[teamDFL]

I am considering the purchase of a dedicated event car to take to HPDEs, Time Trials and Hillclimbs. I will most likely contest a Street Prepared class during the timed events, but have not made a final decision. The value represented by the 4th Gen F-body is attractive. I have yet to uncover a single source buyer's that details perfomance affecting year-over-year changes and options. Is there such a thing? Any links or attempts at putting together a brief one here would be appreciated.

This post has been edited by teamDFL: Nov 21 2005, 01:16 PM

[teamDFL]

Since Street Prepared allows update and backdate, would it be advantageous to run a 1993 transmission coupled to a later rear axle?  Lower gearing in the box and lower gearing in the rear end?  The high top speed potential of the car I have little use for.

You aren't the first to suggest it, but donor trannies can be hard to find. I think Lonnie is buying a car to part out so he can keep the transmission (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) You could buy all 93-spec gears for a 94~97, but that's going to be expensive. The 93 transmission can't be used with a 98+ LS1.

The GTO transmission has the same gears 1~4 as the 93 f-body 2.97 option (I think the overdrives are different), and fits an LS!, but it isn't legal in ESP.

So perhaps then the purchase of a 93 would be a better idea? Seems like the 3.42:1 rear is a common fitment for many years of V8 F-body and I imagine it would not be hard to source one.

Is the gearing all that important? Thus far, I have spent my life with small peaky motors. An LT1 will have 1.2 liters displacement more than my last two cars combined, so I don't want to make the assumption that this is worth pursuing.

[robz71lm7]

Buy a '93 then. It's much, much easier than finding a used '93 tranny. There are two '93 transmissions.

As for B4C's and options in the previous posts mine came with a Bose stereo and a power driver's seat-both of which are now gone. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

[robz71lm7]

'94-'02 F-body T56
2.66
1.78
1.30
1.00
0.75
0.50

'93 (2.73 rear)
3.36
2.07
1.35
1.00
0.80
0.62


'93 (3.23 rear)
2.97
2.07
1.43
1.00
0.80
0.62

[CMC#5]

Given your goals, I would say that any of the LT1s will work great and you should focus on getting the least beat up drivertrain for the money you want to spend. The later model opti is much nicer because it is more reliable and it is cheaper to replace, but even that is not a huge deal. The difference to me would be worth upwards of two times the differential between the optis. In other words, equal cost of cars I'd get a 95, but I'd take a 93 if it were $500 or more cheaper and everything else is identical.

I wouldnt worry too much about the trans gearing. It'll be a long time before the differences in these trannies will equate to a tangible performance difference, and by that point there is no "best" answer...it'll depend on the track.

[CMC #37]

Great advice here! I would grab a Formula for the weight savings if this is a street car.

[Soma07]

So perhaps then the purchase of a 93 would be a better idea? Seems like the 3.42:1 rear is a common fitment for many years of V8 F-body and I imagine it would not be hard to source one.

It won't be hard at all to find a 3.42 rear end as all of the 6 speed cars (except the 93's) came with them. Plus drag racers frequently sell them for next to nothing when they upgrade to a 12bolt or a 9". I bought mine complete (but without brakes) for $200 a few years back.

As far as the different 93 transmission's go the one you want is the M29 (should be listed on the options label in the glovebox). All M29 cars also came with 3.23 gears which are option code GU5 (also listed on the options label). Luckily 99% of the 93's out there have this transmission.

The alternate 93 tranny is the M28 which came with a 2.73 rear end. From what I understand these are very, very rare. I remember seeing the production numbers at one point and fewer than 100 cars were made like this.

Does the 93 gearing make much of a difference? I'm not sure, it does make 5th gear more usable but thats not an issue for autocrossing. JeffM who has a 94 Trans Am w/3.42's has driven my car and I don't think he noticed the difference.

[teamDFL]

Given your goals, I would say that any of the LT1s will work great and you should focus on getting the least beat up drivetrain for the money you want to spend.

At what point is the drivetrain considered beat? I have found locally an LS powered car for ~$5500 with 120,000 miles. I know on some motors, that is next to nothing. How about the LS? Are LTs similar?

