I'm thinking about rocking the LT1 a little longer.... Options

[Steve91T]

So I've got a 97 SS that now looks like a mismatched LS1 SS. I'm running a craigslist LT1 that's bone stock, down to the mani's and Y pipe. The engine sat for years before I got it. I did a dry compression and leak down test and my numbers were all over the place. I took the chance that it just needed to be run. Long story short, it took a while but it started to run pretty good. So now I've done 3 track days and it and it blew me away. I fully expected to go home with no less than half of the Pistons I started the day with. Not only did it not miss a beat, it used at most 1/2 quart of oil, no smoke, and seemed happy as hell all day long.

So my plan was for an LS1 swap later this year. But now I'm thinking this engine might be healthier than I thought. TT3 rules require me to have around 350 rwhp for my comp weight (3400 lbs). I can knock 100 lbs off the nose by going to an LS1 and light flywheel and clutch. The problem I have is my LT1 isn't worth anything. $500? Maybe? I figure the LS1 swap will cost me at least $3k. But LT's, cam and tune will be about $1500. I figure both should get me close enough to 350 rwhp.

Right now I'm way down on power, so I have to do something. I really want an LS1, but is it worth an extra $1500? At the same time I'm afraid I'm going to buy headers and a cam and the next day it's going to blow up. What would you guys do?

[trackbird]

LT1 engine parts are not real common these days. I fear you could have issues if the motor lets go and you need to find another one. On the other hand, you have the benefit of time so I'd look for inexpensive LS1 parts and start collecting things while you keep running the LT1. Hopefully, you can gather up the swap parts before the LT1 lets go. In good news, the LT1 version of the T56 seems to be increasing in value because they are getting a bit hard to find. I'd think you could sell your trans for more than an LSx trans and maybe make up a little bit of the money.

[Casey_SS]

Problem with the LS1 swap on these cars is all the little stuff that also has to be changed, i.e. trans, clutch hydraulics, pedals, wiring, etc. But I'd imagine you know plenty about that already. If you're content to run it as-is until something "bad" happens and then decide what to do next, that wouldn't be the worst way to go by far but if your goals include running a trouble-free season, multiple seasons, points championships, etc. then read on...

With the motor sitting for a long time, the main concern is moisture damage, i.e. rust in undesirable places, pitting of the bearings and so forth. If any of that is suspect AND you'd rather deal with it now vs. "wait and see", here's what I would do:
1. Pull the motor before it develops an issue and if you have a good local shop you trust, rebuild the short block with good bearings setup on the loose side (.0025ish on mains & rods). Have it internally balanced, add an ATI damper and neutral balanced aluminum flywheel - have it balanced with the pressure plate attached. If you don't have a good local shop, then order a crate short block from a reputable builder. They're not much more expensive and shipping is on par with a set of brake pads. You don't need expensive forged pistons or fancy cranks but a budget brand (Scat?) forged I-beam rod with ARP bolts would be a reasonable upgrade for longevity.
2. Send your heads to AI, LE, or whoever is still doing these. Better option is to get a set of AFRs and run a smaller cam for more torque while still making the number you want on a conservative tune. Personally, I'd shoot for 12.0-12.2 AFR with 30-32 degrees of timing. If you can make the number on that, you should have plenty of safety margin for hot days, sub-par gas, other stuff going wrong, etc. If you're willing to spend a few hours with Google, you'll find you can swap to an OBD1 PCM very cheap and tune it yourself with free versions of Tunercats and Datamaster. You'll end up spending the difference on a wideband and dyno time but you'll be in a better position for the long run.
3. Use an MSD opti cap & rotor to avoid the plastic "weld" on the rotor letting go at high rpm. Put red loctite on the rotor screws.
4. Use a Canton road race oil pan with a stock pressure Melling pump. High volume pumps put more oil in the heads and it can't drain back fast enough without machine work to enlarge the drain back holes.
5. Save headers for a future upgrade. They're expensive to start with and you'll need a welder to fab the rest of the exhaust to actually fit without burning stuff or getting crunched every time you hop a curb or back off the trailer.

Opinions will vary and it's easy to sit here and spend your money but honestly, if I were starting over with a 97 SS as you described and I wanted to race it for the next 3-5 years, this is exactly what I'd do. Hope this helps...

[Steve91T]

Thanks for the opinions. There's a really good tuning shop around here. I stopped by to have them fix my speedo since I changed rear gears. They no longer support the LT1.

