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Posted by: Hookdup Jul 30 2014, 12:31 AM

New here, and seems to be the place to be....
Short history, started HPDE last fall at NJMP,
After 10 days went and bought a
1998 Trans Am, which was built by Wheel to Wheel in Detroit,
ran Motorola/Rolex GT 1998-2002, then became ITe/AIX car.

Now it's a HPDE /Track DayCar
THat I am TRYING TO SORT>>>>>>>>>>>maybe TT in the future..

MAJOR ISSUE: BRAKES SHI**TY............Must hit pedal 2x's to set up for turn....
Specs:
1998 Trans Am / 392 RWHP LS6 / Son of TransZilla T56 (yea that was a 5k mistake, visit that later)
SLP Konis, rear adjustable seats, Front NASCAR sway bay, Rear Blade Sway Bar
17x11 CCW275/40 17 R1's

Need insight on how to make this car brake as well as my 13' 1LE Camaro
currently , WW 6SLR fronts, new rotors, new hats, PBR rears
Corner balanced to 49.8 % a week ago, (still LF ride height 3/4 lower, so I screwded up
my first attempt!!!)
Car has proven history,
looking for insight on how to make right!!
Thanks from new guy,
Rich
hookdup@comc a st dott net
ps how do add pics on this forum??

Posted by: FASTFATBOY Jul 30 2014, 01:13 AM

Check the front wheels bearings for slack.

What rear end and posi unit are in the car?

C Clip rear ends like the stock one have pad knockback, it requires a pedal pump prior to the brake zone.


Pics?

Posted by: Hookdup Jul 30 2014, 01:25 AM

I do not know how to add attachment, do I have to have posted on server?
A couple guys noticed , when I ran this car, I was braking, well brake light where I never braked before...
in apprehension, as , still learning.
Rear is Auburn, w/ 3.73, Auburn seems to think it is a pro series, (I do not know how to verify "Woobler)
Break away rolling torque when I check diff was 55 ft lbs. as measured on lug nut as per info from Auburn.
Front wheel bearing SEEM ok..
Strange part when I got car, was neither I , or wildwood could explain why 4-5 of the radial rotor
grooves were worn flat yet one remained..
SO I installed new hats and rotors

Was Originally, # 46 MBR Racing / Mike Baughman
Who was very helpful in learning history,
Then Ran ITE/AIX ( Have both books) mostly VIR/Summit pT.
by a guy who jumped to Vipers..

Posted by: Blainefab Jul 30 2014, 05:48 AM

Check for front hub play by wiggling at 12 and 6 o'clock

Check that the hats are sitting flat on the hubs - uneven wear on the rotor indicates runout, which would cause severe knockback. Look for witness marks inside your old hats

Check that all brake hardware is tight, pad backing plates are not bent

Check the pads for delamination of the pad from the backing plate

Check rear axle end play, push/pull in/out on the wheel

Are rear calipers OEM sliders? They work the best on the cclip axles, 4 piston rears don't like end play

Bleed the brakes

Are there any brake systems add-ons? recirc/bias/ABS etc?

Still using the booster, or manual brakes?

Check for worn or loose hardware on the pedal to booster linkage, and booster/master cyl mounting.

Check for cracking of the firewall at the booster mount

publish your pic on a hosting site, click on the 'insert image' tag in the menu above your posting window, copy the URL of the pic into the pop up, click on OK

Posted by: GlennCMC70 Jul 30 2014, 06:12 PM

One very important thing as well - caliper guide pins. They gotta be cleaned an lubed often. I did mine every pad change. I also used a very high temp caliper guide pin lube.
If the caliper can't float, it will knock the pistons back.
Hitting curbs will also add tot he knockback.

Posted by: 79T/A Jul 30 2014, 06:36 PM

Sent you a message

Posted by: 2MCHPWR Jul 30 2014, 08:00 PM

is this the yellow car?

Posted by: 2MCHPWR Jul 30 2014, 08:05 PM

just another thing to check. My master cylinder had a leak. test yours. Keep car off. Pump up the brake pedal until its firm and hold it there. Does it go back to the floor eventually?

Posted by: dailydriver Jul 30 2014, 09:07 PM

Did most people in those series stretch 275s over 11" wide wheels??

