Wine and Cheese, Ferarri club comes to N/A, but only for those inside the "snob ri Options

[Foxxtron]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11593310/

Maybe because it's that I'm not rich, but I just don't get what's all wrapped up on what's now mostly a brand name, a style, and all of the conrived statements of how "Ferrari" is something so darn great. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/dry.gif) Their older vehicles were definitely in a highly defined breed, but now, their just a different breed by being not that much better (that's if they are better). I enjoyed Michael Schumacher while he was winning, but the world is much more than just Formula 1, and my go cart from over 20 yrs. ago is engineered much more like a Formula 1 vehicle than some street legal sports car vehicle.

Pardon my harsh analysis, but I'll rest now and wait for those who have something to chip in with.

This post has been edited by Foxxton: Mar 10 2006, 02:42 AM

[steve-d]

Mt Tremblant is a great place. Super skiing. They apparently have (I've not seen it) a great road race course. Does anyone have any first hand knowledge?

BTW, F cars are OK in my book. They do, after all, push the boundaries as to auto engineering and that does filter down to everyone.

Steve

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11593310/

Maybe because it's that I'm not rich, but I just don't get what's all wrapped up on what's now mostly a brand name, a style, and all of the conrived statements of how "Ferrari" is something so darn great. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/dry.gif) Their older vehicles were definitely in a highly defined breed, but now, their just a different breed by being not that much better (that's if they are better). I enjoyed Michael Schumacher while he was winning, but the world is much more than just Formula 1, and my go cart from over 20 yrs. ago is engineered much more like a Formula 1 vehicle than some street legal sports car vehicle.

Pardon my harsh analysis, but I'll rest now and wait for those who have something to chip in with.

[Foxxtron]

Mt Tremblant is a great place. Super skiing. They apparently have (I've not seen it) a great road race course. Does anyone have any first hand knowledge?

BTW, F cars are OK in my book. They do, after all, push the boundaries as to auto engineering and that does filter down to everyone.

Steve

No problem. The place is great (though I haven't been to the road course) however maybe you could try to "get your foot in the door" at the F car club and relay your experience for us Steve. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) As a former owner of one is where I speak about the "exclusive hoopla", it's seems now that it's more down to brand name, than the distinct performer it once was.

I admire Ferraris and they do push the boundaries, but filtering down? (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/huh.gif) The Ultima cars have layed several important design foundations (with exception of carbon fibre monocoque) for certain exotics, one in particular, the McLarenF1. I see some of the cues in the Enzo taken from the McLaren, so I guess it would be safe to say, they aren't necessarily the predecessor for that moment in history, would we? The upcoming 599 GTB is the first "500 series" to finally use an aluminium monocoque (though it roughly weighs only ~3700, roughlly ~300 down from ~4000 of the 575M). I believe however that the "Automanual" sequential gearbox with paddle shifters is a first for a production car, but I could be wrong.

Now for an interesting set of questions (not meant to be answered by anyone in particular or anyone at all, but feel free if you see glaring errors). What's the chicken and the egg? F308/328 concepts borrowed by Acura over to the NSX? NSX ideas of materials then used in F355? What about the Honda V12 that revolutionised the early nineties F1 world to borrow many of it's ideas? Didn't GM's idea of lightweight composite bodies preced the 288 GTO's use? Didn't others devise variable valve timing before ferrari did (though Ferrari's is quite superb compared to other companies)? Didn't Ferrari just recent decide to up the ante with larger displacement? (guess it's time to stop with all of the questions, since I am now losing my hair from all of the head scratching).

BTW, one of the vehicles I did own for almost 3 years was a 1988 328 GTB (not new of course). Exceptional used value with exceptional performance. Sorry to sell the thing, but was in a "bind." Reliability is also something not to be highly synonymous with Ferrari, even by staying within their factory suggested maintenance intervals.

Frankly though, it's a lot of the sillyness that the Ferrari consumer label has become of since Enzo's death that has bothered me most. Not the prices, even though there is definitely no great performance to dollar (then again, that's what designates an exotic), but their stress on an "exclusive ownership" translating into the absolute highest of street legal performance is just what I don't get (Ultima GTR640 got them beat to all hell as far as that's concerned, so far).

