New guy building a car, advise desired Options

[SS Performance]

Hi all, I'm new to this site. I have been involved in racing and the performance world for many years. However I have never built a car for road racing.

I'm not familiar with all the terms used so be patient with my lack of knowledge.

I recently purchased a 02 Camaro Z28 with no drive train or suspension, no K-member, a-arms, struts, rack, rear end, panhard bar, or sway bars.

So I have a blank sheet of paper.

My intent is to build a car for open road racing, Silver State, Big Bend, Sand Hills, etc. And I would love to do Pike's Peak.

I have purchased some parts already, and I have some parts left from other projects.

I Know for SOLO or track days horse power is not always a benefit but for open road it should be helpful (I think not sure).

Anyway here is what I have, 02 Camaro with Chrome moly 8 point cage. Should I take it out and switch to mild steel? I have never been a fan of chrome moly.
The cage is not fully welded yet so removal would be easy.

Moser 9-inch with back brace, 35 spline axels, wave trac dif, 3.90 gears adjustable torque arm.

Wilwood 13inch brakes 6 piston front 4 piston rear.

4L80E trans

Choice of several possible engines LS1, LQ4, LS2 (resleeved to 4.155 bore)

Bilstein race shocks w/ 1000# front and 400# rear springs and rear adjusters (purchased used from a member here)

I'm not a fan of aftermarket K-members so I intend to locate a stock one.

Since I don't have a panhard bar I was thinking about going with a watt's link.

So here are my questions;

Should I go with stock A-arms or aftermarket? If aftermarket who's and why?

What rack and power steering pump?

What sway bars?

What size wheels? I was thinking about the ZO6 18X10.5

What size & type of tires?

I know it's a ton of questions and hope I didn't over whelm or break any site rules.

Thanks
Craig

[Midnight02]

Welcome to the site. You already have a good start to the process.

The big question is what does your budget look like? Are you leaning more towards budget build (willing to get the most out of limited budget with the understanding there may be a slight performance trade off) vs. max effort track build where saving a few bucks here and there isn't as important?

A few general thoughts:

1. Bunch of good motor options, however an LS1 laying down roughly 400 to the wheels makes for a good powerplant. Whatever direction you go, stick with the aluminum blocks because the extra 70+ lbs you get from an iron block is a lot of extra weight to deal with up front.

2. Going with a watts link should be money well spent.

3. The stock K-members are great. Another idea would be to get one from a convertible donor car -- those are well regarded for their strength and durability.

4. The OEM C5 Z06 wheels (Speedlines or Alcoas) are great options for track wheels. They're lightweight, cheap and come in sizes where it's easy to find good tires. Most on the site run a "square" setup to help with the balance of the car.....you could go with either 4 of the 17 x 9.5" C5 Z06 fronts, or (arguably more ideal) four 18" x 10.5" C5 Z06 rears.

5. The Strano 35/22(adjustable rear) sway bar combo is a well-paired set and represents a great improvement over the stock bars. If you're looking to save some cash here, a set of OEM 1LE bars would also be great on track.

6. The Wilwood brakes are a quality setup, however I would be interested to hear others thoughts about the rears in your kit. Most of us fight with wheel hop issues anytime there's too much "brake" in the rear. I'm still running the stock LS1 brakes with Hawks DTC-60 fronts and HP+ rears on track and the HP+ on the rear is still probably too much.

7. Are you planning to stick with the auto trans or swapping to a manual? T

This post has been edited by Midnight02: Jun 5 2014, 03:13 AM

[SS Performance]

I do have a budget and want to spend wisely, I can't afford to do it twice.

I have been looking at the 18X10.5 wheels but am confused when I look at various sites. Not sure who's wheel they are. If anyone could recommend where to purchase I would appreciate it.

I hadn't heard the convertible K was different, I'll start looking for one.

I will most likely stay with the 4L80 to save money. I will look for a paddle shifter set up for it going manual valve body. I'm still looking for info on paddle shifters.

I will stick with the Wilwood's, I have a proportioning valve so I can dial down the rears.

Should I go with stock A-arms or go with aftermarket adjustable?

I just want to make sure everything works together.

Thanks
Craig

[trackbird]

The convertible K member has some little angle braces that stiffen it up slightly. If you fall into one, you might use it. Otherwise, I'd just run a regular one.

There are a few ways to build such a car. I've done most of mine "wrong" (they take forever and cost too much). I'd look at "cheap and effective". Meaning, if it works (well/very well/plenty well enough) and gets you driving it....do it.

I'd get a stock K member, come up with a running engine with an aluminum block and sell off the 4L80 for a 6 speed manual (or at least a built 4L60e...it drops in and they have been run in open road racing).

I'd buy a set of 17x9 or 17x9.5" wheels and stuff them with 275/40-17's. Why? Those wheels are cheap. I have 4 sets of C4 "saw blades" in my garage right now (and I have about $300 in all of them, maybe less). Tires are still inexpensive (though some of the race tire sizes are getting harder to find, you can run track days on performance tires and get the car on the road, keep the wheels for rains when you're done with them and move up).

