Need opinions on a lot of questions, All inside please....... Options

[FASTFATBOY]

Keep in mind this is NOT a dedicated track car, it is a full on street car( I long hauled the Power Tour with it, and may do it again) that gets track day'd.

Keep in mind, I did my first event with a good seat in the car and it was very cold 45* high. Dunno if this was the reason for the push or not but I pushed the car further than I ever have that weekend as it was much easier to drive it hard.


I have Strano springs, 1 LE front bar, stock rear bar, Koni Da on front SA on rear, UMI rotojoints on rear, LCA relocation brackets. UMI frame connectors.


I am debating going after more grip. Since I put a seat in the car I realize whats going on with the car when you push it hard.

275 NT-01/ R888 vs a 315 NT-05, I am looking at cost, I have 2 sets of 17x9.5 wheels. If I move to a 315 I will have to buy all new wheels/spacers/studs and consider wheel bearing wear. The 315 NT-05 is a cheaper tire than the 275 NT-01 or R888 and will last longer I would think. Thoughts on which has more grip and life?

I have noticed a push, it has always had one but now seems much worse on high speed corners .
More rear bar help this?
More camber help this?
Am I trying to enter the corner with too much speed?


I only have 1.1 camber in the front as thats all I can get with stock stuff....I am killing the left front outer edge of the tire.
If I slot the lower control arm holes will I have enough tie rod end to set toe? They look way out now.
Would you buy offset LCA bushings and slot, or one or the other?
Or buy a shorter upper control arm?
I feel I need at least 1.8 camber but how will this effect street tire wear?


Anyone used the Global West front lower control arm bushing kit? Thoughts?

Thanks guys all opinions welcome.

[trackbird]

Based on being a street car...stick with the 275 tire. They fit better and they have a better chance of coming up to temp during more sedate driving (you may never get them "hot", but you'll NEVER get a 315 hot on the street). Less trammeling and rubbing issues too.

Put a 35mm solid front sway bar on it. That will help with the camber loss during body roll. It's counter intuitive to add front bar when you have understeer, but these cars lose camber during body roll. Less roll means less camber loss. So I'd start there. I ran the Global West upper front control arms and I could get -2.2 camber and all the castor I ever wanted (up to about 9 degrees).

Make sure your rear LCA's are "flat" at ride height (or even slightly lower in the front). That causes roll understeer instead of roll oversteer. I never ran relocation brackets on my cars, but if you do....you typically need to drill a hole right between the bracket and the axle bracket (basically through the weld) to get the right height.

Then I'd try a 22mm hollow (or 21mm solid...or the hellwig adjustable kit...which I have one of for sale) on the rear.

[Steve91T]

Before I started the CMC build, my car was a street/track car. Strano spring, Koni adjustable front shocks and Bilstein revalved rears from Strano, Hotchkis front bar, strano rear.

My problem with the Camaro has always been oversteer. It always seemed the front had twice the grip the rear did. This was before Strano's help. I had SLP springs and Hotchkis bars, front and rear. He explained his spring rates and his softer rear bar would help. It did, greatly. Perfectly balanced.

All that nonsense being said, could it be your driving technique? These cars are pretty sensitive to weight transfer. I know you have a ton of track experience, but maybe you picked up a bad habit over the years? What happens if you trail the brakes just a tad going into a tun? Or at least lift enough to set the fronts? If you feel you really do have a problem, what about a sway bar change? They are pretty damn cheap for the amount of change in handling you get. I'm selling my sway bars if you are interested.

I know I keep using this video, but I haven't been on the track in over a year, so it's the best one I have.

You don't have to watch the whole thing, but notice I'm fairly smooth with my turn in with all turns but one. I also trail brake almost always, just a little.

Fast forward to 50 seconds. The sharp, low speed left hand turn, followed by a sharp right hand turn is the only place at VIR where I will push. So, I not only trail brake, but I actually throw the car into the turn. (notice the rapid wheel movement).