Posted by: 2MCHPWR Jul 30 2014, 11:46 PM

Posted by: Hookdup Jul 31 2014, 12:54 AM

Yea my shop, shop , my pics,,,
How did you do that??????????
and who were you at NJMP.
I am LOST>>>>>>>>>
I did get 5 good 25 minute sessions with PCA Schattenbaum on Friday.
All good, except for the "PRE-BRAKING" LOTS of pad knockback....

NO speedo, no timer, but seem to remain out front in HPDE 3/4
until I was tired of that and wanted the follow for a while...
Hopefully I will get set up with some sort of timer.
I have used my iphone in the 1LE Camaro, is there anything I may install, that is cost effective?

ps... If I may, how do I post the suspension pics, car , is and was competitive,
although some stuff disappeared over the years, e.g. Carrera coilovers,
still have 2 sets, but not knowing if I need or are they usable.
The rear swaybar is a mystery.
also the front nascar style is as well.

BRING ON THE ARCHIVES , AND PAST EXPERIENCES,
THanks to all

Rich / Captains Outfitters / Ocean Customs

Posted by: Hookdup Jul 31 2014, 01:06 AM

Assuming rumble strips, you are calling curbs.
I am very content as now staying at NJMP as it it is only 45 miles from home,
and proudly an equal opportunity participater, be it, PCA, BMWCCA, NASA, or open track days...
( all this started 17 track days ago , with my 2013 1LE, cause It was too rough to go tuna fishing...
Little did the GF know!!!!!!!!!

Posted by: 79T/A Jul 31 2014, 01:54 AM

Cool car man!

Posted by: trackbird Jul 31 2014, 02:48 AM

That car looks familiar to me. Do you know if it ever ran the "12 hours at the point" at summit point? I remember a very similar car with a Sunoco sticker on the back and possibly the same number. Somewhere I have a pic of it passing a miata. Or I ran across it at Road Atlanta possibly or VIR at an AIX race. It looks familiar to me.

Posted by: Hookdup Jul 31 2014, 01:09 PM

Will check the SCCA and NASA books,
yes, the owner from 02-10', ran at VIR and Summit, I believe was always # 46,
even when originally ran, by MBR Racing, Mike Baughman, in the Motorola/Rolex GT Series 98-02
Then by David Rankin, of WV. in ITE/AIx, ( SP/VIR)

Any info would be great, builds history!!!!!
Got this car, because I did not want to tear up my new Camaro

Posted by: Blainefab Jul 31 2014, 02:03 PM

You should move the accusump holddown clamps to the very ends of the cylinder - the snap ring or threads there can fail, making a big mess. Wrap the clamps around the weak point and you'll be good. Also if the clamps are real tight they could distort the cylinder shape, causing the piston to bind up.

ref: http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/index.php?s=&showtopic=8347&view=findpost&p=88558

Posted by: dailydriver Jul 31 2014, 10:15 PM

I'm guessing that ain't quite street legal anymore (at least not in Joyzee/Pennsy, huh?

Posted by: Hookdup Aug 1 2014, 12:35 AM

Thanks did move them, as I was apprehensive as well, when I moved a bunch of stuff inside, the accusump was moved, to be comfortable for elbow should need be,
also switch panel moved to center,
NASA annual tech had me change braided reinforced hose, as I had a aeroquip 300 series push lok, but they preferred braided ss.
Now since I have a temp annual, I have to disassemble fuel cell to get pic of serial number of bladder,
to coincide with the receipt, which shows less than 5 years old.
is this normal?

Posted by: Hookdup Aug 1 2014, 12:38 AM

Surely NOT,
was purchased to replace, or in lieu of adding additional $ to my 13' 1LE Camaro,
figured
seats, harness bar/cage, harnesses, rims /tires, ( already had trailer)
but then my new car would become a track toy (rat)

Posted by: Blainefab Aug 1 2014, 02:43 AM

The rule used to require metal reinforced hose in the cabin, but was recently changed to just say 'reinforced' in order to allow modern lightweight Kevlar, etc reinforced hoses. A lot of rubber automotive hose has an internal fiber reinforcement, which meets the letter of the rule, but there is no way for tech to verify the reinforcement without cutting your hose, so as a practical matter use an externally reinforced hose.