Stock front control arms, a good PHB (they are $125) and stock rear LCA's will do it for quite a while (I won an SCCA championship in my local region using stock LCA's with factory bushings and a completely built suspension).

The 4L80/paddle shifter thing is likely going to take lots of fab time and not make the car any faster. I always felt like autos were harder to drive as well (rev matching on a downshift, etc). I don't know what the budget is for this project, but expect to "double it" and take at least twice as long as you expect (my Corvette has been apart for 1.5 years...for an "engine swap" and basic refresh). One of the guys here has a rather fast 3rd gen and he's a budget racer that's fantastic at scrounging the salvage yards. He's built a really fast, really capable car for pennies on the dollar (compared to my old 3rd gen project). And, he's having just as much fun with it. I'll suggest sourcing as much salvage yard stuff as you can (that you can use, like the K member, a arms, etc) and trying to get the car assembled and moving under its own power. Once it's moving, you can upgrade/tweak things but there's incentive there instead of just throwing money at a lump of metal in the garage. I'm a big believer in "light at the end of the tunnel".

I'm not telling you to cheat or cheap out. Just that you can build an economical car that's very fast without buying $1,500 in wheels and a paddle shifted automatic gearbox. If those things are what you dream of...then build it. But get the car on a path to getting it assembled and running/driving and tune up the rest as you go.

This is just based on my experience doing things the hard/expensive way.


Here's lesson one (look at the dates and times as you go through the thread):

http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/index.php?showtopic=9864

And lesson two:

http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/index.php?showtopic=15636

[nape]

I'd find a waxer to buy the 13" rear brakes and put stock ones on it. There isn't any advantage to upgraded rear brakes short of cutting weight.

The 9" sounds like a sell too. The way it's setup, sounds like it was built for a drag car. Find a drag racer with a handful of cash and sell it if it's a typical Moser (straight roller bearing instead of tapered, no need for 35spl axles, too high gear ratio, build heavy, etc). Same with the 4L80E.

Watts is another part that you won't need unless you like the idea of telling people you have a Watts. You can get 95% of the performance of a Watts with a PHB assuming it's setup correctly.

Looking at the parts list, I'd guess you bought someone's 8-9 second parts list that they ran out of time and money on.

What is your ultimate goal (140/160/180/Unlimited)? That will determine parts recommendations. Safety equipment is a huge part of the budget that most people don't initially think about. Figure anywhere between $2000-10000 depending on how fast you want to go and who builds it (Cage, two suits/gloves/socks/shoes/helmets/HANS, two seats, two belts, extinguisher/fire system, etc).

[CrashTestDummy]

If you're just looking to have fun with a car, and fun with a build, go for the list you have. If you want to be competitive in some racing series, then you really need to pick your venue and review the rules. You can quickly add the wrong mod and be uncompetitive with your budget build. Some series may also have specific requirements for the roll cage that probably aren't addressed with a 8-point.

I'd also think twice about the 4L80 with paddle shifters in a budget build, unless you really want the 'gee whiz' factor. I bet after the trans build, manual valve body and paddle shifter fab, you've bought a built T56 and clutch configuration with money to spare. I'm not trying to talk you out of an auto, we drive one in our Firebird and reallly enjoy it, just the particular choice of transmissions/shifters.

On paper that looks like a fun C Prepared solo car, or DE car. Don't forget to post up pictures of the WIP. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/2thumbs.gif)

[SS Performance]

Thank you all for your input.

As far as the parts I have some are from my own drag racing and some are left over from my other car which is a street/strip car. Also I collect parts.

I also have a 4L60 and a Moser 12 bolt in the shop. The 9 inch has tapered bearings, the 12 bolt is apart but I have roller bearings for it (I am ordering tapered I don't like roller).

I have an extra set of Metco billet aluminum rear lower control arms I was planning to use.

I think I would like to shoot for the 180 class eventually.

As far as safety equipment I have a couple of Firefox systems that I would need to get recertified. I also have a couple of Scat seats.

[matt f]

Craig,

I responded to your question regarding wheels. I have a bunch of suspension parts in a garage I have rented that I got with the car I bought. If you want to see a well set up car, you should come look at mine. Podiumed at natiionals in ESP. It could give you some good ideas for your build.

I'm about 2 hours from you, northwest of Valley Forge.

my email

mattftoo
at
comcast
dot
net

[SS Performance]

I LOVE THIS SITE!!!!!!!!!

I have done some searching & surfing and found some great info!

Some of the discussions are over my head bt I get the general drift of most of them.

Found some posts by Alan Blaine and contacted him. Great guy very helpful.

[FASTFATBOY]

Cheapest way to have a bunch of fun?

