Sponsor news....need input Options

[Chris 96 WS6]

OK guys, the day has come. I've been approached by a vendor to become a sponsor here. You may be familiar with Street Lethal Performance already. David Mercier is who contacted me, and informed me they sell Koni and Ground Control among other things.

In a nutshell, I told David that if we were to bring him on board as a sponsor, it would be with the understanding that SLperf would not be immune to criticisms and they would be responsible for defending themselves and doing right by the customer. There would be no protection or favoritism given to protect the sponsorship income, as it is not essential to maintaining the site.

I closed by telling him we would discuss the issue among the members and arrive at a conclusion in the next couple of days.

So, I want an honest dialog here and whether you think we should bring in sponsors or not. This one would probably open padora's box.

Let me just throw out my thoughts on the subject. Personally I'd like to see sponsorships. I see it as part of the future for the site (which I think can be more than just a board...I see tech articles and such in the future). But anyway, I want to assure you guys as long as I own and maintain the site I will never compromise your ability to speak your mind. Sponsor dollars would/will never get in the way of that, and if it comes down to it I'd rather tell a sponsor to walk than create dissention among the members here. I also think that with the maturity level we have here, big blow ups with sponsors are not likely, but rather would be handled in an adult fashion.

So, with that, I'll let you guys hash it out. Whatever I think is the prevailing opinion is what I'll go with, despite my personal preferences. After all, without members, there is no FRRAX.com.

[robz71lm7]

I think it's great that you informed them that they will not have protected status if they do wrong. Everyone is an equal here.

Here's a couple questions...

How large and where would their banner ad be on this site?

What's the policy on them advertising through posts?

Would we have a sponsors forum?

I just wouldn't want to see a technical discussion that contains posts about sales. Now if a poster is asking about part X I don't see a problem with the vendor posting saying they have brand X for $X and/or their experience with it.

[Dewey316]

Chris,

I am fairly new to the site, but I will offer up a few points.

I personally am all for sponsors, they pay the bills. Bandwidth and web space are not free. The issue that I have always had with the sites that I do frequent that are 'sponsored' is this... they don't always sell the best parts, nor have the best prices. But, the other sites I have visited will delete/edit post that reference someone to a different vender. IMHO these sites should be a tool for the members to stay informed, and get good information. The best part for someone is not always sold by a sponsor. I personally will pay a few dollars more, and buy from sponsors of the sites that use, they deserve our support, and keep the sites we love running. But I do not want to feel obligated to recommend a sponsor to someone.

Thats just my $0.02.

[LT4Firehawk]

As long as there is no favoritism or protection given to the sponsor, then I don't have a problem with having them. I agree that they must understand that they must be responsible for handling complaints and issues, and that they are the ones responsible for their image. However, I would also say that we should have some policy in place allowing them the chance to respond/correct any issues before people start slamming them in an open forum.

[robz71lm7]

Yeah. I forgot about non-sponsors. Sponsors need to know that we have the freedom to post a link to any other vendor we choose whether in direct competition or not.

[Chris 96 WS6]

This would be my policy....suggestions welcome though. Same thing we do at mtfba.org:

-We would have a sponsors/GP forum separate from the member classifieds. Only paying sponsors would be allowed to post in there.

-"advertising" per se would not be allowed in any other forum, moderators would have to watch this but shouldn't be much of a problem. Technical replies and Q&A about a product would be allowed as long as its not construed as a sales pitch. Non sponsors would still have rights to post/reply to questions and such as well, just not in the Sponsor forum. And members themselves, private persons, have the right to post whatever they want...no URL links would be deleted just because it links to a non-sponsor vendor.

-What sponsors would get for their money: 1. A small banner ad appearing on the forum index page. I personally like the 100X50 banners because they are small and you can fit several of them on there w/o taking up a bunch of space. 2. Rights to the sponsor/GP forum And, well, that'd be about it.

I think its important not to freeze out non-sponsoring enterprises...as they are still enthusiasts and can and do provide things we all need and can benefit from. They will simply not benefit from the special arrangements that sponsors get, which again would be the banner ad and the right to post sales/GPs in the sponsor forum.

