ethanol blended fuel question Options

[rpoz-29]

I'm in the Mid-Atlantic area that is having our gas cut with 10% ethanol. What, if any, effects will this have on my Camaro? I've been told to expect a slight decrease in economy, but will the fuel system have any issues with it? Many years ago, there was a fuel called "Pepco", which was, (I think), 100% ethanol. Being cleaner than petroleum fuel, there were tons of issues with killing fuel filters as it cleaned up the fuel system, as well as causing butyl rubber fuel lines to collapse.

[nape]

We've had 10% ethanol in our in our fuel forever out here in the midwest. I wouldn't worry about it.

[trackbird]

Per the factory manual in my glovebox of my 2002 Z28, the fuel systems were not designed for fuels that contain alcohol. I'm guessing that the rubber lines will eventually deteriorate and need replaced. I expected that anything built in 2000 (or so) would be compatible, but I was wrong.

[Spooner]

Per the factory manual in my glovebox of my 2002 Z28, the fuel systems were not designed for fuels that contain alcohol. I'm guessing that the rubber lines will eventually deteriorate and need replaced. I expected that anything built in 2000 (or so) would be compatible, but I was wrong.

Same story here in the great northeast. We're getting 10 percent ethanol blends phased in in place of MTBE.

But mine (1999 manual) says: "Gasolines containing oxygenates, such as ethers and ethanol, and reformulated gasolines may be available in your area to contribute to clean air. General motors recommends that you use these gasolines, particularly if they comply with specifications described earlier."

(The "earlier," I believe, refers to octane ratings and not using fuel with MMT--methly-something maganese tricarbonyl--added as an octane enhancer.)

But then it says NOTICE: "Your vehicle was not designed for fuel that contains methanol. Don't use it. It can corrode metal parts in your fuel system and also damage plastic and rubber parts. That damage won't be covered under your warranty."

I have no idea what the difference is between methanol and ethanol.

-John

[trackbird]

You're right, I lumped "alcohol" into one group.

[mitchntx]

I have no idea what the difference is between methanol and ethanol.

-John

At first glance, it appears to be an "m" .... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

http://www.drivingethanol.org/aspx/what_is.../mechanics.aspx

Could be fact ... Could be propaganda ... it's the internet ...

[pknowles]

http://www.drivingethanol.org/aspx/what_is.../mechanics.aspx

Could be fact ... Could be propaganda ... it's the internet ...

The last paragraph is propaganda. Burns cleaner, by what standard?

Anyway, my first tank of E10 in my truck showed an improvment in fuel economy. I'm guessing it was becuase ethanol is a great fuel system cleaner and my truck probably needed it. The tank after that has been horrible. I'm seeing a 12% decrease in range for a tank of gas in my truck, so that should be 12% less mpg. I don't drive my wifes Honda enough, but I know her range is less as well. I need to run a tank of fuel through the Camaro without autoXing to be able to tell. I always get bad average milage from autoXing.

[CamaroFS34]

I have no idea what the difference is between methanol and ethanol.

Methanol is CH3OH.

Ethanol is CH3CH2OH.

Propyl has a third carbon, with the associated hydroxyl group.

And I didn't think my organic chem class would ever come in handy.

Karen

[rpoz-29]

A fellow VMSC member works for the Ethyl corporation in R&D. I asked him how the ethanol would affect a gas engine. He said the ethanol (which is a replacement for MTBE), gives off fewer BTU's thus giving a little less HP, and a less MPG. AND to further burst my bubble, we import the ethanol we use. Sooo, we're paying more, for less power, fewer miles per gallon, and are now dependent on someone for our ethanol. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/banghead.gif)

[bluethunder28]

A fellow VMSC member works for the Ethyl corporation in R&D. I asked him how the ethanol would affect a gas engine. He said the ethanol (which is a replacement for MTBE), gives off fewer BTU's thus giving a little less HP, and a less MPG. AND to further burst my bubble, we import the ethanol we use. Sooo, we're paying more, for less power, fewer miles per gallon, and are now dependent on someone for our ethanol. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/banghead.gif)

Factories are being built to make the ethanol here. I have family that farms and they have been waiting for the US to build these plants. They are wondering why the price of the fuel is so high since it costs 50% less then gas to produce. When we get on line, the fuel "should" be cheaper but we all know how the oil companies are.

[rpoz-29]

I saw a feature on the news the other night about brewing your own ethanol. There is an outfit called "Dogwood Energy", (dogwoodenergy.com), that sells stills for making your own ethanol. The unit they demonstrated puts out 5gph. I'm almost at the point that I hope the price of fuel doesn't tumble,( as some financial types say it will), simply because if it does, we'll forget all of this and never invest in alternative fuel.

[rushman]

I did a bunch of reading about this a few weeks ago. All of which may now be garbled in my mind:

10% ethanol is fine, many areas have been cutting gas with it for years.
Ethanol has less stored energy then gas, so expect fuel milage to go down (e85 or whatever is far far worse)

Ethanol absorbes a ton of water. People worry it will corrode things because of the potential water content, however from what I read, you would need to put a hose in your fuel tank to get enough to matter.

High concentrations of ethanol can not be used with standard fuel systems. It requires metal lines, higher pressure fuel injectors, and different ecu mappings. Right now the only cars that can run it with a few exceptions are trucks.

For anyone who lives in NY state, there is not a single gas station that carries e85. The NY Thruway department has a bunch of stations, but they are not public.

[nape]

For anyone who lives in NY state, there is not a single gas station that carries e85. The NY Thruway department has a bunch of stations, but they are not public.

Stations carrying E85 are popping up all over Chicagoland. The problem lies in the fact that they're charging only $.30/gal less then regular unleaded for something that's >25% less efficient.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/banghead.gif) (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rant.gif)

[v7guy]

Current petrol trends are the ONLY reason we are seeing E85. As mentioned, your fuel milage goes way down, a 10% blend should have the similar results, decreased fuel milage. If it was just as good or better for producing energy we would have been using it a long time ago. When the price of oil goes up other options become more appealing simply because of cost. In the past, petroleum based fuels produced the most energy and were the cheapest to make. Not the case anymore.

[Runn WS7]

I´ve tuned my car to go on 100% E85 and it runs better then ever... And i save ALOT of money because the E85 is much cheaper than gas here in Sweden.

[rushman]

10% blend doesn't cause much power loss. If ethanol is %25 weaker then gas, and only 10% of your gas is ethanol, its not that bad. NY has been mixing for years now.

Back to e85, I think if the price was right it would be a viable option. What I would like to see is a commitment to it (or something) and see the price go down, and the manufacturers tune/design their motors to get the same power output. I would take a 25% milage hit if the end output of power from the car was the same, and the price was closer to where it should be. I think part of the cost right now is lack of demand (ie, when the demand hets higher and production pics up, it will have more of a bulk value).

And I think once car manufacturers can design cars around e85 with gas as a secondary (rather then vice versa right now), the power will come back up (and then you can get a real kick in the pants by running real gas :-)

[Marty]

I lived in Iowa for many years where the state subsidizes the price of 10% ethanol fuel. Ethanol fuel typically runs at a higher octane like 91 which is a great benefit for a lower price. I ran a 305 Caprice for 250K miles on it and then a 3.1 liter Lumina for 185K with no fuel related issues. I would run all three of my vehicles on it now if it was offered in my area.

Keep in mind that E85 is completely different then fuel with only 10% ethanol. Cars have to be built to run on E85. I think Ford has a couple of million FFV Tauruses running around that run it and GM is building a lot more. There is a twist in the CAFE standards for automakers that motivates them to build E85 vehicles.