Do you have any videos that show the push?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbvX2z4Ta3E...q2A&index=9

This post has been edited by Steve91T: Mar 12 2013, 03:19 PM

[StanIROCZ]

I think more camber will help with the push and reduce tire wear, so yeah, go for it. On a 3rd gen it is easy to tweak the alignment for a 'street' and 'track' settings.... not sure if that is an option for you or not. Otherwise you will have to compromise.

My advice for tires is to get a track set and street set. The cost of the additional set of rims will payoff immediately if you can find a source for scrubs from a pro/semi pro team in your area, and with the added grip the fun factor is doubled (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/2thumbs.gif) Whatever size tire you can readily get from them is what you should go with, assuming it is in the 275-315 and 17-18 ranges you have choices in cheap wheels and they will fit the car. I can get a set of lightly used scrubs mounted and balanced for the cost of 1 tire new…. That sure as heck beats burning up a set of Nittos once a year (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[FASTFATBOY]

Based on being a street car...stick with the 275 tire. They fit better and they have a better chance of coming up to temp during more sedate driving (you may never get them "hot", but you'll NEVER get a 315 hot on the street). Less trammeling and rubbing issues too.

Put a 35mm solid front sway bar on it. That will help with the camber loss during body roll. It's counter intuitive to add front bar when you have understeer, but these cars lose camber during body roll. Less roll means less camber loss. So I'd start there. I ran the Global West upper front control arms and I could get -2.2 camber and all the castor I ever wanted (up to about 9 degrees).

Make sure your rear LCA's are "flat" at ride height (or even slightly lower in the front). That causes roll understeer instead of roll oversteer. I never ran relocation brackets on my cars, but if you do....you typically need to drill a hole right between the bracket and the axle bracket (basically through the weld) to get the right height.

Then I'd try a 22mm hollow (or 21mm solid...or the hellwig adjustable kit...which I have one of for sale) on the rear.

I will keep a 275 setup separate for street only driving, the setup I am asking about will be strictly trtack use.

My rear arms are almost flat with with ground, slight uphill to the body.

[trackbird]

Uphill to the body causes roll oversteer. My apologies for misunderstanding, I read "street car" as "one set of wheels for all around use". 315's will typically be faster around a track. But, if you're only running HPDE, you really aren't out to "win" (I think it was Mitchntx that once said "you can't win practice" during a session at the NASA nationals). So, is the extra tire/wheel expense worth the lap time difference? The problem with HPDE is that it's the "super unlimited" class of racing. There are no lap times and no trophies, but everyone shows up to be the fastest car there...with no rules. So, it's an arms race to "win" the open track day. If it were me, I'd run the 275's and be done with it (wheels are cheaper, tires are probably cheaper, etc). But 315's will typically be faster on a track. Or I'd take Stan's advice and buy wheels that allow you to buy used tires from one of the race series and run those.

I think I'm getting old... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

[Blainefab]

What are your alignment settings and tire pressures, what changes did you make with them to cure the push, and what were the results of those changes?

[FASTFATBOY]

What are your alignment settings and tire pressures, what changes did you make with them to cure the push, and what were the results of those changes?

Alignmnet is 1.1 camber(maxed out) 0 toe.


Alan the track was VERY cold, the high that day was 45* so I treated it like a wet track(my best guess of what to do low grip is low grip). I softened shock compression and lowered tire pressures 2 lbs all around from where I usually start the session. It seemed to have helped.

I found this today, this is the left front shock.This happened at the last event as it is a fresh break. The nut is not cross threaded, I had a squeak in the front end and went looking to find it as the car has never made a peep of any kind.

(IMG:http://i1122.photobucket.com/albums/l528/FASTFATBOY1/20130312_153529_zpsdd611ed0.jpg)


Anyone Koni "connected" to help me out? Shocks about 13 k on them, were new on the car when I bought it. I have no paperwork.

[FASTFATBOY]

Before I started the CMC build, my car was a street/track car. Strano spring, Koni adjustable front shocks and Bilstein revalved rears from Strano, Hotchkis front bar, strano rear.

My problem with the Camaro has always been oversteer. It always seemed the front had twice the grip the rear did. This was before Strano's help. I had SLP springs and Hotchkis bars, front and rear. He explained his spring rates and his softer rear bar would help. It did, greatly. Perfectly balanced.