[trackbird]

If we can do it in a way that avoids the somewhat laughable situation that we've all seen on "other boards", where links get deleted, fights get started and tech info gets compromised, then it's a good thing. Bandwidth is not free. That is a known fact. So, if some positive cashflow can be generated to support the site and insure it's growth, that is a plus. One board I frequent has sponsors listed down the edge of a page. The thing is, that is a list that is nearly 2 pages long these days. Could a small add be placed on the top of the page that changes every few seconds (not so dial up freindly)? Or, could we keep the sponsors links on the Group Purchases and Vendors page. I don't want to cut into their advertising, but eliminating all the adds "strung everywhere" keeps the look of the board clean and makes it easy to navigate. I'm not sure these are workable suggestions (I guess if the ad price is "right", they will probably accept it just fine), but I thought I'd toss them out there.

Kevin

[94bird]

Chris, I think your ideas for sponsors are fair. I'd like to add though, please no pop-ups. I'd also want to emphasize keep the pages loading fast. Some of the sites have animated banners and other things that load slowly. I don't think there's a need for that kind of flash here.

Also, sponsors should not have moderator privileges on any forum. It's just too tempting for a sponsor to "edit" a post if they have that power.

[Chris 96 WS6]

Agreed Mike.

Sponsors being mods is a class 1 conflict of interest in my book.

For banners would could do a rotating image display that shows a different add every time the page is loaded at random. This could be in the top page header and could be shown on every forum/topic view, which would increase exposure w/o compromising page space if the image size was kept small.

[mustbnutz]

I like LT4 Firehawk's idea of some type of mechanism for the problem to be resolved without the "don't buy from..." post coming up first.
Maturity level here is great at the moment, but that could change quickly.
Is there a procedure to follow for an issue to be arbitrated between a member and sponsor?

[AllZWay]

I don't have a problem with having sponsors since the world revolves around money and this site is no different.

I do like the fact that they are told upfront that there is no protection from criticism.

We should be able to discuss products that other competitors sell....regardless if they are a sponsor or not.

I also think we should be able to point each other to GREAT deals that someone is having regardless of them being a sponsor or not.

Those are few of my big beefs with that "other" site.

Now that was my .02 and someone was probably ripped off. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[mitchntx]

Most of the topics that would concern me have already been addressed.

A random sponsor banner in the space next to the red TA in the site flag across the top would be a nice location. Just an idea ....

A sponsor posting in a thread, giving an opinion, is more than just an opinion. It HAS to be clouded with a sale in mind. The sponsors that come to mind have shown that exact attribute when posting on other boards. So, it's not about the user, rather the sale. Nature of the beast as best as I can tell.

Sam, Jason, Lou and others I have yet to identify, all have great things to add based upon their experiences. Even though their respective username is covert advertising, so far it hasn't been an issue. But it certainly could, especially if the site continues to grow. I certainly wouldn't want to introduce policy that precluded those precious site resources from weighing and injecting their opinions. If I were a paying sponsor and had an opposing opinion on a part I recommended, I would question what the point of paying would be. That could easily be a moderating nightmare ... ask me how I know ... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

We say sponsor get "no protection", but is that truly the case? I thought the "open environment" fostered on the site many of us came from worked out great and would have continued that way. Why? because we are grown-ups ... not having the street racer mentality that seems to foster conflict. We have heated debate and that is healthy. But we certainly don't need baby sitters.

So based upon that OPINION, I have to ask once again why would a vendor want to even sponsor this site with such gross exposure? If the vendor says because he loves us, then by all means, let them in ... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

If sponsorship monies are coming in, I would like to see them spent for webspace to host images and video clips. That can get pricey really fast. But, I think with limited time in the space, limited file size, specific file types accepted, no external linking, available to only registered users ... it cold be easily managed and not be too costly.

There are a few pros and numerous cons to site sponsors. Lile Chris said ... let's openly debate this and look long term. I would REALLY like to hear from Jason, Sam and Lou and get their POV as they don't have a horse in this race .... yet ...

