Can a LT1 car be Nationally competitive? Options

[tjZ28]

****************************************************

So that brings me back to my actual question: can a LT1 Fbody be Nationally Competitive in ESP?

Let’s face it even with every ESP legal motor mod a LT1 is only going to do maybe 275RWHP. LS1 cars are doing 290-320 RWHP STOCK and with the full array of ESP legal motor mods can put down probably 350RWHP. I’ve heard of a few ESP cars that claim 400RWHP ESP legal, but frankly I don’t buy that (I’ve been around the LS1 community a long time and outside of this particular car/driver’s claim I’ve never seen a bolt-on LS1 make those kind of numbers).

On top of that a LT1 car is probably an extra 100lbs nose-heavy.

So, what do you all think: Can a LT1 still be Nationally Competitive in ESP, obviously excluding the driver issue? (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

-TJ

This post has been edited by tjZ28: Apr 21 2008, 08:36 PM

[TOO Z MAXX]

Well I would say yes, but I am biased because I would like to see you out there running with us. We do have a very good group running now. Me , Andy, Bill{he bought Larry Bakers old 98 1LE and former National champ) and a few Mustang guys that are getting very fast. So just do it.

[slowTA]

With all the money you're making you might want to take a look at the grassroots $2008 challenge! It isn't the most serious game out there, but you'll get in a magazine and have a few laughs.

[trackbird]

With all the money you're making you might want to take a look at the grassroots $2008 challenge! It isn't the most serious game out there, but you'll get in a magazine and have a few laughs.

Then they'll get claimed..... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)

[tjZ28]

Well I would say yes, but I am biased because I would like to see you out there running with us. We do have a very good group running now. Me , Andy, Bill{he bought Larry Bakers old 98 1LE and former National champ) and a few Mustang guys that are getting very fast. So just do it.

Yeah, the local ESP field is very fast and competative, it really would help my driving to have a challenge like that. And it'd probably be a good change for me to be 50-100RWHP down instead of 50-100RWHP up on everybody. Or I could be like Scott Fraser and drive a Miata to get faster...


...naaaaaaaaaaaaaaah.

With all the money you're making you might want to take a look at the grassroots $2008 challenge! It isn't the most serious game out there, but you'll get in a magazine and have a few laughs.

Hmm, that's a thought I hadn't had yet. Though I'm not sure exactly how they do the accounting. I mean, when I tell them I got a very clean '97 Z28 for -$2000 (assuming I sell the TA for a decent price) I think they'd send me packing. If they allowed it though that'd give me $4008 to mod under the $2008 rule. Hehe.

-TJ

[z28jeff]

Is the car already too modded for F-Stock? If not, FS is way cheaper to run than ESP, and a very competitive class. And since all FS f-bods are forced to stick with the stock 16x8 rims, the extra 50hp isn't helping the LS1's that much. LT1 cars are competive in f-stock. Hell, 3rd gens are still winning National Tours, so it's anybodies game. And after checking the results from this weekend's prosolo in DC where an LT1 car finished 2nd in ESP, I'd say they're competitive in ESP too.

[pknowles]

Yes LT1's are very competitive. The LS1 cars make more peak Hp, but it's from about 5300-6000 rpm. There are not many courses that you get to rev that high in 2nd and even when you do it's for a very short time. So all the extra hp means nothing if you don't spend a lot of time in that rev range. As far as SCCA classing the LT1 in ESP can use the 93 trans which has deeper gearing then all the other years. So the LT1 actually has an advantage that the LS1 cars can't get because the 93 trans won't bolt up behind an LS1 in ESP legal ways.

And after checking the results from this weekend's prosolo in DC where an LT1 car finished 2nd in ESP, I'd say they're competitive in ESP too.

SCCA got those results up fast. Actually I hadn't even left the site yet at the time of Jeff's post. I just got home from the DC Pro and my car is still on the trailer with all the stuff in the truck. I'm hoping I get motivated to take the car off the trailer tonight, but the AC in the house is so nice after all the heat and sun we got today.

[BigEnos]

Yes. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/cool2.gif)

The trans makes a big difference and I was not losing a thing in the first 200' at the prosolo this weekend to the LS1 cars I launched against. I don't buy that an LT1 car is 100lbs heavier than an LS1 car on the nose. My car made 265hp at the wheels stock, and I know I've picked up tons from the y-pipe, bolt-ons, and Jeff Creech tune. There's more to be had, but Sam has hopped in my car and out run his times in his two-time national championship car. So is more power going to be better or just different???

