Lots of questions..., need input Options

[FASTFATBOY]

First off thanks for all the help so far, first HPDE went great. Was bumped to intermediate on day two and was allowed to solo, with the brakes smoked lol!

The car will get the following mods before the next HPDE. Car is a 99 six speed z28.

C6 front brakes
Cooling ducts
Pcs power steering pump and cooler
Rear swaybar (maybe)
Bar and belts (maybe)

I will add more questions as I think of them, to start.....

On the brake conversion I will use Kore3 stuff, I already have track brackets... do I use c5 or c6 rotors?
Where is the cheapest source for rotors and Hawk pads? Do I need special rotors such as dba?

What pad do I use on the front? I used dtc30 on front and HP+ on rear with stock calipers Use the same stuff with the conversion?

Cooling ducts....

Cheapest parts source. Do I use the black or Orange hose? Can I use the foglight holes for air intake? If so what do you use to go behind it? If not what duct to go into the air deflector under the car? I will use Blaine Fab ducts on the rotors.

Crotch belt, stock belts and 5 point harnesses with WS6 seats...

Put a hole in the seat bottom for the crotch belt? Trim shop do this? Pics?

To use both sets of belts, anyone seen an eyebolt the same thread as the factory bolt? That way I can clip the lap belts in and out in the factory location. Will that work? Will it clear the seat bottom?

The car does have some push,oversteer. Has a 1le bar on the front and a stock rear bar.what rear bar would compliment the front one? Has all UMI roto joints on the rear.

EDIT....

What underdrive pulley? I was told to stay away from ASP. This should help the PS.

Thanks guys.

This post has been edited by FASTFATBOY: Mar 31 2011, 03:58 PM

[trackbird]

C6 rotors are more durable than the C5's, so I'd use C6 rotors.

Brake ducts...Search for a post from Jon A here about his LT1 brake ducts using NACA ducts. You might want to at least look at it (if you can't find it, I'll dig it up...just let me know).

PS cooler. Look for the words "Baker Precision", posted by Jon A and that should help you there (I have one of those coolers that I will likely sell you once I get it back off of the car, but they are really inexpensive new as well).

Search for "Turn One" here and you'll find good info on P/S pumps...basically I'd buy theirs and probably their pulley too.

I'd use a 35-36mm front sway bar to reduce camber loss due to body roll (that improves front grip). Then anywhere from a stock to 21mm solid or 22 hollow rear bar (or an adjustable 22mm rear from hellwig which I can get you, as can Alan Blaine or Sam Strano).

The lower temp brake hose should be fine (of the two).

Properly, you should have the seat cut for the crotch strap. I'm not sure it's it's possible, but it's the proper way to install belts. Optionally consider a track day seat that you can bolt in and out.

I believe Alan Blaine has posted some seat belt bolt ideas/info regarding stock belts and harness clip in mounts here somewhere (I think a search will find that one too, not trying to be a pain about the search I just don't have time to go find all of these at this very moment).


Now, if you overheated the brakes on your first track day (on street tires and not making "huge" hp), I suspect that's partially the driver. Smooth inputs, controlled braking and such will reduce heat in the brakes and often new drivers tend to dive in and stab the pedal (as well as other forms of brake abuse). But I am not familiar with the track you were on. Ducts can't hurt, but you may find that with more experience they are not required (until you go to race rubber, etc).

Shifting understeer/oversteer is often the driver as well. Late braking can upset a car and cause a push on corner entry (or trail braking oversteer) and early throttle can loosen up a car on corner exit. I'd still do the 35-36mm front bar, but you may find that the car becomes more neutral as you gain experience (I'm not picking on you, this is something that more than a few members here have already seen first hand).

[Alien]

Now, if you overheated the brakes on your first track day (on street tires and not making "huge" hp), I suspect that's partially the driver. Smooth inputs, controlled braking and such will reduce heat in the brakes and often new drivers tend to dive in and stab the pedal (as well as other forms of brake abuse). But I am not familiar with the track you were on. Ducts can't hurt, but you may find that with more experience they are not required (until you go to race rubber, etc).

Careful Kevin. This guy could pass every car in Novice except one really fast one. Mitch already tried unsuccessfully to go down that road.
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/road-racing/...-i-learned.html

Funny you mention searching. Seems to be a theme.

and no I have not done alot of research, although I have done some

This post has been edited by Alien: Mar 31 2011, 04:08 PM

[FASTFATBOY]

Bird, there's no rear bar to compliment the 1le front bar?

The car did feel pretty neutral in its current setup, it did push when I missed turn ins due to the brakes and driver error.

Car was never loose on warm tires.

Is John A's car a blue lt1 car with zr1 wheels and movit brakes? If so I read his site. His Naca ducts are close to where the foglight are on a ls car, will this location work for air intake?

