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> At a crossroads......opinions, car dilemma
bowtieboy
post May 21 2008, 04:56 PM
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Posting this to see if anyone would like to offer any information, opinions or insite on what might be the better car to run in stock class, to include Nationals ~ car would not be a daily driver (trying to weigh my options)......feel free to "shoot from the hip"

2002 Z06
- Cost around $25,000. Still holding up well at National level events, but the Lotus and GT3 seem to have a definite advantage. Shocks (Penski) are pretty expensive (around $3000 ?). No wheel hop. Tires are around $1300 a full set. Would need smoething to transport tires (or car)

2007 Mustang GT (Shelby conversion)- Cost around $25,000 (converted). Top car in class thus far. Warrantee. Shocks $750 Minimal to no wheel hop. Tires are around $1300. I believe race tires will all fit in car.

98-02 SS- Cost $15,000 (for one with lower miles). Seems to still be competetive (should have a better idea later in the year). Shocks $750. Front bar $150. Wheel hop. VictorRacers (for local events) $880 / Divisionals or Nationals $1000 Tires can fit in car (in a pinch).

The costs are not an overriding factor but due play into my thought process (thus my reasons for showing prices). I just would like to see what else I could be over looking or what someone might be willing to share. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Thanks
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KeithO
post May 21 2008, 05:22 PM
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QUOTE (bowtieboy @ May 21 2008, 10:56 AM) *
Posting this to see if anyone would like to offer any information, opinions or insite on what might be the better car to run in stock class, to include Nationals ~ car would not be a daily driver (trying to weigh my options)......feel free to "shoot from the hip"

2002 Z06
- Cost around $25,000. Still holding up well at National level events, but the Lotus and GT3 seem to have a definite advantage. Shocks (Penski) are pretty expensive (around $3000 ?). No wheel hop. Tires are around $1300 a full set. Would need smoething to transport tires (or car)

2007 Mustang GT (Shelby conversion)- Cost around $25,000 (converted). Top car in class thus far. Warrantee. Shocks $750 Minimal to no wheel hop. Tires are around $1300. I believe race tires will all fit in car.

98-02 SS- Cost $15,000 (for one with lower miles). Seems to still be competetive (should have a better idea later in the year). Shocks $750. Front bar $150. Wheel hop. VictorRacers (for local events) $880 / Divisionals or Nationals $1000 Tires can fit in car (in a pinch).

The costs are not an overriding factor but due play into my thought process (thus my reasons for showing prices). I just would like to see what else I could be over looking or what someone might be willing to share. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Thanks


From what I *think* I know, the Mustang and Z06 are class-leading. The LS1 f-body isn't bad but I think the newer Mustangs might have a slight edge on the National level. Are you running largely for fun or are you determined to trophy?

All three are fun cars.
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bowtieboy
post May 21 2008, 05:41 PM
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QUOTE (KeithO @ May 21 2008, 12:22 PM) *
Are you running largely for fun or are you determined to trophy?


....determined to trophy (I do understand this could be visions of grandeur) (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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98_1LE
post May 21 2008, 05:59 PM
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At this juncture the Shelby is most appealing.

Call me sometime D...
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BigEnos
post May 21 2008, 06:16 PM
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Do you really need Penskes (or similar) to make a Z06 competitive???

And to convert a 'stang make sure you just track down a GT/CS vs a regular GT. It already has a lot of the stuff you'll need (fascias, etc). Also, make sure it has the bagged seats. Sorry if you already knew all this.
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sgarnett
post May 21 2008, 06:16 PM
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The smart buy is probably the Shelby, though I don't give much weight to the warranty on a competition car, since there's no such thing (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) At least I don't know of a car with a warranty that covers "off-road" use (such as autocross). Some dealers may choose to honor it even knowing what the car is used for, but IMHO trying to pass off competition wear and tear as normal usage is basically fraud.

Personally, I care as much or more about my raw time than I care about pax or class ranking. If a Z06 is in the budget, I'd be really tempted to go that route.
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Sam Strano
post May 21 2008, 06:45 PM
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Hmmm... 3 cars I know a little something about setting up.

I've had my hands in/all over most of the fastest C5's @ Nats the last few years. I obviously know the Mustang and the Camaro.

First, you don't need $3k shocks for the Z06... In fact I maintain you don't WANT them, as I've had to fix a few sets valving wise over the years.

The tires, well if you compare apples to apples there isn't a lot of difference, certainly between the 18's on the Vette and Mustang, some down to the 17's, but still talking a lot of coin for A6's @ in 275's currently around $271 per, up to $290 per for 295's. At that point, is $306 for Mustang 18's really that much different?

Setting up a Mustang (already a Shelby) is right about $1000. Pretty much the same as a Camaro if you use 4/3's, but the Camaro would cost more if you use 4/4's. A Z06 is about $1200 for shocks and the front bar I use. So that's about a wash.

The Mustang has the best ABS of the 3. Mileage is similar. You can't fit squat in a Z06 really. The Mustang has room inside, though trailer hitches are a pain on CS or Shelby's because of the bumper cover, vs. easy bolt ons for the Vette/F-body.