Physically matching cell marking with the receipt is thorough, not all techs will look for this detail. SOP for me when installing a bladder is to take pics of it, including the expiration date: http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/index.php?s=&showtopic=14181&view=findpost&p=156774

Posted by: dailydriver Aug 1 2014, 11:02 PM

Yes, that IS a smart move, but, IF I were lucky and wealthy enough to get my hands on a 5th gen Z28, it would HAVE TO become a 'track rat', as I would pull (hopefully) over 500 lbs. out of an already somewhat stripped 5th gen, upgrade the brakes even further, and put a full Penske or Moton reservoir, 4 way adjustable, suspension under it, and Racetech containment cf/kevlar chairs in the gutted interior!!

Posted by: 2MCHPWR Aug 2 2014, 01:16 AM

some pics of the beast

Posted by: 2MCHPWR Aug 2 2014, 01:18 AM

Posted by: 2MCHPWR Aug 2 2014, 01:20 AM

Posted by: StanIROCZ Aug 2 2014, 01:48 AM

Looks like a nicely built car!

Posted by: Hookdup Aug 2 2014, 01:58 AM

Thanks,
I will try to reach out to previous Owner in WV, and see if he may have serial number pics.
Good idea to document..
Well with advent of phones and associated....
too bad gets lost in computer files......
We do have ADD, we have an Alternate Driving Disorder


http://www.ponycars.net/images/tempimages/rich/IMG_2654_08-01-2014.jpg
http://www.ponycars.net/images/tempimages/rich/IMG_2652_08-01-2014.jpg
http://www.ponycars.net/images/tempimages/rich/IMG_2643_08-01-2014.jpg

Posted by: dailydriver Aug 2 2014, 07:26 PM

That IS one hardcore front (and rear) sway bar.

I am not a big fan of yellow, but that absolutely is one nicely done ride! :thumb:

Is the e-brake eliminated on EVERY hard core, trailered, CMC and up car??

Posted by: 2MCHPWR Aug 5 2014, 12:10 AM

all pure racecars i've been around have no e- brake because you can't use it when you get off the track. brakes too hot and will stick / melt together.

Posted by: Hookdup Aug 6 2014, 12:05 AM

Really appreciate all the input from everyone,
met a really nice guy looking to build an AI car, here in NJ,
He came up to see, and get some directions.............

Still pending brake issues , and todays findings....

After 5 track sessions, front pads were wooped, contacted wildwood,
said were bp-10 pads, and , as such , would be trashed, but rotor life is wonderful....
Reco'd "h" compound, due to being frugal, WW are substantially less, than the Carbotech XP-12 I installed today,
Checked front hubs, all good,

Question, here come to bias,
the l/r rotor, which was D/a'd prior to track day, still shows sanding marks,
L/r pad is worn barely, r/r is abt 60%
have an issue here with L/r not working, no spongy pedal, just lo9w pedal on first hit.

I need to get this fixed, all input helps..

Currently rear calipers are marked PBR KZ41-046C6
Brackets are marked K332-071c5

Could the pin guide be worn in the brackets?

If anyone has appropriate part number to order , please provide, need to get fixed..

Rotors are currently 11.5 DIa/.8 thick,
If there is an upgrade , please provide...
thx

Posted by: 2MCHPWR Aug 6 2014, 02:59 PM

Did you ever check to see if your master has an internal air leak? with car off, pump up brake pedal and then hold it; does it maintain that height or does it sink back down to firewall?

Aren't BP-10 street pads? The H pads are race pads and will bite much better and withstand the heat much better.
11.5 diameter rotors? those are tiny.
You should get the c5 front brake conversion kit so you can run 13 inch front rotors. I think its a pretty straight forward installation:

http://www.umiperformance.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=7_99&products_id=158

Then get 2 piece rotors from KNS brakes. $250 each rotor/hat combo: https://knsbrakes.com/c/car-series/166_2007+Chevrolet+Corvette+Base+Model/362_KNS+Brakes+4K+Two+Piece+Rotor+with+Gold+Hat+-+Single+Rotor

Have you had the calipers rebuilt? Many do it themselves but I sent mine to Todd at TCE for the rebuild and replaced the pistons with Wilwood thermolock pistons. http://www.tceperformanceproducts.com/

I don't have experience with these 2 items but they seem awesome:
1) Fays watts link: http://www.stranoparts.com/partdetails.php?PartID=306&CategoryID=67&ModelID=7
2) Unbalanced decoupled torque arm: http://www.unbalancedengineering.com/Camaro/TA/

Posted by: 79T/A Aug 6 2014, 03:12 PM

On a side note, the BP10 pads might be the worst pad I have used. No bite and they would fade on a brisk run down a twisty road. Would never judge a cars brakes until the pads are changed.

