Rebuildable 4th gen front hubs are here!! Options

[marka]

Howdy,

Thanks Mark!

If your reading this and want to get on the pre order list, but don't want to join the forum to do so, please call me. 303-710-9297.

Turns out they aren't seeing this.... I already sent along your phone # to them, but this forum is private for members only.

Not sure why that would be especially...

Mark

[kookamunga]

dude you rock! that's some incredible workmanship

wish I had not just changed hubs (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) but I'll pass the word along to everyone here in Hawaii

[00 SS]

Thanks again Mark. I did get a call from one of them already.

Kookamunga, if you're running the big tires, you'll need them soon anyway. I appreciate you passing the word along.

[Cr0usEEE]

mark me down as "waiting for SEB confirmation"

[marka]

Howdy,

mark me down as "waiting for SEB confirmation"

Mark me down as "you can protest my ass if you want to, I think they're legal".

:-)

Mark

[Cr0usEEE]

Howdy,

mark me down as "waiting for SEB confirmation"

Mark me down as "you can protest my ass if you want to, I think they're legal".

:-)

Mark

Remember what you think and what the powers that be think are two different things...just like any form of regulation. (Officer...I thought the speed limit was 55...well son it is 55 when its not night during deer season. Conditions of the road BS...grrrr)

Well that protest could be worth...oh 600-1200 hoosier bucks to someone. I would rather know something that costs 1300 bucks is legal before dropping coin on it. Not saying the ESP crowd would protest it but if I happen to win a national event I would hate someone holding it over my head for the rest of my solo career as a cheater of some sort.

Now I would be all over this if I was running a track rat.

[marka]

Howdy,

Remember what you think and what the powers that be think are two different things...just like any form of regulation. (Officer...I thought the speed limit was 55...well son it is 55 when its not night during deer season. Conditions of the road BS...grrrr)

Well that protest could be worth...oh 600-1200 hoosier bucks to someone. I would rather know something that costs 1300 bucks is legal before dropping coin on it. Not saying the ESP crowd would protest it but if I happen to win a national event I would hate someone holding it over my head for the rest of my solo career as a cheater of some sort.

Now I would be all over this if I was running a track rat.

Oh, I'm aware of all that, no worries.

I still think they're legal.

And if I get protested and lose, then you can bet that everyone else at the next event better have OEM original hubs and not ones from Autozone. :-)

And guys with the Fay's Watt's link had better not have removed the factory chassis brace (some call it a panhard brace... :-).

And probably ton's of other little nitpicky shit that's technically illegal, and moreso (IMHO, obviously) than a replacement hub that exactly matches factory dimensions & functionality.

Oh! And your sfcs better not "attach previously unconnected frame rails" or whatever the hell stupid phrasing they used... Since by definition the front/rear subframes are connected since the car doesn't split in half when you drive away.

Mark

(actually, if I get protested and lose I'll appeal, etc. and live with it. But I don't think I'll lose.)

This post has been edited by marka: Jan 9 2009, 07:18 PM

[Sam Strano]

And guys with the Fay's Watt's link had better not have removed the factory chassis brace (some call it a panhard brace... :-).

Why? The Watts link replaces that part as well as the PHB itself, and lateral locating devices are free. The Watts link is a legal part, and it replaces both the PHB and the brace both. 100% legal.

[Cr0usEEE]

And guys with the Fay's Watt's link had better not have removed the factory chassis brace (some call it a panhard brace... :-).

Why? The Watts link replaces that part as well as the PHB itself, and lateral locating devices are free. The Watts link is a legal part, and it replaces both the PHB and the brace both. 100% legal.

And that legality question I have already asked. That whole suspension points are free for solid axle cars are kinda nice.

How else do the mustangs had a panhard bar?

[marka]

Howdy,

And guys with the Fay's Watt's link had better not have removed the factory chassis brace (some call it a panhard brace... :-).

Why? The Watts link replaces that part as well as the PHB itself, and lateral locating devices are free. The Watts link is a legal part, and it replaces both the PHB and the brace both. 100% legal.