All that nonsense being said, could it be your driving technique? These cars are pretty sensitive to weight transfer. I know you have a ton of track experience, but maybe you picked up a bad habit over the years? What happens if you trail the brakes just a tad going into a tun? Or at least lift enough to set the fronts? If you feel you really do have a problem, what about a sway bar change? They are pretty damn cheap for the amount of change in handling you get. I'm selling my sway bars if you are interested.

I know I keep using this video, but I haven't been on the track in over a year, so it's the best one I have.

You don't have to watch the whole thing, but notice I'm fairly smooth with my turn in with all turns but one. I also trail brake almost always, just a little.

Fast forward to 50 seconds. The sharp, low speed left hand turn, followed by a sharp right hand turn is the only place at VIR where I will push. So, I not only trail brake, but I actually throw the car into the turn. (notice the rapid wheel movement).

Do you have any videos that show the push?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbvX2z4Ta3E...q2A&index=9

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfFDSB6wzrc

Turn 2-3-4 is one loooong right hander(1:55), it seems I was going through there slower and slower just to get the left front to have ANY grip. Was the broken shock causing this?? When you see the rumble strip on the right I should be able to go flat on the floor in 4th gear and hold it there all the way up the hill into turn 5 braking zone., you hear me crack the gas open and on and off the gas but it was way past there before I can go to the floor with the gas.

And in turn 12, as soon as the car settles after turn in(1:14) I should be on the floor in 4th up that hill, no way could I do it.

Here is a track map

(IMG:http://openpaddock.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/BarberTrackMap-450x279.png)

I do trailbrake, although I didnt KNOW I was doing it as when I was learning to drive the car it was a natural thing to do as it helped the car turn. When I saw video of me from a car behind me it was pointed out by a buddy.


EDIT

Now that I think about it, the car felt funny under braking especially into 7, it felt like the left front was hitting the bumpstop, it was dropping way more than the right front under hard braking. At 2:30 you can see the front of the car "bob" up and down, thats not me doing that.

With effectively having no shock on the left front is this what killed the outside edge of that tire?

This post has been edited by FASTFATBOY: Mar 13 2013, 12:29 AM

[Blainefab]

You just need the tophat, not the whole shock. Call Koni or Strano. Fix the busted stuff, grind the camber slots to get -2deg camber, buy some toe plates, play with toe to see how the car responds. With everything in the ballpark, a small change (2 flats on the tie rods) in toe and/or tire pressure (2psi for example) should give you a noticeable change in the way it turns. Fiddle with that stuff for a couple events, adjust your driving appropriately, then add more go fast parts.

[FASTFATBOY]

You just need the tophat, not the whole shock. Call Koni or Strano. Fix the busted stuff, grind the camber slots to get -2deg camber, buy some toe plates, play with toe to see how the car responds. With everything in the ballpark, a small change (2 flats on the tie rods) in toe and/or tire pressure (2psi for example) should give you a noticeable change in the way it turns. Fiddle with that stuff for a couple events, adjust your driving appropriately, then add more go fast parts.

Alan the shaft is broken. Its a DA shock, how do you change just that part of the shock? What causes that?

What are "toe plates"?

This post has been edited by FASTFATBOY: Mar 13 2013, 12:28 AM

[Blainefab]

You just need the tophat, not the whole shock. Call Koni or Strano. Fix the busted stuff, grind the camber slots to get -2deg camber, buy some toe plates, play with toe to see how the car responds. With everything in the ballpark, a small change (2 flats on the tie rods) in toe and/or tire pressure (2psi for example) should give you a noticeable change in the way it turns. Fiddle with that stuff for a couple events, adjust your driving appropriately, then add more go fast parts.

Alan the shaft is broken. Its a DA shock, how do you change just that part of the shock? What causes that?

What are "toe plates"?

Pull down the rock shield, look under the cup shaped tophat - you'll see a jam nut - loosen the jam nut, tophat unscrews from shock shaft. Replace hat, tighten nut.

