

I guess i'm a little old for having(asking for) my hand held while i do this (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rotf.gif)

[tonycook]

Not sure what my input would be worth to you, but why not do it? You'll be without the car for awhile until it is fixed. Weight reduction won't cost much. You might be able to sell some of the stuff from the car. If you're sensible it might be affordable.

I only drive my 98TA at HPDE events. I'm been going long enough that I instruct the newer guys/gals. Instructors get either free or reduced price track time.

[mitchntx]

I've been offered the right seat a couple of times with different run groups and organizations ...
I HATE the right seat ...


Deciding to build a track only car is a LOT different than converting what you have to a track car.

Converting means you have to get over that emotional bond that seems to happen.

Building one means you take someone else's junk and make it happen.
You can also do it as your time and budget allow.

[rmackintosh]

...I will say what I ALWAYS say in these type of threads.....if starting out in Wheel to Wheel racing, it is WAY CHEAPER and WAY EASIER to buy a car than to convert/build your own.....

This from a person who has BUILT TWO of my own race cars and bought ZERO! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif) Experience eh? I CANNOT FATHOM BUILDING MY CAR FOR WHAT I SEE CARS GOING FOR IN SPORTSCAR OR OTHER PLACES!!!! NOT EVEN CLOSE. Kinda like $.50 on the $1 kinda thing....it is SCARY!

If you get a sorted car, you will spend less time working on the car, and MORE time learning to drive....a KEY point....I, on the other hand spent YEARS learning to drive hard, because a) I built my car and was anal about it and spent too much time on it and not enough time driving it and b ) not driving it enough for budget reasons....one race every few months may look good to a budget, but NOT to becoming a better driver..... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

It may seem like...."hey I can throw a few bucks into my car and be racing...." But it IS NOT THAT way....I spent $20,000 on my car for DAY 1 at the track....and it had a STOCK DRIVETRAIN WITH 100,000 MILES and parts that lasted a year before I decided to upgrade them....ie.....wrong choices....money wasted while sorting a new car.....the car I passed because it was not up to my standards asthetics wise would have been $14,000 basically "loosely" race prepped......(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

I say again....buy a BUILT/SORTED car....save yourself some grey hair...

[mitchntx]

Randy, the other side of that coin is trying to figure out what the builder was thinking when he put that pre-built car together.

Re-re-engineering can become more costly.

[firehawkclone]

I made a mistake in not explaining what i was looking to do....this is going to be my track car for HPDE event's, but NOT a racecar. I just don't have the money to buy/build and/or RACE a car!

Anyway Mitch hit the nail on the head, this is MY fun car. So i think i will just do some things to her that will help her survive on track were i live.

So turning her into a front breather i think i can do nice and clean, and upgrading the oil cooler to a setup that is safer than my hose clamp (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif) setup. And (you ready for this) i'll remove the AC condenser and compressor, and just cap the line's going to the dash. I never use the AC anyway in this car.

[y5e06]

.I, on the other hand spent YEARS learning to drive hard, because a) I built my car and was anal about it and spent too much time on it and not enough time driving it and  b ) not driving it enough for budget reasons....one race every few months may look good to a budget, but NOT to becoming a better driver..... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

Heh, my life at this very moment.

If you're going to just make a fun car, I say go for it. building and modifying your own car instead of buying a built one is so much fun (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/2thumbs.gif) (can never have too many red '95 Formulas on the track)
The more I commit to tearing out stuff that will make it totally unusable for street purposes, the more fun it seems.
Having a track only car can be very liberating in a way.
Oh, if you have the engine out and are nixing the AC, then do yourself a favor and cut out the evaporator portion of the box. It will create lots o' room.
I did this when I thought I wanted to retain my heater function.
Actually worked out pretty dang good, just be sure not to cut the box all the way to the wall as you need a path from the blower motor to the ducting. Turns out it wasn't the right thing to do for the intent of my car as I will be pulling it all out within the next month. Heater? We don't need no stinkin heater. oh well, it was still fun....

[94bird]

Just be sure it's what you want before you leap. The mistake I made was starting to convert my Firebird from a street car to a race car just as my son was born. I should have kept it as a fun street car and then would still be driving it instead of selling the body and buying a Camaro to transplant parts onto. More work for me to get what I already had.