One more thing, can't remember whether it was Evo magazine or "euro" Car magazine, however they were in the middle of a long-term test with a 575M (I think) and they broke down in the middle of a low-speed roundabout (YIKES!) (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/gr_eek2.gif) . I would explain more, but I think someone could go down to Barnes and Noble to read the whole thing. In short, the writer of the article mentioned the experience as outrageous.

Interesting eh?

This post has been edited by Foxxton: Mar 10 2006, 04:10 AM

[beuke23]

One more thing, can't remember whether it was Evo magazine or "euro" Car magazine, however they were in the middle of a long-term test with a 575M (I think) and they broke down in the middle of a low-speed roundabout (YIKES!) (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/gr_eek2.gif) . I would explain more, but I think someone could go down to Barnes and Noble to read the whole thing. In short, the writer of the article mentioned the experience as outrageous.

Interesting eh?

It was EVO. The "Inertia switch" had broken (Like in older Fords that I remember, if you got hit from behind or stop short really hard, it'll trigger the switch to stop the fuel pump and power). The switch is 27 GBP, labor was 634 GBP. Then the dealer had to tighten a hose clamp. Labor: 423 GBP...(It was under the intake manifold). It cost him over $2000 for that trip to the dealer.

The Magazine also just took delivery of an Aston Martin V8 vantage. It broke down twice already. In 22 days owned, it was running for 7.

At least they liked the Z06 in that issue...

[BigEnos]

Ferraris, if you could afford one you would and you'd love it. I will have a 550 or 575 some day, just gonna have to wait until my ability to buy matches up with the cost to own.

I have lots of friends with Ferraris and not one of them is a snob. Only one of them bought new, though.

WRT reliability, the cars are very well put together but need lots of maintenance. Problems with most of the used ones can be traced to not being used regularly. If you can work on it yourself you will be way ahead of the game. Parts can be very expensive, but the labor is worse.

Yes, lots of "snobs" buy them, but Ferrari must cater to that crowd because that's what keeps them in business.

[Foxxtron]

Ferraris, if you could afford one you would and you'd love it. I will have a 550 or 575 some day, just gonna have to wait until my ability to buy matches up with the cost to own.

I have lots of friends with Ferraris and not one of them is a snob. Only one of them bought new, though.

WRT reliability, the cars are very well put together but need lots of maintenance. Problems with most of the used ones can be traced to not being used regularly. If you can work on it yourself you will be way ahead of the game. Parts can be very expensive, but the labor is worse.

Yes, lots of "snobs" buy them, but Ferrari must cater to that crowd because that's what keeps them in business.

Precisely, if you noticed, I mentioned that I too owned a 1988 328 GTB for three years, specifically 1999 to 2003 (not quite 4 and only a little more than 3), and the thing was like a dream when it ran and a nightmare when it had to be worked on. I worked on it myself, because even the several dealerships were reluctant to work on the thing (why?, it's acutally much easier than the near current vintage, and I had agreed to a deposit before working on thing, though if they checked my credit, I have a score that is much higher than what they imagined).

Oh, forgot one thing, my uncle owned a 512 BB from 1979 (Canadian, not street legal in US), and I would say that it was ahead of its time, but that too borrowed many cues from the Lambo Miura. Funny that I mention that as well, since Ferruccion Lamborghini decided to start his own company based on the "sour grapes" he encountered with his Ferrari's reliability, however there are rumours that brand name is also beginning to resort to "favourites" and "shunning good people with clean money."

I guess if owning one makes one a snob, then yes I was one too, however it's not the ownership, nor the whole company, it's just the marketing sillyness that has come abound after Enzo's death. The F50 lease, The Enzo sales, the whole "only the customers we choose because they make the name." I think that the price and product speaks for itself, though with cars that will have at least "one less manufactured" will be a lottery to begin with. I will say that as far as a test drive, you know the answer to that one, and I agree with any car as far as that's concerned, but guess what, success! I got to test drive a used 1996 F355 Berlinetta in 2003 and it was a fantastic car, just from my experience as a RR, but I didn't think it was worth the price for my admission. Even I were to drive out with the thing in my name, I can say that it would probably bankrupt me from insurance and maintenance alone. I would get eaten alive on the track by many of it's cheaper contemporaries. Just to let you know, I only have above average earnings, because it was really what I have in savings that got me the test drive. If I were to deplete the savings, then there would certainly be no more open track days for the rest of my life (nor any home for that matter.)

