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> SO WHAT HAS CHANGED??
landstuhltaylor
post Sep 14 2018, 03:21 PM
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QUOTE (ESPCamaro @ Sep 14 2018, 09:37 AM) *
QUOTE (trackbird @ Sep 14 2018, 05:06 AM) *
QUOTE (ESPCamaro @ Sep 13 2018, 11:43 PM) *
What is an M29?

The mustang runs without a backseat because of an update/backdate allowance


The M29 was a T56 that had gearing that was "shorter" (similar to the C5 Z06 instead of the standard T56, but I believe it was slightly different gearing). It has a lower torque rating, but more "gear".

1993 Camaro/Firebird w/2.73 final drive "M28" 350ft lbs 3.36:1 2.07:1 1.35:1 1.00:1 0.80:1 0.62:1 reverse 3.28:1
1993 Camaro/Firebird w/3.23 final drive "M29" 400ft lbs 2.97:1 2.07:1 1.43:1 1.00:1 0.80:1 0.62:1 reverse 3.28:1
1998 Camaro/Firebird 450ft lbs 2.66:1 1.78:1 1.30:1 1.00:1 0.74:1 0.50:1 reverse 2.90:1

More info here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borg-Warner_T-56_transmission


Right but that only works with an LT1/LT4


There are ways
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ESPCamaro
post Sep 14 2018, 06:14 PM
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QUOTE (landstuhltaylor @ Sep 14 2018, 09:21 AM) *
QUOTE (ESPCamaro @ Sep 14 2018, 09:37 AM) *
QUOTE (trackbird @ Sep 14 2018, 05:06 AM) *
QUOTE (ESPCamaro @ Sep 13 2018, 11:43 PM) *
What is an M29?

The mustang runs without a backseat because of an update/backdate allowance


The M29 was a T56 that had gearing that was "shorter" (similar to the C5 Z06 instead of the standard T56, but I believe it was slightly different gearing). It has a lower torque rating, but more "gear".

1993 Camaro/Firebird w/2.73 final drive "M28" 350ft lbs 3.36:1 2.07:1 1.35:1 1.00:1 0.80:1 0.62:1 reverse 3.28:1
1993 Camaro/Firebird w/3.23 final drive "M29" 400ft lbs 2.97:1 2.07:1 1.43:1 1.00:1 0.80:1 0.62:1 reverse 3.28:1
1998 Camaro/Firebird 450ft lbs 2.66:1 1.78:1 1.30:1 1.00:1 0.74:1 0.50:1 reverse 2.90:1

More info here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borg-Warner_T-56_transmission


Right but that only works with an LT1/LT4


There are ways


Not without doing work to the trans that is illegal in ESP
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ESPCamaro
post Sep 14 2018, 06:16 PM
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Or maybe there is something else
Idk.
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SuperMacGuy
post Sep 15 2018, 12:48 AM
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You could get a trans rebuild and spec the other gears. Externally it would look the same. I have a rebuild TR6060 and I could have gotten the lower gears; but I kept the stock ratios. I guess you can get a good launch with the lower gears, usually good, but maybe you need to hit 3rd gear for a very fast course. At my region's airstrip location, I still don't even get to 3rd gear, but at top of 2nd a lot, but not sure that on slicks I'd need much more actual speed for Autocross.
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ESPCamaro
post Sep 15 2018, 11:38 AM
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QUOTE (SuperMacGuy @ Sep 14 2018, 06:48 PM) *
You could get a trans rebuild and spec the other gears. Externally it would look the same. I have a rebuild TR6060 and I could have gotten the lower gears; but I kept the stock ratios. I guess you can get a good launch with the lower gears, usually good, but maybe you need to hit 3rd gear for a very fast course. At my region's airstrip location, I still don't even get to 3rd gear, but at top of 2nd a lot, but not sure that on slicks I'd need much more actual speed for Autocross.



Which would be blatant cheating
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CrashTestDummy
post Sep 15 2018, 09:10 PM
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QUOTE (ESPCamaro @ Sep 15 2018, 06:38 AM) *
QUOTE (SuperMacGuy @ Sep 14 2018, 06:48 PM) *
You could get a trans rebuild and spec the other gears. Externally it would look the same. I have a rebuild TR6060 and I could have gotten the lower gears; but I kept the stock ratios. I guess you can get a good launch with the lower gears, usually good, but maybe you need to hit 3rd gear for a very fast course. At my region's airstrip location, I still don't even get to 3rd gear, but at top of 2nd a lot, but not sure that on slicks I'd need much more actual speed for Autocross.