I would highly recommend keeping the car street legal as long as you can to give yourself the time to make sure you won't miss driving the Firebird on the street also. My best advice would be to take this course and then when you're sure you want to go road racing sell your Firebird and buy a prepped road race car. You'll be far ahead and it's a WHOLE lot easier to sell a street legal Firebird than a car that has been prepped for a specific racing class.

[rmackintosh]

...EXCELLENT points Morgan and Mike...

If I had a dollar for EVERY time I see someone spend big $$$, jump in and go racing, then have a kid, change jobs, get married, etc. and sell everything for the $.50 on the $1 I mentioned....I could race FREE for the entire year! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

As for WHY build a car....I am like Morgan....I LOVE IT....the process of building the car for me ALMOST is more fun than driving it...I had the skills from years of being around racing as a kid, and the challenge was half the fun! So I understand WHY building a car is so attractive....all I am saying is that it is NOT the SMART way to do it...Hell, I would say the same thing for a dedicated HPDE car...buy some "respectable" beater that I could Dr. Frankenstein on the cheap and keep the nice car I am still making payments on a nice street car....JMHO...

[rmackintosh]

Randy, the other side of that coin is trying to figure out what the builder was thinking when he put that pre-built car together.

Re-re-engineering can become more costly.

Mitch,

I agree that buying a "questionable" car could lead you down the path you are describing. That is why I recommend an INFORMED purchase....buy a car with KNOW history, and research the parts, seller, etc. so you KNOW what condition the car is in...

However, the same could be said for my personally built car...my car is JUST now getting to where I want it to be.....that is unlike my Datsun, where there was an IMENSE knowledge base around here when I built it, and it was close to "THE set up" when I was done....as for the Camaro.....where I could find VERY FEW Camaro's around running and when I did, the advice was spread to the wind...led me to re-engineer a lot the first season and a half.....getting somewhere now though.... :drive:

and I know all about how costly re-engineering is....sometimes I think Jason at UE is trying to kill me....LOL...but so far, I love his set ups!

[mitchntx]

I have already seen a car that was supposedly built by a known racer and had a known history ... it was a head scratcher ...

That "informed" purchase is why I drew out schematics of MY wiring scheme ... so when it comes time to sell, the buyer will know EXACTLY what he's getting. I'm doing the same thing for the hydraulics ...

I have added a transponder and a fan circuit, so I need to update the schematics ...

I am also keeping well documented notes on issues that crop up and what I'm doing to address them ... as much for me as it is for the next owner.

It's a lot of extra "work", but it has already come in handy ....

[rmackintosh]

I have already seen a car that was supposedly built by a known racer and had a known history ... it was a head scratcher ...

That "informed" purchase is why I drew out schematics of MY wiring scheme ... so when it comes time to sell, the buyer will know EXACTLY what he's getting. I'm doing the same thing for the hydraulics ...

I have added a transponder and a fan circuit, so I need to update the schematics ...

I am also keeping well documented notes on issues that crop up and what I'm doing to address them ... as much for me as it is for the next owner.

It's a lot of extra "work", but it has already come in handy ....

I will tell you that I hear you Mitch....I have seen some "winner" cars that were piles of S$#@T! Guess the driver counts for something eh? I was just thinking along the lines that after all that reasearch, you, the prospective buyer, should be able to tell AT LEAST if it has the right parts in it and build quality is reasonable.....hopefully that will get you through the early years....

Looks like you and I are both anal Mitch...I am the same way with my cars...have notes/books on EVERYTHING....when I sold my Datsun, the guy looked at me like I was N.U.T.S. when I gave him all that stuff...(which he promptly ripped out most stuff and threw tons of $$$/parts at it anyway...)....guess I am a "closet" engineer eh? hmmmmm....maybe that is why I just got "promoted" to an engineer position at work with NO previous training....oh no...LOOK OUT!

(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rotf.gif)

[CMC#5]

Just to add some thoughts...
I've seen a lot of guys go out and modify their cars to make them quicker, or more fun, or more reliable for track duty. But they continue down the slippery slope of adiction (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) until they try to race wheel to wheel. The problem then is a lot of what they did is totally useless for the w-t-w racing they want to/can do. The result is a bunch of money and time spent that has to be re-done.