[robz71lm7]

5500 for an LS1 with 120K miles? That sounds awfully cheap. The LS1 is better no doubt. It's lighter, easier to work on, more potential with the stock heads, and I'd say a little bit stouter in stock form. For SP it's a toss-up in my opinion-both cars can be made to win. Even if you get out of SP, stock bottom end LT1's with ported stock head castings are commonly putting out over 400 rwhp now. The thing to remember when comparing reliability is a lot the LT1 cars out there have more miles on them than LS1's.

[teamDFL]

http://raleigh.craigslist.org/car/112591931.html
I called, auotmatic trans.

[teamDFL]

I made a quick Excel spreadsheet using a stock LT1 dyno I found online and the different gearing options. I left the rear axle ratio constant at 3.42 even though they don't come that way stock. Each tab represents a different gearbox.

Ideally, the shift point is where the horsepower curve in one gear intersects the other. Unfortunately, this never happens on the LT1 no matter which gearbox is run, as far as I can tell. The engine needs more RPM.

Spreadsheet - right click, save as please

My current car for comparison - right click, save as again please Obviously, I have not formatted the X axis the same as the LT1 version, but you get the idea hopefully.

Let me know if I screwed this up.

This post has been edited by teamDFL: Nov 22 2005, 09:15 PM

[Soma07]

At what point is the drivetrain considered beat? I have found locally an LS powered car for ~$5500 with 120,000 miles. I know on some motors, that is next to nothing. How about the LS? Are LTs similar?

Lets put it this way, I have just over 205k on my LT1 and it still runs awesome. In fact I just did an Evo school this Sunday where I probably put a good 25 runs on it and it never missed a beat.

I had to replace the clutch at ~120k and aside from that and a few waterpumps its been pretty trouble free. The rearend is considered "weak" but as long as you're not drag racing on slicks it will hold up fine.

Also Karen on this board has a 96 Camaro with over 300k and I believe she still runs it regularly too.

[Mojave]

1LE doesn't really matter unless you're going to leave the car stock.  Also be aware that 4th gen B4C's are the SAME as Z28's.  Don't waste your money on any of the SLP/ASC cars.

I believe the B4C's were the only LS1's to come with manual windows/locks. Too bad almost all of them are autos (but look around! there are some 01-02 B4C's with the 6 speed).

Nope. Pimpmaro (our fearless mod) has a 2002 Z28, manual windows, manual locks, no cruise, no defrost, nothing.....

It has a monsoon (factory Z28 option) and AC. It's a hardtop, with cloth seats, etc. If you bought a camaro and checked the box for "Z28" and nothing else, you'd get his car. Not a B4C, not a 1LE. Just STRIPPED. So, I can tell you that they are out there and you don't need a B4C to get one, at least not in 2002.

Oh wow. I didn't know that. I have the window sticker for my 99 Formula, and the only option listed is security system, which includes keyless entry and theft deterant system. The car came with Monsoon, power windows/locks/mirrors, defrost, cruise, power antenna and cloth seats all listed as 'standard.'

I wanted a Camaro, but I found this low option hard top Formula in good shape and I couldnt pass it up.

[teamDFL]

OK, I think I have a decent handle on the differences between models and years, so on to part two. How good an HPDE and Solo I type event car is a fourth gen f-body? Now, I realize that this is a biased group, however, I am not expecting you to put aside you bias, just give an honest appraisal of the overall amount of work and maintenance needed to run one of these cars successfully.

For example, the average Mustang guys loves his car, but when push comes to shove, he will tell you it is a pretty crappy track car as you have to completely rework both ends of the suspension. That makes the car expensive to get ready. Once properly setup, however, the car is very rewarding.

Similarly, Honda guys will tell you that the cars are durable and fun, however if you want power enough to run with the big dogs, you will need major amounts of cash as the lack of displacement means forced induction is a must and the engines simply aren't built for that.

If I could get a few (hopefully more detailed) synopsis of the 4th gen f-body, I would greatly appreciate it. This platform is number one on my list of next cars, I just would rather know what I am getting into.

[trackbird]

You can fix 99% of the "ills" with shocks, springs and sway bars. Really.

Koni's are one of the most popular choices (and what I run). Springs are based on what you want to do. There are a few schools of thought here.

Big bars/small springs
Big bars/huge springs

Both seem to work and people will fight endlessly about them.