Stock LS1 with oil pan baffle, headers and exhaust.

Weight reduction

Roto joint, Delrin or Heim ended joints in the rear.

Stock 10 bolt, 3.42 gear

Stock six speed with a LS6 clutch(Autozone replacement)

Strano springs

Stock WS6/SS sway bars (32/19)

Koni SA shocks

Good seats and belts

Stock stuff up front with Moog bushings, slot the lower control arms.

Corvette C6 base front brakes with Blaine cooling ducts, stock rear brakes.

Power steering cooler.

17x9.5 GM wheels all the way around.


The above setup is a very good starting point, you won't need to change anything maybe ever. Learn to drive it and it will be pretty darn quick.

Remember, the drag race mentality of spending money on power makes you faster does not apply in this realm. Using 105% of what you have does.

[Crazy Canuck]

should consider the UMI K-member w/ extra RR bracing vs stock.
I'd also vote for a manual Tranny... PPG gears if budget allows.
Also have a chat w/ Jason @ UnbalancedEngineering for suspension.

[Hookdup]

Good to meet you today craig,
Hope the look at the transam helped you out.
any pics you need , please reach out....

Maybe you could build a modern day TWIN>>>>>>>>

( and provide me with a source for overcoming my issues!!!

[SS Performance]

Good meeting you as well.

Let me know when yo are heading to the track.

[Racerdad916]

Nape and Kevin are dead on.... fast for cheap can be done if you are patient... the 12 bolt is faster but the 9" is stronger. If you have to use an Auto, a 4L60 can be built to live with 500rwhp in a non-drag race world. The key to "fast for cheap" is understanding "mechanical sympathy", meaning you understand where the weak points of the cars are and drive accordingly (i.e no high RPM launches etc) I'm making big HP on stock axles and a 7.5 28 spline diff. The key is how you drive. I don't stand on it unless the car is already moving to lower driveline shock. I built mine from a shell, and, I don't think I'd do it again, unless I already had something to flog on. 5 years is a long time to wait to have a fun car, but it can be done. The junk yards can be a great source for cheap parts, as well as ebay and craigslist. You just need to know what to look for... if you have questions, just ask. The members here are a wealth of knowledge, and many are racers....

[CrashTestDummy]

Indeed. Building a race car from a 'body in white' is the expensive way to go, unless you'll be fabbing most of the parts yourself. A LOT of factory parts can be used/repurposed/put temporarily in place from a fully-functioning car so you can enjoy it while you mold it into the car you want.

Probably the cheapest way to 'build' a race car is to find someone's abandoned project. Those go for pennies on the dollar, and will usually have the big expensive parts already in the tub, although it is the nickle-and-time bits that people don't think of that really kill the budget.

[SS Performance]

I appreciate everyones input, it is all helpful.

The body I have was a drag racer project. He stripped it, installed a chromoly cage and bailed.

I got it stupid cheap. It came with all the interior parts and harnesses in boxes. I am going to cut the cage out. I should be able to sell the interior parts, harnesses, & cage for more than I paid for the body.

I have picked up a stock front suspension. I'm talking to Alan Blaine & Jason Swindle about suspension and other stuff, as well as some of the folks on here. Great guys all.

I have decided to not go with an auto trans. I'll try to find a used 5 speed, Jerico or something similar.

I purchased a set of 17X11 CCW's from a member on here.

I have a Moser 12 bolt as well as a Moser 9 inch.

I was leaning towards the 9 inch mainly so I could swap gears depending upon what type of racing I was doing. Also the 12 bolt has ball bearing axel bearings. From what Moser told me the axels are a different diameter depending upon which bearing is used.

Because I live on the east coast I was thinking about building the car to be legal for NASA AIX to get some seat time and then going to the ORR events as I can.

Motor wise I am planning to use the resleeved LS2 block. I can stroke it to 440 ci with no problem. I have a set of LS7 heads & intake that I intend to use. I also have extra ECM's and engine harnesses, so I will stay EFI.

[Racerdad916]

I'd keep the 9" and sell the 12 bolt to fund the project.
Good call on the cage.
The Jerico is stout, and with the 440, you'll need it. The Super 10 clone is also a good choice. I have an M22 clone with the 27 spline out put instead of the 30 spline. If you go with Muncie, make sure you get the roller bearing first gear. A T56 will live with your combo with some updates.....
If you have trans/diff questions, PM me...

[SS Performance]

I'd keep the 9" and sell the 12 bolt to fund the project.
Good call on the cage.
The Jerico is stout, and with the 440, you'll need it. The Super 10 clone is also a good choice. I have an M22 clone with the 27 spline out put instead of the 30 spline. If you go with Muncie, make sure you get the roller bearing first gear. A T56 will live with your combo with some updates.....
If you have trans/diff questions, PM me...

Actually I will use the 12 bolt in another build I'm working on.

I'll keep you in mind when I'm ready for a trans.

Thanks
Craig