Which would be blatant cheating


Yeah, unless it's a lump off a factory shelf with those ratios, you can't pick and choose what's inside it and stay in the letter of the rules. If there's no update/backdate transmission available like that, you can't do it. That's the way *SP rules are.

Or, welcome to C Prepared! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/2thumbs.gif)
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landstuhltaylor
post Sep 16 2018, 06:31 AM
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QUOTE (CrashTestDummy @ Sep 15 2018, 05:10 PM) *
QUOTE (ESPCamaro @ Sep 15 2018, 06:38 AM) *
QUOTE (SuperMacGuy @ Sep 14 2018, 06:48 PM) *
You could get a trans rebuild and spec the other gears. Externally it would look the same. I have a rebuild TR6060 and I could have gotten the lower gears; but I kept the stock ratios. I guess you can get a good launch with the lower gears, usually good, but maybe you need to hit 3rd gear for a very fast course. At my region's airstrip location, I still don't even get to 3rd gear, but at top of 2nd a lot, but not sure that on slicks I'd need much more actual speed for Autocross.



Which would be blatant cheating


Yeah, unless it's a lump off a factory shelf with those ratios, you can't pick and choose what's inside it and stay in the letter of the rules. If there's no update/backdate transmission available like that, you can't do it. That's the way *SP rules are.

Or, welcome to C Prepared! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/2thumbs.gif)


I'm leaning towards a FAST 102 instead of tjhe trans swap. M29 is possiboe but most likely not with the small clucth and would require fabrication on top of that. The manifikd seems likr a better long term investment with the eventual LS2 build for CP. I think I have one more year of ESP before making the jumo.
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Smitty2919
post Sep 27 2018, 11:35 AM
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CAM-C, then you don't have to sweat the small stuff (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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ESPCamaro
post Sep 29 2018, 09:53 PM
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QUOTE (Smitty2919 @ Sep 27 2018, 05:35 AM) *
CAM-C, then you don't have to sweat the small stuff (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)



Iím just going to be honest.
CAM C looked like fun and a good place to just have some fun. There are a few glaring issues that I just donít like enough that I bailed before running with that group.
1. CAM C Invitational runs DURING the Pro Solo Finale
2. CAM C is nothing more than a place for the newest cars because of the ďrulesĒ
3. Rules are a good thing
4. Worthwhile CAM mods ruin the car for running in real classes
5. Itís not a real class. This is a participation and recruitment class

At the end of the day a CAM C car is an expensive car that runs on garbage tires and is still slow
IMO
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ESPCamaro
post Oct 4 2018, 02:03 PM
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Another big change:
Sounds like TONS of people use data acquisition and/or video nowadays.
I donít remember seeing anyone use video in 05í. The ďChaseCamĒ has just come out but I never really saw them.
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SuperMacGuy
post Oct 4 2018, 04:16 PM
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Yeah I've seen it too - the tablets hooked to cams where you can review your run right away. With graphs and whatnot. I dunno. I don't think that's cheating, but, a good driver should be able to think back and know where they made mistakes. It should be a level playing field. Either no one has data acq, or everyone does.
You can drop over $800 on a good new tablet and video setup.
Also, I"m sort of a luddite and think the over-computerification of F1 for example has taken all the interest out of it. I want the DRIVER to be in control, not the traction control or the pit lane guys telling him he's got to do this or that. I have absolutely zero interest in watching "self driving cars racing".
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ESPCamaro
post Oct 4 2018, 06:06 PM
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QUOTE (SuperMacGuy @ Oct 4 2018, 10:16 AM) *
Yeah I've seen it too - the tablets hooked to cams where you can review your run right away. With graphs and whatnot. I dunno. I don't think that's cheating, but, a good driver should be able to think back and know where they made mistakes. It should be a level playing field. Either no one has data acq, or everyone does.
You can drop over $800 on a good new tablet and video setup.
Also, I"m sort of a luddite and think the over-computerification of F1 for example has taken all the interest out of it. I want the DRIVER to be in control, not the traction control or the pit lane guys telling him he's got to do this or that. I have absolutely zero interest in watching "self driving cars racing".


