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> Need a big @$$ wing for the Camaro, School project
SuperCricket
post Jan 23 2009, 08:05 AM
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It's been a while since I've posted. I've been trying to finish college getting my BS in computer science. I'm down to my senior project which is going to be a ghetto imitation of the Bugatti airbrake system on the Veyron. I'm sure some of you have seen it, and apparently at speeds above 115 ish once it snaps up to a 55 degree angle it provides around .6 g of negative acceleration on the heavy 4,500 pound Veyron.

(IMG:http://www.bugatti.com/pages/101/bildspalte/verzoegerung02.jpg)
(IMG:http://ghettolanparty.org/gallery/gallery-storage/CamaroRacecar/ghettomaro_2007_1.sized.jpg)

The ole Camaro weighs 2,875 on the scales so hopefully I can get some free braking out of this and graduate at the same time. The system will be controlled by a microcontroller and circuit setup I have to design, and will change degree based on the speed of the car. So for autocross speeds I can have a very high angle of attack, and as speed increases it can drop back so as to not kill the drag. Then of course under braking it will snap up to an appropirate angle to give some additional drag on the car. I have to test all of this along the way with accelerometers and what not to see if it makes any difference.

So the question is, does anyone know where to get a Camaro sized airfoil that isn't $1,100. After googling for a while the only one I could find is a G-stream wing, but I don't really want to blow that much on an airfoil. All of the ebay knockoffs are only 56 inches wide or so, and would look goofy on the wide Camaro. I also need a wider chord so I can get some good drag out of the airbrake so a silly 6 inch wide ebay wing wont do me much good.

Anyway thanks for any ideas or help! I'm still in the Dallas/Fort Worth area if that makes any different on an airfoil supplier.

-Kyle

This post has been edited by SuperCricket: Jan 23 2009, 08:11 AM
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trackbird
post Jan 23 2009, 01:13 PM
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Hey Kyle,

I don't have any good info on the wing, but it's good to see you back. I was thinking about you and your rebuild the other day and wondering where you were hiding. Not sure why, but something reminded me of your accident on the 315's in the rain and the rebuild that followed. Glad you're still around, it's nice to see you drop in.
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StanIROCZ
post Jan 23 2009, 01:13 PM
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Cool project.

Agent 47 had something like that but I can't seem to find it now. http://www.agentfortyseven.com/products.html It didn't have the controls that you will, though.

Just a suggestion, maybe just a big flat piece of polycarbonate will get your grade and provide the braking function. It obviously won't have the efficiency of a wing, but you don't want efficiency during braking anyways. It would be much cheaper and you can upgrade later if you have the cash. I'm sure you're going to spend a lot of money on the stuff to make the wing move.
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GlennCMC70
post Jan 23 2009, 01:33 PM
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http://www.fulcrummotorsports.com/
they have been working w/ several Texas AI and CMC drivers. they are local to you. i've met the guys several times and they are great guys. give them a shout and see what they have. Neil is likely who you will get in contact w/.
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00 Trans Ram
post Jan 23 2009, 02:38 PM
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You may be best served by building your own. It's not overly hard. Easiest way is to make a few cross-sectional diagrams. If you want to decide on the best design, I suggest using a program like FoilSim2. It's free, and lets you adjsut the shape, size and angle of attack of your wing to see what the results will be. Personally, I think that the cross-section of a DC-3 would be the best for our cars. I don't remember the specs off the top of my head, but it has a very high lift factor at low speeds (for an airfoil, auto racing qualifies as "low speed") and works at high angles of attack without stalling out.

As far as how to do it, there are a few methods. Easiest to hardest, they are:

- Make about 4 cross-sections out of thin plywood. Attach "L" brackets around the perimeter of each. Space them out however wide you want your wing and cover them with thin aluminum sheet. Rivet the sheet to the brackets on the cross-sections. It'll be stiff, and fairly light.