Maybe. Depends what you call the piece that bolts in between the left chassis rail and the phb mount. If you call it part of the chassis, I'm not convinced the rules allow you to remove it.

Similarly, I'm not convinced the rules allow you to cut off the factory PHB chassis mount and replace it with something else. Either both should be legal or neither should.

I sent email to the SEB about it a while back, but haven't heard anything.

Either way, that's a hell of a lot more grey to me than a stock replacement hub, which was the point of my tirade. :-)

Mark

[marka]

How else do the mustangs had a panhard bar?

The mustangs have a panhard bar because they can add one without removing existing parts of the chassis.

Mark

(fwiw, I want the Fays watts link to be legal. I just don't think its as cut and dried as some do. Similarly I think as written its impossible to have a legal SFC.)

[marka]

Howdy,

Anyway.. Sorry for sh*tting up the advertiser thread. Kevin, feel free to remove all this crap.

Short version is that I think the hubs are legal in FS and don't have a problem installing them. Protest me if you disagree.

Mark

[GlennCMC70]

let get this right? $1300 for a pair plus core, right?

[00 SS]

let get this right? $1300 for a pair plus core, right?

Thats correct except you will need to add shipping as well. Shipping is to the lower 48 will typically be about $50 with insurance.

This post has been edited by 00 SS: Jan 11 2009, 05:34 PM

[00 SS]

Howdy,

Anyway.. Sorry for sh*tting up the advertiser thread. Kevin, feel free to remove all this crap.

Short version is that I think the hubs are legal in FS and don't have a problem installing them. Protest me if you disagree.

Mark

I don't mind you adding to the thread Mark. The fact is, legality in certain classes is important to some and as soon as we have an official answer I'll post it up.

I know the SEB/SAC/SPAC are considering this now. So, if you want these to be legal, it might be helpful to send a letter in support of them. If you do so, please be brief and polite. You might even want to send a letter similar to mine restating the question rather than simply supporting my request. I wrote my letter from the perspective of a competitor, not as the owner of the product.

This is what I sent:

Dear members of the SEB,

I am writing you to make sure a certain part I would like use is legal, I believe it is, but would like confirmation. The part is a front wheel hub for my 2000 Camaro SS that I drive in E Street Prepared. On this model, and all 1993 through 2002 Camaros and Firebirds, the entire hub assembly must be replaced in order to replace the wheel bearings as the hub is a sealed unit.

I use 315/35/17 Hoosier tires on the car for competition and the added grip causes the hubs to wear out very quickly. I have been averaging 10 runs on new hubs before they are worn enough to need replacement. I have tried AC Delco from the dealer and Timken hubs from Autozone with similar results for each brand. When they wear, the bearings get play and the wheel moves in ways it’s not supposed to. This movement is transferred into the rotor, which in turn knocks the brake pads back away from the rotor. As a result, the brake pedal travel becomes very long and occasionally goes to the floor on the first application after a few offsets or slalom cones. When the hubs wear to this point they must be replaced.

I have found a hub by an alternate manufacturer that seems to last much longer. I used it all summer season in 2008 without the bearings wearing out. In fact, they are still in good condition. It is a direct replacement that is dimensionally, visually and functionally essentially identical to original or auto part store replacements. Visually, it is nearly impossible to tell one from the other. I have attached a photo of an AC Delco Hub from the dealer and the hub I would like to use.

Obviously, there is another difference other than simple longevity, or I wouldn’t need any confirmation of the legality in ESP. Unlike other replacement hubs, this one is rebuildable. It uses typical tapered roller style wheel bearings and races. So, not only does it last longer than any other replacement hub I’ve used, it can be rebuilt for a fraction of the cost of other replacement hubs. I believe the rebuildable version meets the requirements of the rule below because it is essentially identical to standard hubs in every respect except that after the initial purchase, it can be rebuilt for far less cost. Otherwise, it replaces the original hubs exactly as any other replacement part would. The only drawback to the rebuildable version is that it is slightly heavier, approximately a half pound, than the original hubs. But, for me, not having to replace them every other event far out weighs the weight disadvantage.