It stinks because I have SO MUCH to do and buy and I definitely want ay least Solo Storm @ $200. I can deal with that just have to see how much the video side will cost
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ESPCamaro
post Oct 4 2018, 06:09 PM
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The other thing is I suspect itís most useful for drivers who need the most improvement which will be me
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landstuhltaylor
post Oct 4 2018, 07:26 PM
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It has some value as a single driver car, it has much more value if there are two drivers in it.
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Mojave
post Oct 4 2018, 07:36 PM
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QUOTE (SuperMacGuy @ Oct 4 2018, 11:16 AM) *
Yeah I've seen it too - the tablets hooked to cams where you can review your run right away. With graphs and whatnot. I dunno. I don't think that's cheating, but, a good driver should be able to think back and know where they made mistakes. It should be a level playing field. Either no one has data acq, or everyone does.
You can drop over $800 on a good new tablet and video setup.
Also, I"m sort of a luddite and think the over-computerification of F1 for example has taken all the interest out of it. I want the DRIVER to be in control, not the traction control or the pit lane guys telling him he's got to do this or that. I have absolutely zero interest in watching "self driving cars racing".


There have been have's and have not's in racing since the dawn of the automobile. $800 is less than one set of tires and a good daq will last for years and years.

If you want a spec class, go run SSC.
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ESPCamaro
post Oct 4 2018, 10:04 PM
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QUOTE (Mojave @ Oct 4 2018, 01:36 PM) *
QUOTE (SuperMacGuy @ Oct 4 2018, 11:16 AM) *
Yeah I've seen it too - the tablets hooked to cams where you can review your run right away. With graphs and whatnot. I dunno. I don't think that's cheating, but, a good driver should be able to think back and know where they made mistakes. It should be a level playing field. Either no one has data acq, or everyone does.
You can drop over $800 on a good new tablet and video setup.
Also, I"m sort of a luddite and think the over-computerification of F1 for example has taken all the interest out of it. I want the DRIVER to be in control, not the traction control or the pit lane guys telling him he's got to do this or that. I have absolutely zero interest in watching "self driving cars racing".


There have been have's and have not's in racing since the dawn of the automobile. $800 is less than one set of tires and a good daq will last for years and years.

If you want a spec class, go run SSC.



Unfortunately thatís going to be the case for forever.
If someone has enough money to justify 10k on a set of shocks theyíll spend it.
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00PewterSS
post Oct 12 2018, 01:10 AM
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QUOTE (ESPCamaro @ Sep 29 2018, 09:53 PM) *
QUOTE (Smitty2919 @ Sep 27 2018, 05:35 AM) *
CAM-C, then you don't have to sweat the small stuff (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)



Iím just going to be honest.
CAM C looked like fun and a good place to just have some fun. There are a few glaring issues that I just donít like enough that I bailed before running with that group.
1. CAM C Invitational runs DURING the Pro Solo Finale
2. CAM C is nothing more than a place for the newest cars because of the ďrulesĒ
3. Rules are a good thing
4. Worthwhile CAM mods ruin the car for running in real classes
5. Itís not a real class. This is a participation and recruitment class

At the end of the day a CAM C car is an expensive car that runs on garbage tires and is still slow
IMO


I was happy for this class because I put parts on my car without know what AutoX was. Then I got into AutoX and my car was BMT. It is still a street car, so that isn't a fair class! Now I'm complaining because I think CAM C should be restricted to solid axle cars. The new cars were not running CAM-C at first, now they figured out that an '18 Camaro SS is stupid fast and it is pretty easy to annihilate most highly modified CAM-C cars.

With that said, I've thrown about everything at my car, minus weight reduction (it is heavy). I'm happy with how it drives now and the fastest 4th gen around my area (not saying much though). I'm still trying to figure out how to make it faster. Where do you plan to run, I see you are in SW Mich?
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mikedamageinc
post Oct 12 2018, 02:05 PM
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QUOTE (00PewterSS @ Oct 11 2018, 09:10 PM) *
QUOTE (ESPCamaro @ Sep 29 2018, 09:53 PM) *
QUOTE (Smitty2919 @ Sep 27 2018, 05:35 AM) *
CAM-C, then you don't have to sweat the small stuff (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)



Iím just going to be honest.
CAM C looked like fun and a good place to just have some fun. There are a few glaring issues that I just donít like enough that I bailed before running with that group.
1. CAM C Invitational runs DURING the Pro Solo Finale
2. CAM C is nothing more than a place for the newest cars because of the ďrulesĒ
3. Rules are a good thing
4. Worthwhile CAM mods ruin the car for running in real classes
5. Itís not a real class. This is a participation and recruitment class

At the end of the day a CAM C car is an expensive car that runs on garbage tires and is still slow
IMO


I was happy for this class because I put parts on my car without know what AutoX was. Then I got into AutoX and my car was BMT. It is still a street car, so that isn't a fair class! Now I'm complaining because I think CAM C should be restricted to solid axle cars. The new cars were not running CAM-C at first, now they figured out that an '18 Camaro SS is stupid fast and it is pretty easy to annihilate most highly modified CAM-C cars.