Anyway, one thing I forgot to add was that I have a 99 parts car. I've got everything I need except the engine, tranny, and wiring harness.

I would probably just drive to hawksthirdgen and pick out a nice 75k mile engine/t-56 for $4500. That includes all accessories, wiring harness and ECU. I could then sell my T-56 for probably $1800 since it's got only 99,000 miles on it. The LT1, maybe $500?

To meet my power goals, I'd install an LS6 cam/springs and keep the stock manifolds and have it tuned.

My LT1 already has a Moroso oil pan and I took the opti apart and put loctite on the screws. It makes great oil pressure. I've got an oil sample ready to be sent out. I'm curious to see what blackstone finds.

If I keep it, I need more power. LT's and a cam would do that. But then I still have an LT1.

Maybe I should throw it on Craigslist and see how much I can get for it while it's still running well. Idk

[dailydriver]

Yes, I REALLY wish that Hawks had <100K LS6es for LESS THAN $4500.00!!

I know it does not help you due to class power to weight rules, but I WOULD BE willing to get one of the GM/Chevy Performance LS3 crate engine variants (for ~$5800.00 to ~$6500.00) IF they offered it with the 24T reluctor wheel already on the crank.
The more horror stories I hear about the Lingenfelter conversion box for this purpose, the more I do NOT trust this thing, and I REFUSE to pay upwards of $2500.00 EXTRA for a whole bottom end rebuild on a brand new engine just to get the f'ing correct reluctor on the crank. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

In all of your conversations with Hawks on their used LSxes, did they give you ANY indication whatsoever on ANY type of warranty, implied or otherwise???

This post has been edited by dailydriver: May 30 2016, 10:22 PM

[CrashTestDummy]

Thanks for the opinions. There's a really good tuning shop around here. I stopped by to have them fix my speedo since I changed rear gears. They no longer support the LT1.

<SNIP>

Yeah, that's the crap we got from a local tuner, WHO TUNED OUR CAR A YEAR BEFORE!! Oh, we don't do LT1s anymore. That's one local customer lost, for ANYTHING. I'll drive to Alvin, or mail order first. FSCKERS!! But I'm not bitter. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/2thumbs.gif)

[Steve91T]

Thanks for the opinions. There's a really good tuning shop around here. I stopped by to have them fix my speedo since I changed rear gears. They no longer support the LT1.

<SNIP>

Yeah, that's the crap we got from a local tuner, WHO TUNED OUR CAR A YEAR BEFORE!! Oh, we don't do LT1s anymore. That's one local customer lost, for ANYTHING. I'll drive to Alvin, or mail order first. FSCKERS!! But I'm not bitter. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/2thumbs.gif)

Seriously, how much overhead can can there possibly be to keep a cable and a CD that says "LT1 Edit" in the drawer? They are saving money by turning away LT1 cars? I don't get it.

[Steve91T]

Yes, I REALLY wish that Hawks had <100K LS6es for LESS THAN $4500.00!!

I know it does not help you due to class power to weight rules, but I WOULD BE willing to get one of the GM/Chevy Performance LS3 crate engine variants (for ~$5800.00 to ~$6500.00) IF they offered it with the 24T reluctor wheel already on the crank.
The more horror stories I hear about the Lingenfelter conversion box for this purpose, the more I do NOT trust this thing, and I REFUSE to pay upwards of $2500.00 EXTRA for a whole bottom end rebuild on a brand new engine just to get the f'ing correct reluctor on the crank. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

In all of your conversations with Hawks on their used LSxes, did they give you ANY indication whatsoever on ANY type of warranty, implied or otherwise???

Yeah I'd love an LS3, but at the same time I don't know how much power I want yet. TT3 is a great starting point at 350. TT2 is like 430. I've read how much more money it cost to have that kind of power....things wear out faster. Plus, this car will always be street legal, which means roll bar only, no cage. 430 rwhp means insane speeds at VIR. 150+

I think the LS1 will give me all the power I really need. If I decide to get stupid, heads and cam LS1's produce 450 to the ground.


I think hawks said they have LS6's for $4500. But they are out of CTSV's which mean you need accessories.