I think in the end you have 3 cars, 2 of which are for sure, known commodities in their classes. The SS I think can be damned fast and competitive, but not many are working on it and certainly not at breakneak speed. In the end, I still think the Camaro's ABS, all else being equal could hurt it vs. the Ford.

I don't think there is a truly wrong choice here. But I have to be honest, I do think there are 2 smarter choices than the SS.
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mitchntx
post May 21 2008, 08:21 PM
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QUOTE (bowtieboy @ May 21 2008, 11:56 AM) *
anyone would like to offer any information, opinions or insite


$10K will get you into this ...

http://www.lawmotorsports.net/Chassis4.htm

(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/2thumbs.gif)

Howzit going Drew? The baby has to be 4 ... 5 years old now, right?
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ESPCamaro
post May 21 2008, 08:55 PM
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I think it wise to go with the most reliable car available. And that, because of age/mileage is the Mustang.........

Fuel prices are just to damn high to tow a stock class autox car anywhere......I'll probably drive my S/P car everywhere next year.....And hope nothing breaks.
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bowtieboy
post May 21 2008, 09:11 PM
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Chuck - I agree, from an autocross stand point, it's coming across as the front runner.....just have to get over my brand loyality (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) .........I'll try and call this weekend.

BigEnos - I did know about what is needed to put a Shelby together (but I did not expreess it) so I do appreciate you for taking the time to pass the informaiton along ~ thanks

sgarnett - yeah, the "fun factor" side is pulling me towards the Z06 .....but I'm trying to keep an open mind about what might be best and I'm concerned about the other 2 "players" in that group having just a little too much of an advantage.

Sam - as alway, thank you very much for taking the time to give your insite ~ it is alway greatly appreciated. In having experience in all 3 vehicles, I was hoping that you woud offer your informative/objective point of view......and thanks for the honesty

In learning that the Penski shocks aren't a must for the Z06 sure does make it look better on the financial side.

EDIT: I wasn't as clear as I should have been on the tires ~ meaning with the SS, one could use the VictorRacers (less expensive tires) at the local level and the A6's for practices before (and for) the divisional and National events.....not an option for the Shelby or Z06

Thanks again for all the replies......
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sgarnett
post May 21 2008, 09:38 PM
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For economy, I think the ability to rotate your tires for every event buys a lot of tire life. That, sadly, leaves out the Z06.
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bowtieboy
post May 21 2008, 09:53 PM
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QUOTE (mitchntx @ May 21 2008, 03:21 PM) *
QUOTE (bowtieboy @ May 21 2008, 11:56 AM) *
anyone would like to offer any information, opinions or insite


$10K will get you into this ...

http://www.lawmotorsports.net/Chassis4.htm

(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/2thumbs.gif)

Howzit going Drew? The baby has to be 4 ... 5 years old now, right?


As tempting as that is, the scratch on the passenger's front blew it for me ..... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

All joking aside, I was giving thought to asking you (and Glenn) to build me a CMC car, as I know that would be a blast, but after long consideration .......the wife said no (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

As for the kid(s), yep, she's almost 5 ~ and a 2nd one now that's almost 3......and thus I've had even less time to play than before.
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prockbp
post May 21 2008, 11:57 PM
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I like all of those cars. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/thumbup.gif)

Isn't the new Camaro projected to release in the first quarter of 2009? I would hold on to my cash until the cost and weight numbers are released for the new Camaro.
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mitchntx
post May 22 2008, 12:43 AM
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QUOTE (bowtieboy @ May 21 2008, 04:53 PM) *
As tempting as that is, the scratch on the passenger's front blew it for me ..... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


cake eater ... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rant2.gif)

Wow ... I didn't know you had #2 ... it's been a while, eh?

As a father who had 2 girls 2 years apart ... gather enough toys now to tide you over 20 years. Trust me on this ...

And I suggest something that a little dirt, or milk, or ice cream or soda or bubble gum or ... won't hurt.

(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/banghead.gif)

(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/2thumbs.gif)
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bowtieboy
post May 22 2008, 01:32 AM
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QUOTE (mitchntx @ May 21 2008, 07:43 PM) *
QUOTE (bowtieboy @ May 21 2008, 04:53 PM) *
As tempting as that is, the scratch on the passenger's front blew it for me ..... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


cake eater ... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rant2.gif)

......I thought that you would like that (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rotf.gif)

Wow ... I didn't know you had #2 ... it's been a while, eh?

As a father who had 2 girls 2 years apart ... gather enough toys now to tide you over 20 years. Trust me on this ...

And I suggest something that a little dirt, or milk, or ice cream or soda or bubble gum or ... won't hurt.


Thanks for the "fatherly" advice Mitch ......now, do you have any on dealing with the wife (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)


Josh - I thought that I read somewhere a ) that you were selling the Z and b ) something about moving to CA ~ true ?
While I would LOVE to wait for the Z, I think that they're going to be a little too proud for my budget (thinking 30K)
(read into this ~ I can purchase a $25,000 car and purchase 5 grand in parts .....just can't show that kind of money on the car, itself; remember, I'm married !) (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
........are you going to start back autocrossing ?

