new fast track and SP restructuring? Options

[Joe Silva]

http://www.scca.com/_FileLibrary/File/06-12-fastrack.pdf

I guess the DSP bimmer proposal got shot down due to a larger restructure in SP. I seriously hope they leave ESP alone (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/banghead.gif)

[Mojave]

It looks like BP really did get the axe after all.

[Absolut Speed]

http://www.scca.com/_FileLibrary/File/06-12-fastrack.pdf

Idue to a larger restructure in SP.

Yeah, I wonder what this means.... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

[marka]

Howdy,

Well, they talk about best of breed, so here's what I think it should look like... :-)

ASP -- as today
BSP -- as today, plus anything awd turbo (all WRX on the same line, all Evo, all DSM, etc.)
CSP -- as today, plus X1/9
DSP -- "new" class... Fast FWD cars. ITR, Neon, RSX, etc. etc.
ESP -- as today, plus the IS300, E30 BMW, non-turbo awd. Slowest rwd or awd class.
FSP -- "slow" fwd cars, probably as today.

And yes, I figure that BSP might become the domain of the awd rally cars, particularly if they / manufacturers keep on developing. But maybe not, if there's enough "not fast enough for ASP" rwd stuff.

Alternatively, you could make DSP "awd rally car land" and make FSP "fwd land". But that hoses every existing FSP car. Upside is it leaves BSP with the e36, S2000, 350Z etc.

So, whaddya think?

Mark

[Joe Silva]

Howdy,

ESP -- as today, plus the IS300, E30 BMW, non-turbo awd. Slowest rwd or awd class.

So, whaddya think?

Mark

I guess i'll be selling my car if that happens, kinda makes me not want to spend $$ on a M29 tranny

[BigEnos]

I think running against E30s and IS300s would suck bad, and I'd be bumming a ride for '07 and driving the Camaro to work!

ESP is healthy, please leave it alone! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rant.gif)

[Joe Silva]

I think running against E30s and IS300s would suck bad, and I'd be bumming a ride for '07 and driving the Camaro to work!

ESP is healthy, please leave it alone! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rant.gif)

No Joke! I hope it doesnt happen, but if it does, i guess i can pull off all the ESP stuff, sell it off, and possibly go to Fstock in my SS?

[marka]

Howdy,

I think running against E30s and IS300s would suck bad, and I'd be bumming a ride for '07 and driving the Camaro to work!

ESP is healthy, please leave it alone! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rant.gif)

I dunno. I can see the E36 as a potential overdog car for ESP given its ability to get the 2.8 engine, but I don't see the IS300 and E30 as such.

Nats results this year have Sam in front of Alex by 7 tenths. Granted, Shipkov would've finished 2nd in ESP.

I guess looking at the results, the real questions are whether Sam has a killer setup or not (i.e. was his crushing ESP due to a killer setup or killer driving (or both)), along with how you think Shipkov is as a driver. If Sam's domination was due more to a killer setup, you can expect the other pony cars to go a little faster. If his domination was due to alien driving, then you need to figure out if Shipkov was also kicking ass and taking names.

And also... Whether or not the IS300 was outclassed by the E36 BMW in DSP. Certainly it would appear some folks must have thought so since they were never particularly popular and have now gone completely away. Back when I recall Butts running the IS300 and doing well with it in DSP, nobody was running the 328 motor in the E36 cars were they? In fact, they might not have been running the 285 tires either.

Personally, with an ESP class like I described, I'd pick a pony car first, then a new WRX (and some spare trannies), then the e30/IS300.

I.e. I'd be worrying more about the WRX than the E30/IS300 if I thought pony car dominance was going to be challenged.

Mark

[BigEnos]

One car, that's exactly how many E30/IS300s are currently being competitively campaigned nationally. If there's even a chance that this car may outclass the current ESP cars then why are we, as a club, gonna do it? You do have to break eggs to make an omlette, but do you have to break *all* the eggs?