The LS1's are $3k for 75-100k miles. I asked about what kind of warranty I get since I'm pretty much paying for the convience of getting a complete engine that they yanked out. They said they test compression and oil press. If all is well, they then sell the engine and provide a "start up warranty, within reason". He said they don't give something like a 30 day warranty because most people hot rod or race these engines. That makes sense. They said that if I get an engine that has a major problem from the start, they'll take care of it. I think they said I could swap it for another one, but don't quote me on that. They try to do enough testing to make sure that doesn't happen though.

Another thing I like is if I buy an engine/tranny for $4500, I get everything, unseparated, from the front to the back.

This post has been edited by Steve91T: May 31 2016, 06:00 AM

[dailydriver]

^^^Yes, that is EXACTLY WHY I am willing to drive (or flatbed if needs be) the car down there, and pay the hotel expense for three+ days to wait around while they do the swap, so that when the engine they install is a dud, they have NO excuse to NOT to replace it with a good one. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I was also thinking about the full engine/trans swap, especially since they will give me a $1000.00 'core' for MY 180K mile T56, but then you are at the mercy of whatever clutch is in that set up, and it can be the crappy stock Valeo weakling if the miles are low enough. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

This post has been edited by dailydriver: May 31 2016, 10:36 PM

[Steve91T]

^^^Yes, that is EXACTLY WHY I am willing to drive (or flatbed if needs be) the car down there, and pay the hotel expense for three+ days to wait around while they do the swap, so that when the engine they install is a dud, they have NO excuse to NOT to replace it with a good one. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I was also thinking about the full engine/trans swap, especially since they will give me a $1000.00 'core' for MY 180K mile T56, but then you are at the mercy of whatever clutch is in that set up, and it can be the crappy stock Valeo weakling if the miles are low enough. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

How much do they charge to do the swap? I've pulled my engine before and it's really not that hard, so I'll definitely save the money and do it myself.

I think ultimately it makes sense to sell my engine/tranny for as much as I can and get the LS1. In the long run, it makes more sense to do that than put any money at all into my LT1.

[nape]

Yeah I'd love an LS3, but at the same time I don't know how much power I want yet. TT3 is a great starting point at 350. TT2 is like 430. I've read how much more money it cost to have that kind of power....things wear out faster. Plus, this car will always be street legal, which means roll bar only, no cage. 430 rwhp means insane speeds at VIR. 150+

I think the LS1 will give me all the power I really need. If I decide to get stupid, heads and cam LS1's produce 450 to the ground.

I know you're fairly new to tracking, but horsepower is one of the smallest parts of the speed puzzle. Too many people go horsepower crazy and then wonder why the fast guys are running away with way less power. Seat time, seat time, seat time. Hanging out with the fast guys helps too, then you'll figure out how to turn your seat time into quality seat time.

I think hawks said they have LS6's for $4500. But they are out of CTSV's which mean you need accessories.

The LS1's are $3k for 75-100k miles. I asked about what kind of warranty I get since I'm pretty much paying for the convience of getting a complete engine that they yanked out. They said they test compression and oil press. If all is well, they then sell the engine and provide a "start up warranty, within reason". He said they don't give something like a 30 day warranty because most people hot rod or race these engines. That makes sense. They said that if I get an engine that has a major problem from the start, they'll take care of it. I think they said I could swap it for another one, but don't quote me on that. They try to do enough testing to make sure that doesn't happen though.

Another thing I like is if I buy an engine/tranny for $4500, I get everything, unseparated, from the front to the back.

For $4500, why not just buy a $5-6000 LS1/T56 car and having everything? Oil pan/pickup/windage tray, pedals, hydraulics, harness, PCM, accessories, etc. CTS-V T56s will need F-body tailshaft housing, shifter, etc. It's not a bad deal for a muscle car swap, but the F-body specific parts will add up fast.

Not trying to shoot down your idea, but put a parts list together first to make sure it makes sense.

This post has been edited by nape: Jun 1 2016, 02:01 AM

[Steve91T]

Yeah I'd love an LS3, but at the same time I don't know how much power I want yet. TT3 is a great starting point at 350. TT2 is like 430. I've read how much more money it cost to have that kind of power....things wear out faster. Plus, this car will always be street legal, which means roll bar only, no cage. 430 rwhp means insane speeds at VIR. 150+

I think the LS1 will give me all the power I really need. If I decide to get stupid, heads and cam LS1's produce 450 to the ground.

