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> Watts Link, No joke.....
Sam Strano
post Jul 17 2008, 11:12 PM
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I'm now happy to announce we can take pre-orders on a Watts Link for all 82-02 F-bodies with stock diamter axle tubes. There is a version for bigger axle tubes (suck as 12-bolts, etc.) in the works.

They should be ready to ship in approximately 2-3 weeks. The unit is made by Fays2 who has been doing these for Mustangs for more than a few years. I not only trust the unit and have had all my questions answered, but will be putting one on my car as soon as possible. Jim and I have had a few discussions about the design and I'm happy to say he addressed my main concerns regarding approximate roll-center height. I wanted to make sure we could start @ stock height and adjust down as the owner sees fit. That has been done and implimented in this unit.

Details, specs and a photo on a 4th gen can be seen here:
http://www.stranoparts.com/partdetails.php...7&ModelID=7

(IMG:http://www.stranoparts.com/data/images/p30617181655.jpg)


Price is $650 Plus shipping. Shipping costs will normally not exceed $30 in most cases.

Fays2 own website has the pricing set lower, but after a discussion with Jim Fay, he informed me the prices are incorrect and will be changed.
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poSSum
post Jul 17 2008, 11:39 PM
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Can you tell someone that is slowly grasping the concept of "what are you trying to fix?" when considering parts what a Watt's linkage fixes?
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Bald54
post Jul 17 2008, 11:44 PM
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I was just curious what Solo class those would be allowed in. Sorry, I'm too lazy to look it up in the rule book.
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slowTA
post Jul 18 2008, 12:00 AM
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Will this require a spring and shock change too? Looking forward to reviews.
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Sam Strano
post Jul 18 2008, 12:20 AM
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Let's see if I can answer all 3 in one post...

What are we "trying to fix"? The arc the PHB swing on as the suspension and body move up and down. Long PHB's have a lesser amount of arc than short ones, but it's still there. In fact on my car the PHB is set so that when viewed on 315's the LR body is actually not 100% centered. If I center the body the LR tire will rub the inner fender and the RR will rub the quarter panel due to the arc the PHB moves in as the car moves. And because of the way a PHB mounts, the roll center moves up and down depending on which way you are turning. The PHB acutally pushes up and pulls down on the body when you are going in different directions. A Watts link does not do this, there is no jacking up or down, and the axle moves truly veritically up and down but still has all the lateral control (and maybe even a bit more since the arms are shorter and stiffer than a roughly 4' long PHB that is more subject to flexing (which is why I don't use tubular aluminum PHB's).

Ever notice, if you have a data logger, or have seen logs that PHB don't pull the same G load though left and right hand corners? Even if you corner balance it perfectly, the dynamic change in the roll center height effects the balance of the car. To this point nobody has had a Watts for this car. I've been trying to do one, but I'm not a machinist and don't have the ability. This is something that has been long overdue for the truly serious, but for one reason or another nobody acutally got made. Been talked about for a long time for this car, and have been around for a LONG time for other cars. In fact the 1st generation Mazda RX7 had one stock (in 1978). Australian V8 Supercars use them (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V8_Supercars). Trans-Am/GT1 cars use them (though I don't know they all do).

What classes are they legal for? ESP, SM... maybe in STX and STU too, but I'd have to read up on their rules. It is 100% ESP legal.

Shock and spring change needed? Nope. The upper most adjustment is at stock static roll center height (it moves up and down in action as stated before). You can drop it if you like (and some of you do). You can drop the roll center height in very small increments, .5" at a time if you see fit.

This post has been edited by Sam Strano: Jul 18 2008, 12:28 AM
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marka
post Jul 18 2008, 12:33 AM
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Howdy,

Sam, have you done a back to back test with this thing yet?

Mark
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Sam Strano
post Jul 18 2008, 12:38 AM
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I have not, and don't claim to--yet. Nothing here I don't like but the little gain in unsprung weight, and that's so minor considering the mass we already carry.

I will, and I'm sure it'll be easier to drive (which I'm looking forward to). I might just have to un-retire the Camaro for 2009....

This post has been edited by Sam Strano: Jul 18 2008, 12:39 AM
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marka
post Jul 18 2008, 12:46 AM
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Howdy,

QUOTE (Sam Strano @ Jul 17 2008, 08:38 PM) *
I have not, and don't claim to--yet. Nothing here I don't like but the little gain in unsprung weight, and that's so minor considering the mass we already carry.