The WRX is a completely unrelated issue to this, and whether or not it is more competitive than the E30/IS300 would be is immaterial to whether the E30 or IS300, or both, should be moved to ESP.

[trackbird]

Nats results this year have Sam in front of Alex by 7 tenths. Granted, Shipkov would've finished 2nd in ESP.

I guess looking at the results, the real questions are whether Sam has a killer setup or not (i.e. was his crushing ESP due to a killer setup or killer driving (or both)), along with how you think Shipkov is as a driver. If Sam's domination was due more to a killer setup, you can expect the other pony cars to go a little faster. If his domination was due to alien driving, then you need to figure out if Shipkov was also kicking ass and taking names.

Alex is local and I've seen him drive (many, many weekends), I've seen Sam drive as well. Sam is typically super fast, Alex is super fast as well. I'm going to guess that we have a case of two great setups and two great drivers. I don't think one thing or the other is the key, I think it's a package in both cases.

[marka]

Howdy,

One car, that's exactly how many E30/IS300s are currently being competitively campaigned nationally. If there's even a chance that this car may outclass the current ESP cars then why are we, as a club, gonna do it? You do have to break eggs to make an omlette, but do you have to break *all* the eggs?

The WRX is a completely unrelated issue to this, and whether or not it is more competitive than the E30/IS300 would be is immaterial to whether the E30 or IS300, or both, should be moved to ESP.

The thing to me is that I just don't think an E30 or IS300 should be a problem for a good ESP car. I think they might have a chance, but are _way_ not overdogs.

The WRX isn't unrelated to this, since if the WRX is faster than the pony cars (and I think its got a better shot at this than the e30/is300 do) and our goal is to "leave ESP alone", then there's not an issue putting a car into esp that's slower than the WRX.

Mark

(who _really_ wants an SM-Heavy class... :-)

[BigEnos]

Howdy,

The WRX isn't unrelated to this, since if the WRX is faster than the pony cars (and I think its got a better shot at this than the e30/is300 do) and our goal is to "leave ESP alone", then there's not an issue putting a car into esp that's slower than the WRX.

Mark

(who _really_ wants an SM-Heavy class... :-)

There is a big difference here. The WRX has been in ESP for a long time, possibly since it came out. *And* there are not any currently being campaigned. I do think the newest iteration of the WRX could be the fastest thing is ESP, but that's just my own (and many others') reckoning. I'm not going to move a car that no one has setup yet because I *think* it might be really fast.

Fact is, by leaving the WRX there we are "leaving ESP alone". By adding a car(s) we are most definitely not leaving ESP alone.

Alex is an incredible driver in a very well setup car. If the E36 BMWs aren't moving, then why are we moving the E30/IS300s that have proven to be very competitive with the E36? If the E36 is moving, then why don't we just move the other two cars with it?

What exactly is it that the club is trying to accomplish? I've asked that question repeatedly, but I never get a candid answer. If ESP participation was low I could understand the SEB wanting to do something, but I see a healthy class with a clearly defined "type" of car that is popular and competitive. We have competitive cars on both coasts and spread around the center of the country so the interest is well distributed, too.

I laid back and took a wait-and-see approach with the last two attempts to redefine ESP (E36 BMW M3 and STiEvo). I won't anymore. I will fight all attempts to subjugate ponycars in ESP, either official or unofficial.

[marka]

Howdy,

There is a big difference here. The WRX has been in ESP for a long time, possibly since it came out. *And* there are not any currently being campaigned. I do think the newest iteration of the WRX could be the fastest thing is ESP, but that's just my own (and many others') reckoning. I'm not going to move a car that no one has setup yet because I *think* it might be really fast.

Fact is, by leaving the WRX there we are "leaving ESP alone". By adding a car(s) we are most definitely not leaving ESP alone.

Usually when people say they want to "leave a class alone" what they _really_ mean are that they don't want the class to change from what it is today. If someone builds a good WRX, I think it could well mean that alll the current ESP pony cars would be on the trailer. To me, that's not "leaving the class alone".