I know you're fairly new to tracking, but horsepower is one of the smallest parts of the speed puzzle. Too many people go horsepower crazy and then wonder why the fast guys are running away with way less power. Seat time, seat time, seat time. Hanging out with the fast guys helps too, then you'll figure out how to turn your seat time into quality seat time.

I think hawks said they have LS6's for $4500. But they are out of CTSV's which mean you need accessories.

The LS1's are $3k for 75-100k miles. I asked about what kind of warranty I get since I'm pretty much paying for the convience of getting a complete engine that they yanked out. They said they test compression and oil press. If all is well, they then sell the engine and provide a "start up warranty, within reason". He said they don't give something like a 30 day warranty because most people hot rod or race these engines. That makes sense. They said that if I get an engine that has a major problem from the start, they'll take care of it. I think they said I could swap it for another one, but don't quote me on that. They try to do enough testing to make sure that doesn't happen though.

Another thing I like is if I buy an engine/tranny for $4500, I get everything, unseparated, from the front to the back.

For $4500, why not just buy a $5-6000 LS1/T56 car and having everything? Oil pan/pickup/windage tray, pedals, hydraulics, harness, PCM, accessories, etc. CTS-V T56s will need F-body tailshaft housing, shifter, etc. It's not a bad deal for a muscle car swap, but the F-body specific parts will add up fast.

Not trying to shoot down your idea, but put a parts list together first to make sure it makes sense.

Thanks for your opinions. To answer some of your questions....

I've been doing track days on and off since I was 18 in a 1991 MR2 Turbo. I've been doing them ever since. I'm 35 now.

I have been focusing on my skills and the car's handling and braking before worrying about power. Not to pat myself too hard, but I was pretty damn close to the TT3 lap times on 6 year old NT-01's and about 70 hp under the limit. That being said, I'm not going to be competitive with this engine as it stands.

The last thing I want to add is I have a 99 parts car complete except engine, tranny, wiring harness and ECU. Hawksthirdgen will sell me an engine, tranny, wiring harness and ECU complete with accessories out of an Fbody. So I would have everything I need. That's why I'm seriously considering it.

[dailydriver]

^^^Yes, that is EXACTLY WHY I am willing to drive (or flatbed if needs be) the car down there, and pay the hotel expense for three+ days to wait around while they do the swap, so that when the engine they install is a dud, they have NO excuse to NOT to replace it with a good one. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I was also thinking about the full engine/trans swap, especially since they will give me a $1000.00 'core' for MY 180K mile T56, but then you are at the mercy of whatever clutch is in that set up, and it can be the crappy stock Valeo weakling if the miles are low enough. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

How much do they charge to do the swap? I've pulled my engine before and it's really not that hard, so I'll definitely save the money and do it myself.

I think ultimately it makes sense to sell my engine/tranny for as much as I can and get the LS1. In the long run, it makes more sense to do that than put any money at all into my LT1.

They get ~$1200.00 just for the R&R labor, whereas most of the places around me here in Eastern Pennsyltuckey get MORE THAN TWICE that for the same exact thing, with one exception of a quote I got for ~$1050.00, but he almost sounded like he would PURPOSELY sabotage a Hawks used engine, with all of the disclaimers he was throwing around, so I do NOT trust him to install anything but a warrantied Chevy performance LS3 crate (and maybe not even that!).
But if Hawks know that THEY will be replacing an engine that THEY sold me on THEIR labor (and second engine) dime, I am guessing that they will MAKE SURE that I get a 'good one' to start with, no?

Since I neither have the; space, facilities, tools, helpers, or even the permission of my HOA (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/bigun2.gif) ($50.00 initial fine, TRIPLING with EVERY subsequent infraction!! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/mad.gif) ) to do this swap, I am REALLY f'ed, unless I totally give up on the LSx f bodies, this car gets sold as a roller, and I go to the anemic FWD crew with the Fiesta STs I'm looking at, and throwing a Quaife diff in it to help the torque-steer/turn-in/apex launching. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

[robz71lm7]

Unless you get a smoking LS1 deal, you're better off buying a new car than doing the swap.

[Steve91T]

Unless you get a smoking LS1 deal, you're better off buying a new car than doing the swap.

That's too broad of a statement. Its not true in my case. I've done way too much to my car plus I've got the LS1 parts car. The engines from hawks are out of Fbody's, so no trying to source accessories and cross members and crap that adds up.

For the most part, you are correct.