With that said, I've thrown about everything at my car, minus weight reduction (it is heavy). I'm happy with how it drives now and the fastest 4th gen around my area (not saying much though). I'm still trying to figure out how to make it faster. Where do you plan to run, I see you are in SW Mich?


I agree, I wouldn't want it to get too complicated since the reason it was started is for simple fun, but it would be nice to see a little more separation between the "middle aged" muscle and the younger fellas
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CrashTestDummy
post Oct 12 2018, 04:59 PM
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QUOTE (landstuhltaylor @ Oct 4 2018, 02:26 PM) *
It has some value as a single driver car, it has much more value if there are two drivers in it.


I've found the learning curve to be pretty steep for most of those systems. I find simple video where you can see most of the track and driver inputs to be fairly-useful, but mostly after the fact. With the short time between runs at most regional events, you rarely have time to do the overlay of driver runs to compare, and since most of the 'lipstick' cameras, downloading the recorded videos to some device where you can review the run usually takes more time than the actual run itself. I guess the stuff could be useful 'semi-live' if you had a quick way to grab the memory card out of the camera and get it plugged into a laptop of tablet, but with everything else that usually happens between rounds, you really need a 'crew member' dedicated to just the datalogging stuff to get the time to get the data transferred and reviewed.

Still, we DO record, though, both data (we currently use the Petrel SoloStorm on a Galaxy Tab 4), and video (we have two Re-Play cameras, a 1080-Mini (our first RePlay camera) we use to record output from our A/F meter, and a PrimeX we use to record driver actions and the car run with the camera pointing out the windshield), but rarely view the output until we get home and have decompressed from the event. The last even video should be fun to watch, since I did ground-loop the car on my last run.

All-in-all, I probably have about $1000 in the current package, but have gone through a CamFX (worked fine until the controller quit booting) and a Canon digital video camera (didn't at all like the vibrations it was exposed to, and would frequently just quit working and shut itself off, even when recording to a memory card).

It seems the next step up in data logging is about 2X+ what we've currently spent. Still mulling that over, but hopefully we'd get something a bit more user-friendly.
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ESPCamaro
post Oct 13 2018, 09:54 PM
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QUOTE (00PewterSS @ Oct 11 2018, 07:10 PM) *
QUOTE (ESPCamaro @ Sep 29 2018, 09:53 PM) *
QUOTE (Smitty2919 @ Sep 27 2018, 05:35 AM) *
CAM-C, then you don't have to sweat the small stuff (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)



Iím just going to be honest.
CAM C looked like fun and a good place to just have some fun. There are a few glaring issues that I just donít like enough that I bailed before running with that group.
1. CAM C Invitational runs DURING the Pro Solo Finale
2. CAM C is nothing more than a place for the newest cars because of the ďrulesĒ
3. Rules are a good thing
4. Worthwhile CAM mods ruin the car for running in real classes
5. Itís not a real class. This is a participation and recruitment class

At the end of the day a CAM C car is an expensive car that runs on garbage tires and is still slow
IMO


I was happy for this class because I put parts on my car without know what AutoX was. Then I got into AutoX and my car was BMT. It is still a street car, so that isn't a fair class! Now I'm complaining because I think CAM C should be restricted to solid axle cars. The new cars were not running CAM-C at first, now they figured out that an '18 Camaro SS is stupid fast and it is pretty easy to annihilate most highly modified CAM-C cars.

With that said, I've thrown about everything at my car, minus weight reduction (it is heavy). I'm happy with how it drives now and the fastest 4th gen around my area (not saying much though). I'm still trying to figure out how to make it faster. Where do you plan to run, I see you are in SW Mich?


When I autocrossed a lot I was a NWOR member. My local region was 35 minutes away and northwest Ohio region was 2+hours away.
This go around Iíll probably join up with the Fort Wayne region since we just moved to Fremont IN just south of Coldwater MI
As for where Iíll race....hell at first Iíll take anything I can get but then Iíll try and pick events that are likely to have the kinds of courses and surfaces I like.
I raced with all the regions or clubs in a 3hr radius at one time or another
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