You'll note in my "this is how I think it should go", I actually moved those cars to BSP.

Alex is an incredible driver in a very well setup car. If the E36 BMWs aren't moving, then why are we moving the E30/IS300s that have proven to be very competitive with the E36? If the E36 is moving, then why don't we just move the other two cars with it?

Again, my ideas there would put the E36 in BSP. That's 'ok' because they can add a good bit of power if they're on the same line as the E36 M3. The E30 cars and the IS300 can't do that and personally I don't think they'd be dominant in ESP. Hence why I thought it would be smart to put them there.

I agree with you that if they'd be dominant in ESP, I don't think they should go there. However, we've had an excellent driver in both examples of those cars, setup well, and they haven't shown they'd be dominant in ESP. In the hunt maybe, but certainly not dominant.

What exactly is it that the club is trying to accomplish? I've asked that question repeatedly, but I never get a candid answer. If ESP participation was low I could understand the SEB wanting to do something, but I see a healthy class with a clearly defined "type" of car that is popular and competitive. We have competitive cars on both coasts and spread around the center of the country so the interest is well distributed, too.

Remember, these are just my ideas of how a restructuring could occur, and probably have nothing whatsoever to do with what the SPAC/SEB think should happen.

I laid back and took a wait-and-see approach with the last two attempts to redefine ESP (E36 BMW M3 and STiEvo). I won't anymore. I will fight all attempts to subjugate ponycars in ESP, either official or unofficial.

Dude, if you really think I'm out to "subjugate ponycars in ESP" then you haven't been paying attention for, like, _years_.

Simply put, the only reason that in my mind the E30 and IS300 would be ok in ESP is because they (still) wouldn't be the car to have for the class, but it happens to be the class they'd have the best shot in with DSP changing into something else.

Mark

[pknowles]

What exactly is it that the club is trying to accomplish? I've asked that question repeatedly, but I never get a candid answer. If ESP participation was low I could understand the SEB wanting to do something, but I see a healthy class with a clearly defined "type" of car that is popular and competitive. We have competitive cars on both coasts and spread around the center of the country so the interest is well distributed, too.

I agree. It reminds me of when the S2000 got moved up to AS from BS. In the prevous years at Nats, BS had 60 drivers in 2003 and then 49 drivers in 2004. I couldn't beleive they would mess with BS since it was bring in such large numbers at the possibility of screwing over all those drivers. However, I do think BS is better today, but a lot of S2000 drivers jumped ship and I don't think that is a positive move IMHO.

I'll also say for the record that I hate it when the SEB publishes things like a hint of a major reorganization without any details of what they are tring to do. There needs to be a much better line of communication between the SEB and the membership. At least something to the effect of "Because of the overwhelming popularity of car YYY, we are tring to give car YYY and similar cars a more compeditive classing". And yes at the amiture level I think popularity of cars should be part of the classing processes.

This post has been edited by pknowles: Nov 22 2006, 05:10 PM

[BigEnos]

Howdy,

Dude, if you really think I'm out to "subjugate ponycars in ESP" then you haven't been paying attention for, like, _years_.

Simply put, the only reason that in my mind the E30 and IS300 would be ok in ESP is because they (still) wouldn't be the car to have for the class, but it happens to be the class they'd have the best shot in with DSP changing into something else.

Mark

They aren't ponycars, they aren't lower tier AWD cars, they don't belong.

Do *I* think you are trying to? No. Will others when they hear of such a proposal? Maybe. So I fight it, intelligently I hope. I just don't want there to be any ambiguity in my stance.

Leave ESP alone.

WRT the WRX, I don't think anyone will pony up to build one. Lots of work/money and most people will just get an STi and mess with it instead. Jumping on a car that no one has built/proven and is firmly established in the class will only make me look like a numbskull Winch-ite and I'd lose credibility. I do realize that battles must be chosen to be won. Hopefully by the time someone builds a WRX I'll be driving an '09 Camaro in FS anyway (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)