Sway bars are typically a 35mm front (solid or hollow) and a 21 solid or 22 hollow rear. Unless you lower your PHB mounts on the axle, then you may up your rear springs and use a 25mm bar.

Throw in a good alignment and brake pads and "go".

The cars work amazingly well off of the show room floor. They are better with sway bars and shocks (and can be quite good with just that). Springs will round out the package nicely.

Unlike the Mustang, these cars do handle well and are easy to make faster. I never figured out why everyone races Fox bodies (and the SN94 and up). They need a complete redesign to do what we do nearly stock. Of course we are a good bit heavier, but the cars make good power and LS1's come with decent brakes (just add race pads).

The LT1's make good power and the LS1's make a bit more (20-60 hp....depending who you ask). More power is available as your budget allows (headers/exhaust, cam, etc).

LT1's brakes are a weak point.

3rd gens are great, but have small brakes and lower power outputs (small block Chevy power makes them cheaper to fix....to a point).

All can run very well.

2001-2002 cars have a better intake and a truck cam (out of a 6.0 liter escalade). They seem to make more torque and similar HP (some claim more hp, but mine was about like the earlier years).

1998-2000 cars have EGR plumbing which makes changing plugs a pain in the rear.

2001 and 2002 get upgraded clutch and hydraulics (Z06 clutch and better hydraulics).

LT1 clutches can be very expensive (just as a warning). (otherwise, you'll need more LT1 info from the LT1 guys. I find them harder to work on, but good cars otherwise).

[Soma07]

Unlike the Mustang, these cars do handle well and are easy to make faster. I never figured out why everyone races Fox bodies (and the SN94 and up). They need a complete redesign to do what we do nearly stock. Of course we are a good bit heavier, but the cars make good power and LS1's come with decent brakes (just add race pads).

Ditto (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) I don't think we're that much heavier though (3400lbs vs. 3200ish). F-bodies are a bit wider/lower which seems to put off some people though.

LT1's brakes are a weak point.

Yes, but fortunately an LS1 brake swap is very cheap and easy.

LT1 clutches can be very expensive

Actually I just think you LS1 guys are spoiled with your cheap Z06 clutches (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I think I paid ~$350 for my "LT4 Clutch" from SLP a few years back and its holding up great. On the plus side LT1 cars have never had the hydraulic problems that seem to plauge the early LS1 cars and the stock LT1 clutch is pretty strong to begin with.

Anyhow suspension wise I think these cars push alot and have too much body roll stock. Fortunately a good alignment, a 35mm front bar, and good shocks will cure 90% of that.

[trackbird]

Ok, I should say that the Centerforce LT1 clutch is $500+ (and probably going up soon). LT1's do not have hydraulic issues, that's very true.

I put a Centerforce in my LS1 car, it's more expensive than the Z06, but I really like it. Since I was doing a flywheel, I threw a new clutch in it.

LS1 brake swap is cheap ($250 or less) and easy (bolts right on). I forgot to mention that.

[GlennCMC70]

my 98 is one of those rare cars. 2 options - Z rated tires and Monsoon radio. its not a 1LE and its a hardtop. it has no fog lights and i had to install the electric hatch release myself (all you need is the button for the dash and the solinoid that bolts to the latch on the hatch, all the wires are pre-run). when it was stock it was arounf 3550 w/ my 200lbs ass. it was kinda light before the cage and subframes, STB, yada, yada, yada........

[teamDFL]

OK, so the second tier track consumables such as

wheel bearings
ball joints
calipers
bushings

and the like are all pretty durable? I found that brakes and tires are a budgetable cost for all cars. It is the second tier stuff that can brake the bank quickly. A car the needs a set of wheel bearings every third event is just a PITA and eventually a financial drain.

Thanks again. A support group like exists here is a big plus.

This post has been edited by teamDFL: Dec 2 2005, 01:05 PM

[trackbird]

Stick to GM wheel bearings (I've heard that the National Bearing version is good as well). You may change one set a year on the front (most get longer than that, but someone here might not). You can order them for about $165 per side (it's a sealed unit with the ABS sensor in it) from team chevrolet (and Sam at Stranoparts.com carries the National or he did when I asked him about them).

Caliper spread (from heat) can be an issue for some (I don't remember the cost on them though). Rotors are not bad (autozone are inexpensive and work for many), I use Brembo OEM rotors ($80-ish as I remember).