Personally...if I was building a car for HPDE duty, I wouldn't do a single thing that makes it faster (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) I know, it sounds crazy. I'd just make it safe and reliable (in that order). For me anyway, a 1:57 lap at Willow is just as fun as a 1:55 lap. The fun is in hanging the car on its edge....and the slower that edge is, the cheaper it is to get there and the more room you have to recover from your mistakes (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) Big aluminum radiator? Ok. 335 Hoosiers? Nope. See what I mean?

[rmackintosh]

Just to add some thoughts...
I've seen a lot of guys go out and modify their cars to make them quicker, or more fun, or more reliable for track duty. But they continue down the slippery slope of adiction (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) until they try to race wheel to wheel. The problem then is a lot of what they did is totally useless for the w-t-w racing they want to/can do. The result is a bunch of money and time spent that has to be re-done.

Personally...if I was building a car for HPDE duty, I wouldn't do a single thing that makes it faster (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) I know, it sounds crazy. I'd just make it safe and reliable (in that order). For me anyway, a 1:57 lap at Willow is just as fun as a 1:55 lap. The fun is in hanging the car on its edge....and the slower that edge is, the cheaper it is to get there and the more room you have to recover from your mistakes (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) Big aluminum radiator? Ok. 335 Hoosiers? Nope. See what I mean?

...gotta agree with ya there Al!

Good point

[CMC #37]

John, I agree with Al. You don't have to spend a dime on go fast mods for your HPDE car. Just replacing the stock and few aftermarket parts like brake pads and tires that you will need to with HPDE use and that is all you need to do to enjoy the car. YOU are the magic ingredient! As we have learned from AI and AIX- reliability is inversely proportional to mods and $. I would get things reliable and durable so I could spend more money on track time. And get a cage!

I also agree with Randy: As for buying used race cars, as a rookie I insisted on building a car and not buying one for myself as I did not know the racers and who knows how lame they were put together, right? This is a reasonable assumption and usually a really good one outside of racing. How many modded street cars are done well, maintained properly and built with any consideration to safety? Not too many. I learned that race cars that have been in the series for a while and keep showing up and are driven well are worth considering and are not typical of street- mod mistakes. These cars are also usually up on safety because they are regulars and are inspected regularly by the race group.

I am building a 4th gen Firebird, however, if there was a nice race car 4th gen 'Bird available that would work for CMC I would have bought it in a Chevy heartbeat! I am 'Bird nut so this is fun for me. Definitely impractical though.

The buy a used racecar option is a great option for many folks and makes a lot of financial sense. As much as racing makes any financial sense! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rotf.gif)

[firehawkclone]

I have already seen a car that was supposedly built by a known racer and had a known history ... it was a head scratcher ...

That "informed" purchase is why I drew out schematics of MY wiring scheme ... so when it comes time to sell, the buyer will know EXACTLY what he's getting. I'm doing the same thing for the hydraulics ...

I have added a transponder and a fan circuit, so I need to update the schematics ...

I am also keeping well documented notes on issues that crop up and what I'm doing to address them ... as much for me as it is for the next owner.

It's a lot of extra "work", but it has already come in handy ....

I will tell you that I hear you Mitch....I have seen some "winner" cars that were piles of S$#@T! Guess the driver counts for something eh? I was just thinking along the lines that after all that reasearch, you, the prospective buyer, should be able to tell AT LEAST if it has the right parts in it and build quality is reasonable.....hopefully that will get you through the early years....

Looks like you and I are both anal Mitch...I am the same way with my cars...have notes/books on EVERYTHING....when I sold my Datsun, the guy looked at me like I was N.U.T.S. when I gave him all that stuff...(which he promptly ripped out most stuff and threw tons of $$$/parts at it anyway...)....guess I am a "closet" engineer eh? hmmmmm....maybe that is why I just got "promoted" to an engineer position at work with NO previous training....oh no...LOOK OUT!

(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rotf.gif)

Do you guy's remember the tread i started about the rebuildable hub's....it was a GrandAm spec car with a stock PHB (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

The wife and me are not ready to gut the car yet, it's are baby (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/wub.gif)

I will do some weight removel, but it will be easy to bolt back on stuff like, AC condensor/ compressor, washer res, horn's. Maybe the cruise control, and i know i can do the front breather with a airdam cheaper than an Alum Radiator. But i change up on this every hour!

The wife has been eye balling 98/02 WS6's for the last few week's is what she told me today (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) so you never know what might happen!

Thank's guy's & gal's for talking me out of this (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/2thumbs.gif) (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)