[Steve91T]

I just re read this thread. Since I bought that 1SC, I've been thinking a lot about what to do with my car. And as much as I want an LS1, I just can't throw away a perfectly good LT1. They are worth absolutely nothing these days, so selling it for anything more than a few hundred isn't going to happen. It ran flawlessly at 3 track days and the oil sample said its not making metal. The cost of the swap will buy a lot of track days and tires. So, I'm going to run her till she blows. I would love to add long tubes and a tune to get another 20 or so hp, but I know the second I do that, I'll throw a rod out the block. So I'll just get new tires and start doing TT3. I'll be about 50 hp shy, but it'll give me a chance to see how I like it before building an engine just for those rules.

Actually they are coming out with TT4 which has a lower power to weight, maybe I'll fit in that for now.

Anyway, long live the LT1....for now.

[CrashTestDummy]

Nothing wrong with working on seat time, and your driving skills. Some of the best times I've had on track were in a 6-wheel Toyota pickup with a 20-R and automatic. Slow down the straights, but I hardly had to brake for the corners, much to Mustang drivers chagrin. Got to really work on car placement and braking points, lap, after lap, after lap..... There's a LOT to be said about a dependable ride, even if it isn't the quickest out there.

[RichJ]

Do you all think the LT1 just needs the Canton pan to avoid oil pressure issues? My 95 with 55k miles hasn't seen a road course since 2008, but I'm thinking of trying it again. It's been driven about 20 weekends a year since then with regular oil changes. Stock short block, stock oil pan, top end package making around 360 whp. I tend to shift below 6k on track and my local tracks are Summit Point and VIR. Just wondering if an Accusump is something to consider. Also, on the Canton pan, will it fit with Hooker long tubes?

Hope this doesn't look like a thread jack. I'm sort of in the same boat with my LT1.

[Steve91T]

Do you all think the LT1 just needs the Canton pan to avoid oil pressure issues? My 95 with 55k miles hasn't seen a road course since 2008, but I'm thinking of trying it again. It's been driven about 20 weekends a year since then with regular oil changes. Stock short block, stock oil pan, top end package making around 360 whp. I tend to shift below 6k on track and my local tracks are Summit Point and VIR. Just wondering if an Accusump is something to consider. Also, on the Canton pan, will it fit with Hooker long tubes?

Hope this doesn't look like a thread jack. I'm sort of in the same boat with my LT1.

I've done a lot of track days at VIR and CMP and I've never lost oil pressure with the Canton pan. The old engine I had was a 396 LT1 making 380 rwhp (i know, that's low for a stroker) and that pan was all that I needed.

The last 3 track days this year on my bone stock LT1 I never lost oil pressure in the corners. And that was on track tires pulling 1.1 g's.

A lot of people run accusumps, but in my case I don't need it.

[trackbird]

Do you all think the LT1 just needs the Canton pan to avoid oil pressure issues? My 95 with 55k miles hasn't seen a road course since 2008, but I'm thinking of trying it again. It's been driven about 20 weekends a year since then with regular oil changes. Stock short block, stock oil pan, top end package making around 360 whp. I tend to shift below 6k on track and my local tracks are Summit Point and VIR. Just wondering if an Accusump is something to consider. Also, on the Canton pan, will it fit with Hooker long tubes?

Hope this doesn't look like a thread jack. I'm sort of in the same boat with my LT1.

I've done a lot of track days at VIR and CMP and I've never lost oil pressure with the Canton pan. The old engine I had was a 396 LT1 making 380 rwhp (i know, that's low for a stroker) and that pan was all that I needed.

The last 3 track days this year on my bone stock LT1 I never lost oil pressure in the corners. And that was on track tires pulling 1.1 g's.

A lot of people run accusumps, but in my case I don't need it.

Are you relying on the factory gauge for that info? I had a 30 PSI sensor (below 30 psi it turned on an Autometer Pro light) and I saw it "constantly" autocrossing my 1992 Z28 on street tires with a TPIS oil pan (with a diamond "windage tray" and basic crank scraper). I even turned the light on with the 3 quart accusump running. This was on Sumitomo street tires. I might not have seen the light as much with a 15 psi sending unit, but 30 was my comfort limit since I might be at 6,400 rpm when the light came on. When that motor came apart (after 1,200 total miles), the #4 main bearing was wiped and the crank needed turned.