From the 2008 Solo 2 rule book:

"Alternate components which are normally expendable and
considered replacement parts (e.g., engine and wheel bearings,
seals, gaskets, filters, belts, bolts, bulbs, batteries, brake rotors,
clutch discs, pressure plates, suspension bushings, drivetrain
mounts, etc.) may be used provided they are essentially identical to
the standard parts (e.g. have the same type, size, hardness, weight,
material etc.), are used in the same location, and provide no
performance benefit. The allowance for use of such replacements
does not include camshafts, differential covers, or ring-and-pinion
sets, nor does it authorize the use of piston rings having different
configurations (e.g. “Total Seal”) from those of the original."

Please let me know if there is any other information I can provide to help you make you decision.

Thank you for your time in considering this matter.

So, if you have any other angle you think might help convince them or you just want to let them know how you feel, it can't hurt.

[sgarnett]

Fwiw, I've verified with a dial indicator that I can take a brand new hub past the gm maximum wear spec in one day of autocross. That's with both Delco and Timken branded hubs. So, it isn't just a subjective or braking performance issue.

I also get much better life from original hubs as long as they are reinstalled on the same side of the car they came from (it matters). However, the supply of low mileage oe hubs is drying up.

Long story short, all known stock replacements are a safety hazard.

[00 SS]

That would be useful info for the SEB to consider. Please send them a quick letter either as a supplement to mine or as a stand alone request to clarify that a rebuildable version is in fact legal.

[marka]

Howdy,

Mine:

Howdy,

I understand the SEB / SPAC is probably considering the legality of some
new-to-the-market replacement wheel bearings / hubs for a 4th gen ('93-'02)
f-body.

My question boils down to if a replacement hub assembly may be used that is
exactly identical in dimension, weight, and intended function to the
original hub assembly, although the internals are slightly different. In
this case, the replacement hub uses tapered roller bearings that are user
serviceable while the OE hub is not user serviceable (I don't know what kind
of bearings are in it).

I believe this is legal in FS (and thus ESP) via Stock's rule:

""Alternate components which are normally expendable and considered
replacement parts (e.g., engine and wheel bearings, seals, gaskets, filters,
belts, bolts, bulbs, batteries, brake rotors, clutch discs, pressure plates,
suspension bushings, drivetrain mounts, etc.) may be used provided they are
essentially identical to the standard parts (e.g. have the same type, size,
hardness, weight, material etc.), are used in the same location, and provide
no performance benefit."

Since the OE hub is a non-serviceable part and this new hub replaces it
exactly in every dimensional and weight way, I believe it would be legal to
run. Conversely, if its _not_ legal to run I believe that many "parts
store" hub assemblies that aren't exactly identical (down to the particular
type of steel used for the bearing race, etc.) would also be illegal and I
can't imagine that's the point of this rule.

Thanks for your attention to this!

Mark Andy
#266492

I suppose its fine to point out the safety issues, but you might want to be a little careful about how you do that. You could also fix those issues by removing the 4th gen fbody from ESP. :-) Historically, exceptions to address a particular car model's weaknesses get no weight.

In this particular case, I believe the rule just allows them as its written, no justification (or even clarification) necessary.

Mark

[Chevy053]

Mike

You can put me down for a set on the list. I am hoping that even if you don't get 20 sets the machine work costs wolnt send the price up too high. These are getting close to the limit of what I think I am willing to spend.

Any idea on how long you may wait to try to fill up at least 20 spots?

Thanks

This post has been edited by Chevy053: Jan 16 2009, 08:50 PM

[00 SS]

Thank you. You're on the list.

Additionally, if any other autocrossers want to send a letter it might reinforce to the SEB that the wear problems are not isolated. It may also show that more than just a couple people would like to see them be declared legal.