Posted by: JimMueller Aug 6 2014, 03:28 PM

Where does one obtain those sway bars and matching hardware?!

Posted by: 2MCHPWR Aug 6 2014, 06:33 PM

suggestion:
ditch that seat and get a halo seat
get netting for window and for your right arm.

like now. speaking from experience.

Posted by: FASTFATBOY Aug 6 2014, 07:56 PM

We had this issue on a buddies track car but both his rear brakes were lasting 3x what mine were. He was always complaining of a goofy pedal.

Make sure you don't have a heat source near a brake line boiling the fluid to the rear. Under the drivers seat the rear brake lines run right over the top of the Y pipe and there is supposed to be a heat shield right there.

Also make sure the hard line running down the rear end housing hasn't been crushed or kinked.

Posted by: Hookdup Aug 6 2014, 09:11 PM

Was going to look into watts conversion, but the car has lasted 16 years this way


I am very happy with the performance of the XP10 front / xp8 rear, on my 2013 1LE. only until recently,after 10 or so
Track days, did the fronts start to shudder, may be pad transfer, but they are also down to about 30 percent left,
So they will not pass tech anyway. All total, I think they lasted abt 5000 miles, of which there was between 40-50
20-30 min tracks sessions..
And they do get hot, the silver chevrolet logo on the front calipers, is now gold, and the bright red brembos paint, is now sort of a pretty red metallic crimson color!
So that was why I went with the xp12 on the front of the trans am..
Carbotech, has been great in helping and choosing pad compounds, and provides much more personalized service.



Try schrader for front sway bar, that's the only thing I found,
No picture or info exist anywhere I can find for the rear bar
Also, all the front suspension mounts were cut and relocated supposedly back when the car was built by wheel to wheel
In 1998, and rear may be cambered..


I do have a Simpson c5r r/s cage net installed, although not in pictures
I am looking for a halo seat, do you have any economical reco's?????
And I still have to purchase a HANS device( that will be first)


Will check.

So, I am looking for part numbers or kit for bigger rear rotors, and thicker, same or better per calipers
Or a kit that would work.
After talking to wilwood last evening, they said definitely do not install their rear 4 piston radial kit
On a road course car...
Unless you go to a full floating axle, so I guess that means build some sort of nascar rear, frankensteined, to fit an f body????
Thx all.....

Posted by: 79T/A Aug 6 2014, 09:18 PM

I didn't mean the carbotech pads were bad, in fact I use them and absolutely love their performance. I was referencing the wilwood BP-10 you mentioned. I had a set on my car that came with my calipers and they were absolute garbage, even on the street where they are meant to be used.

Posted by: Hookdup Aug 7 2014, 12:09 AM

Can someone explain advantage of de-coupled torque arm,
and is it required.
All seems good , after 5- 25 minute sessions,
I realize I just learning the car,
and being now an AARP member,
I have figured I drive at around 6 or 7 th's.
I have yet to have an agricultural excursion with either the
Camaro or the trans am
And that is over 18 track days, since last October when all this began.
Figuring 4-5 sessions per day.
I guess I fall under , OVER CAUTIOUS!!!!!!!!!!!!
No, I have never ventured from NJMP, as it is only 50 miles from home,
and I really do not want to travel as yet.
Although I know I should to expand ....

Would love to go to WGI, but try to get by the GF, and tell her I will be gone for 5 days instead of 3 is tough....


As I learn car, should I push to get to maybe 8 10th's????
I am sure capability is there, but I seemingly am a painsy A$$.

Posted by: FASTFATBOY Aug 7 2014, 12:16 AM

These cars have too much brake on the rear to begin with, you don't need anymore.

When you hop on the brakes and you feel like you ran over 50 consecutive railroad tracks running 130 mph you'll know what I mean.

Posted by: Hookdup Aug 7 2014, 12:43 AM

Did that with the Camaro!!!!!!!!!!
Now time for pads on that car,
which I am now using only if I have an event scheduled , with rain in forecast.
Have not made the jump to getting rains for the trans am.
Let alone, I am still running old coded bfg r1's
HArd to swallow 1300 for hoosiers, and a nother 1300 for TOYO rains...