This post has been edited by BigEnos: Jun 25 2007, 12:55 AM

[tjZ28]

Is the car already too modded for F-Stock? If not, FS is way cheaper to run than ESP, and a very competitive class. And since all FS f-bods are forced to stick with the stock 16x8 rims, the extra 50hp isn't helping the LS1's that much. LT1 cars are competive in f-stock. Hell, 3rd gens are still winning National Tours, so it's anybodies game. And after checking the results from this weekend's prosolo in DC where an LT1 car finished 2nd in ESP, I'd say they're competitive in ESP too.

The car is stock right now, so I could easily go FStock with it. However, I'd really rather not go from a 450RWHP Z06 w/ a good susp. setup, great brakes, 315 front/335 rear Hoosier A6s etc. "down" to a stock 4th Gen. Fbody on 245s or 265s. Also, I don't think there's a lot of top-notch competition locally in FStock. In ESP I can look forward to getting beat down by some National level drivers... and I think that really could help my driving progress.

Yes LT1's are very competitive. The LS1 cars make more peak Hp, but it's from about 5300-6000 rpm. There are not many courses that you get to rev that high in 2nd and even when you do it's for a very short time. So all the extra hp means nothing if you don't spend a lot of time in that rev range. As far as SCCA classing the LT1 in ESP can use the 93 trans which has deeper gearing then all the other years. So the LT1 actually has an advantage that the LS1 cars can't get because the 93 trans won't bolt up behind an LS1 in ESP legal ways.

The series I run the most getting to the top of 2nd is very common actually. Besides, I've always argued that the whole "LT1s make more low end power" thing is just an urban legend. If you look at a (stock, or similarly modded) LT1 graph vs. LS1 graph clearly the LS1 makes more power up top. But really they make just as much power down low... they just don't run out of breath so they keep building more power past ~5k rpm where the LT1s start to level off. My '99 Z28 dynoed 300/310 RWHP/RWTQ stock. I don't think there's a lot of stock LT1s doing more than 310 RWTQ and I didn't even have a '01+ with the better intake etc.

But I think you're right, the '93 trans gearing could make up pretty much all of the difference.

And after checking the results from this weekend's prosolo in DC where an LT1 car finished 2nd in ESP, I'd say they're competitive in ESP too.

Interesting to know.

Yes. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/cool2.gif)

The trans makes a big difference and I was not losing a thing in the first 200' at the prosolo this weekend to the LS1 cars I launched against. I don't buy that an LT1 car is 100lbs heavier than an LS1 car on the nose. My car made 265hp at the wheels stock, and I know I've picked up tons from the y-pipe, bolt-ons, and Jeff Creech tune. There's more to be had, but Sam has hopped in my car and out run his times in his two-time national championship car. So is more power going to be better or just different???

I don't have the #s in front of me, but the Iron LT1 block is a lot heavier than the AL LS1 block. Further the LS1 has the much lighter composite intake manifold. Is it exactly 100lbs? Probably not, but I think it's pretty close.

I do appreciate the input though, it sounds like LT1 cars can be competative.

Oh, and it is legal to update to LS1 front brakes, correct?

-TJ

This post has been edited by tjZ28: Jun 26 2007, 04:55 AM

[Mojave]

Oh, and it is legal to update to LS1 front brakes, correct?

-TJ

In ESP, yes.

[SStrokerAce]

I've always argued that the whole "LT1s make more low end power" thing is just an urban legend. If you look at a (stock, or similarly modded) LT1 graph vs. LS1 graph clearly the LS1 makes more power up top. But really they make just as much power down low... they just don't run out of breath so they keep building more power past ~5k rpm where the LT1s start to level off.

Yep I have two dyno charts of a stock LS1 car here and a lightly modded LT1 car (Programing, 1.6's, Springs, CAI, Shorty Headers) and they are almost identical in the low end, the LS1 just builds TQ quicker and to a higher amount. The LS1 cars will nose over at 5200rpm with stock valve springs in there.

FWIW I have a customer with a LS1 car, stock untouched heads, new springs and pushrods, LS6 intake headers and a mail order tune PLUS a 9" and he put down 350rwhp+ with that. A LS motor with attention to detail and some TLC built legally to ESP rules could easily make over 400rwhp, a LT couldn't do that in a long shot. A standard CAI, Tuning, Headers LT car can do 300, 320rwhp at the most. Maybe 350-360 with a motor that was built to a T within the rules.