As far as art goes, I think that they are the one's that are really staying "true to the game" by not "reinventing the wheel" and only taking whatever accolades that "come their way." As far as what they mention, they don't believe at all in attempting to revive or retain "retro cues." I think they are one of few companies that can remain like that, because a lot of the US companies are migrating to "glory days, retro style" marketing in order to push more products.

EDIT: the thread should read inside the "snob ring." It was in quotations for rhetoric. I guess that some consider it an inadvertant meaning, however, I guess we could consider ourselves a "snob ring", or maybe a "slob ring."

This post has been edited by Foxxton: Mar 10 2006, 10:41 PM

[Crazy Canuck]

Mt Tremblant is a great track and been there a few times.
The track did change a bit back... but one thing to know is that the track is privately owned by T. Hillfiger
He's quite an ass when it comes to his track... he has even booted ppl from planned events just because he feels like going there for a spin or bring some of his friends along.
My opinion is that his word is not worth much and even less his commitments.
He's a big Ferrari fan and am not surprised about his exclusivity bs.
He only seems to take exotic cars, or whatever seems acceptable for his "image" standard.
It seems like the lowest he is willing to go is have the Porsche club go, and the BMW M3 driving school.
What a snob-prick, imho.
Part of local history.
Racers go elsewhere... there is a closer track to Montreal called Autodrome St-Eustache.

[Foxxtron]

OMG! I was half-ass joking when it came to refering to the article content as another "snob-ring", but geez, really that bad? (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

And if you are referring to who I think you are, is that what people like me get? Especially after purchasing much of his high ticket items over the years? (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

This post has been edited by Foxxton: Mar 11 2006, 04:55 AM

[Crazy Canuck]

OMG! I was half-ass joking when it came to refering to the article content as another "snob-ring", but geez, really that bad? (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

And if you are referring to who I think you are, is that what people like me get? Especially after purchasing much of his high ticket items over the years? (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/huh.gif) that clothing guy... he has a huge Mansion @ Mt-Tremblant.
I don't buy his clothes... what a pure local prick.

[z28tt]

The Corvettes of MA sports car club have a few time trials dates at Mt. Tremblant, and I know they're not exclusive to only corvettes (like the porsche clubs).

[00 Trans Ram]

I think some of the "snobiness" (at least when it comes to true track performance) is a result of the fact that many Ferrari owners know that an average guy, with a mildly modified $20k car will whoop their $100k car's butt on the track! A few Ferrari guys showed up at an open track day last year, and were passed by a few guys in S2000s and even a Civic! They were not pleased. There's another guy that I'm trying to convince to come out in May - he is still wishy-washy about it.

[jensend]

I've had somewhat different experience with the Ferrari people I've met. There are certainly some who see themselves in terms of the success and status involved in acquiring both the means and the car. On the other hand, I've also met several Ferrari owner who were cordial, skilled, and enjoyable people.

Wouldn't make a blanket statement, but I think the deciding factor is how they approach driving. Those who might be called snobbish or aloof rarely seem too genuinely interested in exploring the car's full performance potentail. By contrast, those who are seriously interested in performance driving are able to appreciate perormance and skill regardless of its source or a driver's relative status.

If you ever have the pleasure of meeting Bob Coates and his original one off NART Ferrari, you won't find it hard to see many Ferrari owners/drivers as "car people" just like most you know. Bob's car is an irreplacable car with a storied race history which he tracks regularly with cars of varied values and little or no "history". He is skilled , gracious, and courteous on track. Owners like Bob have as much enthusiasm and affection for their cars and driving as any of us.

In the end, I think it comes down to an individual's basic character. The F-body guy who sneers at sharing the track with Civics and Neons is every bit the snob as the Ferrari owner is who finds sharing the track with M-3s distasteful. Character weakness not the badging makes the snob in my view.