HANS Device (Or if anyone has reco's please advise), and good brakes, then a containment seat , are more important
than going fast....

Speed will come , after safety, reliability , and a piece of mind..........

Car , guess does have capabilities, was dyno tuned at 392RWHP, after
5 pulls,,, rev limiter set to 6600, even though was still making power.
has ls6 , supposedly, based on 243 heads, and a one off Comp cams Xeir LS cam.
Not in catalog, but according to CC, is the most passive xeir lobe profile.
Lost the ram Billet Sfi aluminum fly wheel , and the 6 paddle clutch, when the trans blew up the first day out!

Needless to say it was ultimately my fault,
In a rush to load the car in the trailer, in the rain, the only thing I did not do
was check the trans fluid, as it was supposedly rebuilt by the shop, who the guy I bought it from,,, bought it from...

Was an original MBR Racing case, from Rockland standard gear,,,( THe owner of RSG actually drove this car back in 98-99 in the Motorola/Rolex GT Cup series, according to the original owner)
( Was always #46, originally MBR Racing, Then AIX/ITE at Summit Pt, and VIR, with guy from WV, from 023' to 11')

AND I SNAPPED THE INPUT SHAFT CAUSE IT WAS DRY>>>>>>
I MEAN TRANSMISSION HAD ABSOLUTELY ZERO FLUID IN IT>>>>>>>>>>

Rockland gear was great, sent me a son of tranzilla t56 27spline , with z06 forks and pads,
2 days later,
cheaped out and put an LS7 Chevrolet HP PArts clutch and fly wheel in it and away we go>>>>

LIVE AND LEARN...

Posted by: dailydriver Aug 7 2014, 03:33 PM

Ironically, when I was at a NASA event at Pocono (actual points paying race weekend, not just a track day event) a few years ago, and asked if there were ANY CMC/CMC2, or AI/AIX cars in the region, they all looked at me as if I should be in a straight jacket, and had NO clue what those classes were!!

Hopefully that has, or will be changing in the future.

Posted by: 2MCHPWR Aug 7 2014, 06:02 PM

that is not a good philosophy if improving your car is the goal

Posted by: FASTFATBOY Aug 7 2014, 09:14 PM

Posted by: Hookdup Aug 8 2014, 12:23 AM

Probably misstated..
YES , I will always look to improve the car. Watts is in reality low on the list..

#1 Fix the brake issue!,
after research it turns out the car is equipped with 93-97 LT-1 Rear brakes and calipers.
( goes to statement our current rears are sufficient)
COntacted Wilwood, they said no way should I use their rear setup
Contacted Kore3, they said I could order a c5/or c6 rear setup,
would take about 4-5 weeks, and would require axle removal, as the current
LT1 mounting plate is different than the LS/C5/C6 plate.
THey were very helpful, and honest, and reco'd just get a rebuilt caliper for the left rear.
PBR does no longer manufacture LS calipers, so rebuilds are your only avenue.
Overall very helpful.

#2 HANS ( or other if anyone cares to provide better insight,)
and did I make a mistake by getting 3" Shoulder harness set, and will a HANS device work with 3" shoulders"

#3 Learn chassis setup, tweak sway bars, tire pressures, ride height, and corner balance...

#4 Support daily track day consumables, visit other tracks, find a good group of friends
with the same interests, ( surely appreciate everyone here's input")

#5 Now spend $ for .10 sec improvements...

Posted by: Blainefab Aug 8 2014, 03:14 AM

The 94-97 rear brakes are the best rears for the 4th gen - the builder probably replaced the 98-02 brakes because they are heavier, and if the Pbrake drum is left in place it can seize up.
Get a set of Centric remans, and Centric rotors, all 94-97. Your backing plates have been changed to accept the early brakes, don't try to put late stuff on it. The early calipers had a weight attached to them for NVH, the remans will not have the weight - don't worry about it, we toss the weights anyway. Make sure you get the 94-97 pads - 93 are different.

If you go with C6 front brakes get the Trackbracket package from Hotpart, it's better than the others. Use plain Centric base C6 rotors.

HANS will work with the 3" wide harness, tho 2" fit better, both lap and shoulder. Look at the Schroth Profi II HANS - my standard rec.

Halo seats - Racetech RT4009HR, or the wide model, if you have the budget. Kirkey K68 or K45 fit a more modest budget.