As for the other comments, towing would only be a limited option and that weighs heavy in thinking about the Z06.....and I complete forgot about that the tires couldn't be rotated front to back ~ something so obvious, yet I still over looked it ~ thanks !

This post has been edited by bowtieboy: May 22 2008, 01:37 AM
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mitchntx
post May 22 2008, 02:19 AM
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QUOTE (bowtieboy @ May 21 2008, 08:32 PM) *
Thanks for the "fatherly" advice Mitch ......now, do you have any on dealing with the wife (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)


Unfortunately, this is an attribute you should have had at the top of your list and not sequestered past yard work and trim painting.

I gotta admit, I'm pretty damned lucky in a lot of ways.
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prockbp
post May 23 2008, 12:53 AM
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QUOTE (bowtieboy @ May 21 2008, 08:32 PM) *
Josh - I thought that I read somewhere a ) that you were selling the Z and b ) something about moving to CA ~ true ?
While I would LOVE to wait for the Z, I think that they're going to be a little too proud for my budget (thinking 30K)
(read into this ~ I can purchase a $25,000 car and purchase 5 grand in parts .....just can't show that kind of money on the car, itself; remember, I'm married !) (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
........are you going to start back autocrossing ?


I am heading towards California. I have been considering rebuilding the IROC for street use, but California laws are a PITA. It looks like I will have to spend ~$4k to get the IROC back to stock so that it can pass a CA inspection. I have also considered converting to a new LSX motor/tranny, but that will be more like 10-12 grand. I really want to keep the IROC forever, but I want to finish engineering school more. It is looking like the car will have to be sold. You are more than welcome to come over, fire it up, and take it for a spin. PM me if you want to talk more about it.

I will start racing again in a few years. But me and my brother have not decided where we're going to race yet. We bought his Trans Am for CMC. My car was bought for Autocross. But we may ditch the cars and race motorcycles instead. You never know, we're both doing pretty well, so we may do all three. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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poSSum
post May 24 2008, 10:08 PM
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QUOTE (prockbp @ May 21 2008, 06:57 PM) *
I like all of those cars. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/thumbup.gif)

Isn't the new Camaro projected to release in the first quarter of 2009? I would hold on to my cash until the cost and weight numbers are released for the new Camaro.


Yes it is. I was in Detroit for a follow up to the focus group we did last year. Got to drive the IVER cars. Crawled all over 4 production ready cars. Got the complete rundown on specs, options, packaging etc. and had to sign a non-disclosure agreement. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) Most of the information should get released at the end of July/early August as that's when the press reveal will take place. Pricing won't be released for some time yet but they're sticking with the line that it will be competitive with a similarly equipped Mustang.

Not sure if anyone here can answer this but what are the chances of the new Camaro ending up in FS when it comes to market with an IRS and over 400 HP?

Of particular interest to this group will be one likeable extra that should show up on the option list.
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bowtieboy
post May 26 2008, 02:49 AM
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QUOTE (poSSum @ May 24 2008, 05:08 PM) *
Yes it is. I was in Detroit for a follow up to the focus group we did last year. Got to drive the IVER cars. Crawled all over 4 production ready cars. Got the complete rundown on specs, options, packaging etc. and had to sign a non-disclosure agreement. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) Most of the information should get released at the end of July/early August as that's when the press reveal will take place. Pricing won't be released for some time yet but they're sticking with the line that it will be competitive with a similarly equipped Mustang.

Not sure if anyone here can answer this but what are the chances of the new Camaro ending up in FS when it comes to market with an IRS and over 400 HP?

Of particular interest to this group will be one likeable extra that should show up on the option list.


Thanks for the update Art......
Knowing you can't give specifics, do you think that it will make for a good autocrosser ? (from what you've seen/know)
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poSSum
post May 26 2008, 05:40 PM
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QUOTE (bowtieboy @ May 25 2008, 09:49 PM) *
QUOTE (poSSum @ May 24 2008, 05:08 PM) *
Yes it is. I was in Detroit for a follow up to the focus group we did last year. Got to drive the IVER cars. Crawled all over 4 production ready cars. Got the complete rundown on specs, options, packaging etc. and had to sign a non-disclosure agreement. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) Most of the information should get released at the end of July/early August as that's when the press reveal will take place. Pricing won't be released for some time yet but they're sticking with the line that it will be competitive with a similarly equipped Mustang.

Not sure if anyone here can answer this but what are the chances of the new Camaro ending up in FS when it comes to market with an IRS and over 400 HP?

Of particular interest to this group will be one likeable extra that should show up on the option list.


Thanks for the update Art......
Knowing you can't give specifics, do you think that it will make for a good autocrosser ? (from what you've seen/know)


I'm optimistic .... the GM Performance Division has been delivering the goods for the last few years ... but have 2 concerns: Will it be an FS car in 2010 and the availability of R's for 20" rims.

As an aside ... a good car for autocross? My wife decided to autoX this year, so we bought a Solstice ZOK to run for a couple of years. That car is a blast ... and for just over $20K off the dealer lot ... how can one go wrong? (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/cool2.gif)

This post has been edited by poSSum: May 26 2008, 07:01 PM
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