- Do that same thing, but first drill holes (large ones, like 2" in diameter) in all the cross-sections. Alternately, you can drill holes in the wing itself. Fill each section with expanding foam (preferrably, the non-sticky kind). Remove the skin (use cheaper material than aluminum, since you won't be keeping it). You'll have a foam wing. Cover the wing in fiberglass and finish it off.

- You can try to glue foam pads together and carve them into the shape of a wing. Then cover with glass. I think that'd be almost impossible to get symetrical and straight.

- Instead of using fiberglass, use carbon fiber. More expensive and harder to work with, but lighter and cooler.
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00 Trans Ram
post Jan 23 2009, 02:44 PM
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QUOTE (GlennCMC70 @ Jan 23 2009, 07:33 AM) *
http://www.fulcrummotorsports.com/
they have been working w/ several Texas AI and CMC drivers. they are local to you. i've met the guys several times and they are great guys. give them a shout and see what they have. Neil is likely who you will get in contact w/.



I love that site. How did I not know about it????
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CrashTestDummy
post Jan 23 2009, 04:22 PM
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Sounds like you're set on a wing that also acts as an air brake. That'll need to be pretty strong to handle the forces when it's flipped up into the air.

How about designing anti-lift panels like on the NASCAR Stock Car roofs that kill their aerodynamics when they get sideways? A couple of pieces in the back half of the roof could be hydraulically-operated to pop up when you mash the brake pedal, or when brake pressure reaches a certain level, or over a certain speed? Such panels would probably be in a better place on the car to provide more braking power than back behind the passenger compartment like a wing would be.

People will also flip with such a wing, though. I don't know of any sanctioning body that allows 'movable wings'. Cool for a project, but useless anywhere but the street or a DE.
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00 Trans Ram
post Jan 23 2009, 04:34 PM
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QUOTE (CrashTestDummy @ Jan 23 2009, 10:22 AM) *
People will also flip with such a wing, though. I don't know of any sanctioning body that allows 'movable wings'. Cool for a project, but useless anywhere but the street or a DE.


Good point.

However, at least one does. The series I run in (Grand Bayou) allows them. Heck - we allow anything, as long as it's safe.
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SuperCricket
post Jan 23 2009, 04:36 PM
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Yeah luckily no one runs CP at autocross events around here but me and other than driving events the only other thing I have planned for the car are Time Trials with NASA and the Big Bend Open Road Race one day. I'm too poor to go wheel to wheel in AIX until I get a real job.

Thanks Glenn I'll call Fulcrum. And yeah Trans Ram if I can't find something for under $1,000 then I might just end up building one like that. Of course it might rip off the back of the car the first time I hit the brakes if I build it.
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00 Trans Ram
post Jan 23 2009, 06:50 PM
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I'd definitely mount it to the frame of the car. It would likely tear through the fiberglass.
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SuperCricket
post Jan 24 2009, 05:28 AM
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Well I talked to the guy at Fulcrum. He seemed really nice but doesn't want to sell just the wing without the uprights and installation hardware. Said he wants to make sure it was done right and looked good since their name is on the thing. Their airfoil looks so good I could attatch it to rusty fence posts on the back of the Camaro and people would still call them up to buy one. I guess they make enough money they don't even want to spray paint the thing black so no one knows who made it and let me hand them a check. *shrugs*

So anyway it's back to the G-stream wing for $1,395 without shipping or making one myself out of sheel metal and plywood. Please tell me someone else makes these things. I googled again for a while and came up with nothing. Maybe I just suck at the internet.
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DanKeen
post Jan 24 2009, 06:41 PM
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Kyle, I don't think you want a wing. Airfoils work through a limited range of angle of attack before they end up stalling. Look at the Bugatti - that's not a wing, it's a plate with some endplates to prevent spillage.

I think what you're looking to create is more an active spoiler, and that can be done with any stiff material (or properly supported material)... i.e. Alan Blaine's lexan spoilers. Make that tall and active in its angle, and I think you've got a cool project that will pay great dividends.
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