[GlennCMC70]

as mitch touched on and i'll add my $.02 (if its worth that much). I have a problem w/ members using user I.D.'s that double as advertising for their web based parts sales. and i think that paying sponsors will have a problem w/ this also. i don't have a problem w/ sponsors, but i do have a problem w/ protecting them because they are a sponsor. prefect example is the BMR PHB failures. there is no way those failures could have been justified or defended. if BMR had been a direct sponsor of the "other" site, it would have been deleted even though there was a valid safety concern.
also, how can you take advise about a part and believe its not "tainted" by the need to earn an income and survive in these hard financial times. there are exceptions to this, but its hard to tell when its TYPED here. sponsor often have to pay a vendor fee just to be authorised to sell parts made by other companies. its hard to just stop selling a part that you just realized is not the best, when you have a financial investment w/ that part/company.
anyways, its just my input. i'll go w/ whatever decision is made here by Chris and/or the majority.

[Chris 96 WS6]

also, how can you take advise about a part and believe its not "tainted" by the need to earn an income and survive in these hard financial times.

Well with unemployment at 5.6% right now, it is lower than the average for the entire decade of the 90s (and the 80s as well). With that stated I think most of the "hardness" of the current times is media manufactured and that we are well on our way out of it anyway.

But, I digress (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

So what I seem to be hearing from Mitch and Glen is that you have concerns with vendors & sponsoring vendors discussing products outside of the sponsor forum? I must be misunderstanding, because this could already be happening regardless of sponsorships. Some of these concerns are existing problems that sponsorships would not necessarily worsen.

But please clarify, I want to be sure I get what you are saying.

[Dewey316]

but i do have a problem w/ protecting them because they are a sponsor. prefect example is the BMR PHB failures. there is no way those failures could have been justified or defended.

I entirely agree with that, i broke 2 diffrent spohn control arms, at 2 diffrent times. and posted about it on another site, the posts got deleted 3 diffrent times, and i got warned by the site admins for posting a thread that was "talking bad about a sponsor, yo" (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) , it was something i thought was a valid saftey concern, and should have been made a sticky, I did contact Spohn about the failures, and he did a good job of, looking into the failures, and actualy changed his design. but there are probably still many people running that older design, that could have been warned of a potential failure.

[rmackintosh]

I think you have a good handle on all of the possible conflicts, and how to approach them in the discussions above. I agree that sponsorships are probably the future for the long term for the board. I too would like to see an archive of tech articles like "How to install/maintain Prospeeds" or other info that is good reference for the atypical Fbody.

My only concern is to avoid the post editing/shutting down/hero worship that went on on the "other" boards....now this of course is not entirely on the sponsors shoulders...we too share a responsability in "keeping it real" so to speak. I say go for it, we seem to be getting along well here so far, and we alone are responsible for keeping it that way.

[Crazy Canuck]

Looks like what I wanted to say is already said... but here it goes:
1. No sales pitch in technical forums
2. Sales pitch in GP/Sponsor forum
3. OK to reply to a thread asking for a specific product if sponsor has it... but no spamming
4. Avoid Sponsor = Moderator... (conflict of interests can occur)
5. No immunity whatsoever for advertising other places.. if there is an issue, then step to the plate and deal with it
6. The more, the merryier... it will keep this site alive
7. Since we're all adults and sponsors get no protection, I will support the sponsors.. and in the end, that is what will keep the sponsor here... the $$$ generated by here... just make sure he knows you heard it from here.

[mitchntx]

So what I seem to be hearing from Mitch and Glen is that you have concerns with vendors & sponsoring vendors discussing products outside of the sponsor forum? I must be misunderstanding, because this could already be happening regardless of sponsorships. Some of these concerns are existing problems that sponsorships would not necessarily worsen.

But please clarify, I want to be sure I get what you are saying.

It is happening and that's reason I said it was the nature of the beast.

But it's also the reason why I would like to hear Sam, Lou and Jason's POV so that I can make a fair judgement ... see both sides of the fence.

None of them are currently on your potential sponsor list, so I think their POV would be most beneficial in making an informed, long term decision.

Does that help clarify?

[Chris 96 WS6]

Yes, very much, thanks (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[mitchntx]

Let me add that I make a distinction between an an advertiser and a sponsor.

A sponsor pays for advertising