The jam nut is a bitch to get a regular tool onto, and it is tight. This guy makes a tool that works:
http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/index.php?showtopic=8350

Toe plates:
http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/product...CFegWMgodA2gA3g

(IMG:http://cdn.racerpartswholesale.com/images/uploads/1531_2258_large.jpg)

[FASTFATBOY]

You just need the tophat, not the whole shock. Call Koni or Strano. Fix the busted stuff, grind the camber slots to get -2deg camber, buy some toe plates, play with toe to see how the car responds. With everything in the ballpark, a small change (2 flats on the tie rods) in toe and/or tire pressure (2psi for example) should give you a noticeable change in the way it turns. Fiddle with that stuff for a couple events, adjust your driving appropriately, then add more go fast parts.

Alan the shaft is broken. Its a DA shock, how do you change just that part of the shock? What causes that?

What are "toe plates"?

Pull down the rock shield, look under the cup shaped tophat - you'll see a jam nut - loosen the jam nut, tophat unscrews from shock shaft. Replace hat, tighten nut.

The jam nut is a bitch to get a regular tool onto, and it is tight. This guy makes a tool that works:
http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/index.php?showtopic=8350

Toe plates:
http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/product...CFegWMgodA2gA3g

(IMG:http://cdn.racerpartswholesale.com/images/uploads/1531_2258_large.jpg)

Duh, I know what toe plates are.

This is a double adjustable shock, the adjuster is in the part that screws off?

[Steve91T]

You have two adjusters? Didn't know they made them. Mine are single adjustable. I had to remove my hats to get the coil over sleeves installed. The jam nut wouldn't budge, so I called Koni and asked them what that hat was for. They said only to hold the dust shield and I could cut it off if I wanted. Wouldn't hurt a thing. So off they came. Now I can get to the jam nut easily if I need to.

Where are your adjusters? Why not call Koni and see what they say? Btw, how does a shock break like that?

[FASTFATBOY]

You have two adjusters? Didn't know they made them. Mine are single adjustable. I had to remove my hats to get the coil over sleeves installed. The jam nut wouldn't budge, so I called Koni and asked them what that hat was for. They said only to hold the dust shield and I could cut it off if I wanted. Wouldn't hurt a thing. So off they came. Now I can get to the jam nut easily if I need to.

Where are your adjusters? Why not call Koni and see what they say? Btw, how does a shock break like that?

I am about to call Koni in a minute.

Yes they are Da's. The top is rebound adjust, bottom "clicker" is compression. You adjust that with a flathead screwdriver.

This post has been edited by FASTFATBOY: Mar 13 2013, 02:29 PM

[FASTFATBOY]

Koni says that part of the shock is in fact THE shaft and does not come off. Alan do you have a pic of what you are talking about?

They will not help me as I am not the original purchaser of the shock.

[trackbird]

They typically say DA's have no warranty since they are for racing use. I had mine rebuilt by truechoice (my rear DA's...after I smashed one) and I wouldn't do that again.

[FASTFATBOY]

They typically say DA's have no warranty since they are for racing use. I had mine rebuilt by truechoice (my rear DA's...after I smashed one) and I wouldn't do that again.

Why not? Price, turn around time? What?

This post has been edited by FASTFATBOY: Mar 13 2013, 02:30 PM

[trackbird]

They leaked in pretty short order. They changed the gas pressure from Koni specs (I wanted a "stock rebuild" and I had the shock and the shock shaft shortened). By the time I was done, I spent $500+ on rebuilding a pair of rear shocks and they didn't hold up well at all. Next time I'll toss them and just buy a new set (or maybe send them directly to Koni).

[FASTFATBOY]

They leaked in pretty short order. They changed the gas pressure from Koni specs (I wanted a "stock rebuild" and I had the shock and the shock shaft shortened). By the time I was done, I spent $500+ on rebuilding a pair of rear shocks and they didn't hold up well at all. Next time I'll toss them and just buy a new set (or maybe send them directly to Koni).

Koni has a 5-7 week turnaround, ughhhhhhh.