I will, and I'm sure it'll be easier to drive (which I'm looking forward to). I might just have to un-retire the Camaro for 2009....


I'll be interested to hear results from the test... Hopefully you'll do a true back to back with the panhard vs. the watts link.

Its certainly true that it seems like anyone that's serious (that can) uses a watts link rather than a panhard. I've always wondered if that was a "real" difference or something more theoretical than anything else.

Mark
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sgarnett
post Jul 18 2008, 12:59 AM
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It looks like adjusting the roll center height could be done in minutes with ramps. Just loosen the center bolt, slide it to where you wnat it, tighten bolt, done! Small changes in the roll center height can be used to fine-tune the handling, and don't necessarily require spring and shock changes.

My roll center is set somewhere in the ballpark of 3/4~1" lower than Sam's (using the PHR), and I'm still using 150 springs and Koni 3rd gen rear shocks on the second softest setting. I do run a stiffer rear bar though.

OTOH, if you want to drop it the full 3.5" allowed by the Watts setup (which I don't think Sam is suggesting), you will probably need to change the springs and shocks.

Coincidentally, I have a test-n-tune coming up in mid August. Hmmm....

This post has been edited by sgarnett: Jul 18 2008, 04:49 AM
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sgarnett
post Jul 18 2008, 01:25 AM
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Sam, do you know if that will clear an AAM/SS diff cover?
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Sam Strano
post Jul 18 2008, 04:01 PM
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Chris asked it if would require a spring and shock change. As long as you current roll center height is between stock and 3.5" lower your current setup will work. The more you play with the height, you might find you want to tweak springs, shocks, and/or bars to best match, but that's not any different than when we play with any number of other things.

And yep, the height adjustment is easy. As far as I can see the only hassle will be having to remove the link to do gear work/oil changes because the diff cover becomes a bit hidden.

The diff cover will not be an issue as far I can tell. I mentioned elsewhere (maybe not here), that the swaybar has to rotate up and behind the diff cover, and the Watts does not hinder that movement. In fact I've seen cars where the rear bar has dragged an AAM cover under compression.
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Sam Strano
post Jul 18 2008, 08:49 PM
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That's 2 orders so far.

FWIW, I'm taking pre-orders. You order, but I don't charge the card until I get the word they are getting ready to ship. When I have a more exact ETA, I'll post the date. As of now it's scheduled to be within 3 weeks.
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00 SS
post Jul 19 2008, 03:55 AM
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Sam,

Does installation require any permanent changes to the car or does it just bolt up to existing brackets?

Thanks,
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sgarnett
post Jul 19 2008, 04:32 AM
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"True Bolt in design. No welding, cutting, and uses factory mounting points"
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00 SS
post Jul 19 2008, 06:01 PM
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OK, so I missed that part.
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JimMueller
post Jul 20 2008, 01:09 AM
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Hmm, so will this play nicely with those folks who have the UETA and say 300lb rear springs due to lowering the rear PHB 4"? Oh, does it come in black?
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sgarnett
post Jul 20 2008, 03:05 AM
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Eliminating lateral movement of the axle should actually make setting up the UETA slightly easier.

It sounds like the Watts setup will allow you to get the roll center to within about 1/2" of your lowered PHB setup. That may make the car slightly looser. On the OTOH, since the roll center won't be moving around as much with the Watts setup, slightly looser may be OK.

I'm glad you asked about a black finish option. I'd prefer that too, but I can live with red (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

This post has been edited by sgarnett: Jul 20 2008, 03:12 AM
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93FirehawkTA
post Jul 20 2008, 04:30 PM
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I'm interested... but its gotta come in black (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/gr_grin.gif)
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Sam Strano
post Jul 21 2008, 03:32 PM
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I'll have to check on black. I'm not sure if that can be done or not, but I could care less. I'm getting it for what it does, not what it looks like. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

If the roll center heights are set the same the result should be similar, but with less change in RC height (basically none) with the Watts vs. it moving both up and down to some degree with the PHB.
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sgarnett
post Jul 21 2008, 06:28 PM
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QUOTE (Sam Strano @ Jul 21 2008, 11:32 AM) *
I'll have to check on black. I'm not sure if that can be done or not, but I could care less. I'm getting it for what it does, not what it looks like. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
It's no big deal for me either way, but IF there's a choice, I'd take discrete chassis black (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I certainly wouldn't delay my order for it.
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