Bret

[BigEnos]

I've always argued that the whole "LT1s make more low end power" thing is just an urban legend. If you look at a (stock, or similarly modded) LT1 graph vs. LS1 graph clearly the LS1 makes more power up top. But really they make just as much power down low... they just don't run out of breath so they keep building more power past ~5k rpm where the LT1s start to level off.

Yep I have two dyno charts of a stock LS1 car here and a lightly modded LT1 car (Programing, 1.6's, Springs, CAI, Shorty Headers) and they are almost identical in the low end, the LS1 just builds TQ quicker and to a higher amount. The LS1 cars will nose over at 5200rpm with stock valve springs in there.

FWIW I have a customer with a LS1 car, stock untouched heads, new springs and pushrods, LS6 intake headers and a mail order tune PLUS a 9" and he put down 350rwhp+ with that. A LS motor with attention to detail and some TLC built legally to ESP rules could easily make over 400rwhp, a LT couldn't do that in a long shot. A standard CAI, Tuning, Headers LT car can do 300, 320rwhp at the most. Maybe 350-360 with a motor that was built to a T within the rules.

Bret

Take those 1.6 rockers out. That'll help. Ran them in my car for a while with a CAI and u/d pulley and it sucked. More HP at the very top and it was a dog everywhere else. Really fell flat on the bottom. I didn't have programming at the time, but bone stock my car was over 300lb ft from under 2k rpm to over 4K with a peak of ~315. Was on a dynojet, fwiw, and was when the car was in f-stock trim and had a crappy crossflow flowmaster.

[Racer X]

The others have pretty much taken care of you but I thought I'd add my own thoughts....

Let’s face it even with every ESP legal motor mod a LT1 is only going to do maybe 275RWHP.

My car with only a cat back exhaust and CAI put down 267 hp / 305 tq on a dynojet. This was at 97K miles with the factory original cat converters, stock manifolds, factory original Opti and stock tune. I don't have a problem believing that 300+ ESP legal rwhp is very attainable in an LT1.

On top of that a LT1 car is probably an extra 100lbs nose-heavy.

They are heavier to be sure, but it's more on the order of 50 - 60 lbs at most. In any event, my '96 weighs almost exactly the same as my brother's '99.

Oh, and it is legal to update to LS1 front brakes, correct?

Yup and you'll wonder why you didn't do it sooner.

This post has been edited by Racer X: Jun 26 2007, 09:37 PM

[ESPCamaro]

without question.

Sell both cars, track down Sam, buy my old car, and swap in a 93 trans.

LT1's have more potential to be light than an LS1 car. The LS1 'may' be lighter but not necessarily. I've yet to see proof with my own two eyes. The cars are basically exactly the same. Which tells me IF the LS1 is lighter then the change in bodywork makes up for that.

That car I sold had MAD, MAD, MAD torque. I think Phil and Brian remember in Oscoda a couple years back how bad my wheel hop was off the line, and I'd still pull 1.9 60's. Rolling into the throttle and "launching" at idle. The tune, or something made it peter out big time past 5500 but man would it pull down low.

[wdtiger]

FWIW I have a customer with a LS1 car, stock untouched heads, new springs and pushrods, LS6 intake headers and a mail order tune PLUS a 9" and he put down 350rwhp+ with that. A LS motor with attention to detail and some TLC built legally to ESP rules could easily make over 400rwhp, a LT couldn't do that in a long shot. A standard CAI, Tuning, Headers LT car can do 300, 320rwhp at the most. Maybe 350-360 with a motor that was built to a T within the rules.

This i'm curious about. What all can be done within ESP rules? I know lid, headers, cat back. I guess i never really read the rules much as far as engine mods were concerned...

[patred]

without question.

Sell both cars, track down Sam, buy my old car, and swap in a 93 trans.

LT1's have more potential to be light than an LS1 car. The LS1 'may' be lighter but not necessarily. I've yet to see proof with my own two eyes. The cars are basically exactly the same. Which tells me IF the LS1 is lighter then the change in bodywork makes up for that.

That car I sold had MAD, MAD, MAD torque. I think Phil and Brian remember in Oscoda a couple years back how bad my wheel hop was off the line, and I'd still pull 1.9 60's. Rolling into the throttle and "launching" at idle. The tune, or something made it peter out big time past 5500 but man would it pull down low.

Yeah if Lonnie's old car is around for sale, buy that. Especially if it's for sale anywhere close to what Lonnie sold it for. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Pat

[patred]

This i'm curious about. What all can be done within ESP rules? I know lid, headers, cat back. I guess i never really read the rules much as far as engine mods were concerned...

You can't really do a whole lot inside the engine. Anything outside the engine is pretty open (intake manifold, headers, etc). The SCCA rulebook can be downloaded for free from scca.com.

Pat

[sgarnett]

Heck, Pat, I wish I had your old car for anywhere close to what you sold it for (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I didn't have the cash then, and don't now, but it's on my "why didn't I" list.

[pknowles]

FWIW I have a customer with a LS1 car, stock untouched heads, new springs and pushrods, LS6 intake headers and a mail order tune PLUS a 9" and he put down 350rwhp+ with that. A LS motor with attention to detail and some TLC built legally to ESP rules could easily make over 400rwhp, a LT couldn't do that in a long shot. A standard CAI, Tuning, Headers LT car can do 300, 320rwhp at the most. Maybe 350-360 with a motor that was built to a T within the rules.

This i'm curious about. What all can be done within ESP rules? I know lid, headers, cat back. I guess i never really read the rules much as far as engine mods were concerned...

I think if you take advantage of the rebuild allowances in the rulebook you can pick up some more HP. Your allowed to bore to .0472" to gain a about 8 more cubies, mill the heads to max GM spec or .010" (whichever is greater) to up the compression ratio, port match the intake and heads within the first inch of the head, find the lightest factory pistons and rods, match heavy rod to lightest piston, etc. You can defiantly make more power using all these allowances, but it's a lot of money for those last few HP and torque numbers. It only makes a difference if your at full throttle and how much time do you spend at full throttle autocrossing? The really fast guys don't seem to spend much time at all at full throttle at less in Fbodies. I think this is much more important on a real race track were you do spend a lot of time with your foot to the floor. If I popped my factory motor I would probably take advantage of some of these things to make more power while I was in there, but I just can't see dumping $4-6k (total guess, maybe more) for 10-15ish HP (another guess and it might be less). Depends on how much that last .100 of a second is worth to you.

Autocrossing for the most part is not a power game on most courses, not that more power can't help. The fact that a CSP Miata is usually a second or less behind an ASP Z06 indicates to me that it's not a power game as much as a suspension and tire game, IMHO of course.

[BigEnos]

FWIW I have a customer with a LS1 car, stock untouched heads, new springs and pushrods, LS6 intake headers and a mail order tune PLUS a 9" and he put down 350rwhp+ with that. A LS motor with attention to detail and some TLC built legally to ESP rules could easily make over 400rwhp, a LT couldn't do that in a long shot. A standard CAI, Tuning, Headers LT car can do 300, 320rwhp at the most. Maybe 350-360 with a motor that was built to a T within the rules.

This i'm curious about. What all can be done within ESP rules? I know lid, headers, cat back. I guess i never really read the rules much as far as engine mods were concerned...

I think if you take advantage of the rebuild allowances in the rulebook you can pick up some more HP. Your allowed to bore to .0472" to gain a about 8 more cubies, mill the heads to max GM spec or .010" (whichever is greater) to up the compression ratio, port match the intake and heads within the first inch of the head, find the lightest factory pistons and rods, match heavy rod to lightest piston, etc. You can defiantly make more power using all these allowances, but it's a lot of money for those last few HP and torque numbers. It only makes a difference if your at full throttle and how much time do you spend at full throttle autocrossing? The really fast guys don't seem to spend much time at all at full throttle at less in Fbodies. I think this is much more important on a real race track were you do spend a lot of time with your foot to the floor. If I popped my factory motor I would probably take advantage of some of these things to make more power while I was in there, but I just can't see dumping $4-6k (total guess, maybe more) for 10-15ish HP (another guess and it might be less). Depends on how much that last .100 of a second is worth to you.

Autocrossing for the most part is not a power game on most courses, not that more power can't help. The fact that a CSP Miata is usually a second or less behind an ASP Z06 indicates to me that it's not a power game as much as a suspension and tire game, IMHO of course.

Don't forget about the Impala SS head gasket! Worth a little compression ratio (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)

You can also spend that $6K and build a from-scratch LT4. Then you'll have better trans ratios *and* way more power than an LS1 (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/nutkick.gif) Not that you'll be able to use all of it. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rant2.gif)

Another thing I notice about autocrossing, with lots of courses with tons of transitions it becomes a "width" game. This is why Miatae and E36s excel more even than the sum of their parts. They just don't have to turn as much. We are solidly on the other end of that scale.