What underdrive pulley? Was told to stay away from ASP.


The search function on here doesn't like me much Lmao.

[trackbird]

Bird, there's no rear bar to compliment the 1le front bar?

Yes, it's a 21mm solid rear or you can use a 22mm hollow rear (or the adjustable I mentioned).

The car did feel pretty neutral in its current setup, it did push when I missed turn ins due to the brakes and driver error.

Car was never loose on warm tires.

I'd have to see the complete run down of parts that are on the car (springs, shocks, shock settings, PHB, LCA's, wheels, tires, etc) to say for sure, but that doesn't surprise me that it's pretty neutral until "mishandled". That's pretty typical of these cars. Again, not giving you a hard time, but being new, you'll make mistakes that basically equate to "mishandling" the car (abrupt inputs, etc). It's not taking a shot at you, it's just calling it what it is and we've all done it. No worries. Practice, practice, practice....that's the cure.

Is John A's car a blue lt1 car with zr1 wheels and movit brakes? If so I read his site. His Naca ducts are close to where the foglight are on a ls car, will this location work for air intake?

Yup, that's Jon's car. It's a well sorted car and Jon has done some pretty neat things with the setup. Always worth looking at options/ideas. The fog light holes will probably work "ok". I think there's a thread on here discussing that as well. I can't remember if any testing was done and if results were posted or not. If I was going to do them, I'd probably put a duct behind the holes and adapt it to the hole somehow or use one of the hose adaptors (that adapts down from a larger hose) and see if I could make it fit, slip on, tape and rivets, etc to the fog light "snout" in the nose.

What underdrive pulley? Was told to stay away from ASP.

Turn one makes a pulley for the PS pump. The factory one is plastic. It's not about over/under drive, it's about durability and I'd consider buying their pulley with the pump. I'd look at an ATI balancer with underdrive built into it. It's not cheap, but cheap and "good" don't often come in the same box.

The search function on here doesn't like me much Lmao.

Try the terms and names I gave you and see where that gets you. If you honestly try and can't find stuff, let me know and I'll try to get time to dig it up and post links.

[Blainefab]

I believe Alan Blaine has posted some seat belt bolt ideas/info regarding stock belts and harness clip in mounts here somewhere (I think a search will find that one too, not trying to be a pain about the search I just don't have time to go find all of these at this very moment).

There's some good info in this one: http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/index.php?showtopic=11614

Try:
search
more search options
keyword: harness, filter by: blainefab, all forums, any date, search entire post, show results as posts

You'll find a lot of my posts on wiring harness, keep going - most of the seat harness stuff was covered years ago.

[trackbird]

And for some points of reference, I ran my 3rd gen and Andy J's 4th gen at Nashville Super Speedway at a track day some time ago (my car is about 380 hp at the flywheel and Andy's car dyno'd around or just over 400 hp at the rear wheels and is "full weight" LT1 car with a roll bar and race seats) . At the end of the front straight I was running (per Andy's GPS) 125 mph into the brake zone (123 mph in my car). Braking from 125-70 as I came down off of the banking and across the apron and then 65-25 mph "right behind the first brake zone". Essentially a 125-25 mph brake zone with about 100 feet of coasting in the middle. I ran C4HD brakes (13x1.1" rotors) with Hawk HP+ pads and Hawk HPS rear pads on factory 3rd gen rear disks. Andy had some Raybestos ST41 and ST42 (as I remember) pads on LS1 factory brakes. I had NO brake issues all weekend in either car. No boiled fluid, no warped rotors, no trashed pads, and no brake fade...NONE. Both cars were on street tires with no brake ducts and once I got through verifying my car wasn't going to melt anything expensive (it was a fresh build we were shaking down at the time), I ran that car reasonably hard...smoothly.

I'm going to say that you'll learn to be easier on brakes with more experience...based on my experience (and that of many others here).

[Blainefab]

On the brake conversion I will use Kore3 stuff, I already have track brackets... do I use c5 or c6 rotors?

What pad do I use on the front? I used dtc30 on front and HP+ on rear with stock calipers Use the same stuff with the conversion?

The car does have some push,oversteer. Has a 1le bar on the front and a stock rear bar.what rear bar would compliment the front one? Has all UMI roto joints on the rear.

Team Chev has good prices on OEM GM parts. Base C6 rotors are preferred. No holes or slots.

A lot of my customers prefer Raybestos race pads ST41 front, ST42 rear.

Push is front tires sliding, oversteer is rear tires sliding - if the car is doing both on a given lap then the setup is in the ballpark, you just have to figure out what you are doing to make each happen, and under what conditions - then use that knowledge to your advantage. A good instructor can help a lot.

GM did make a 1LE rear bar, 21mm. Everything else being the same it will make the car tend to oversteer more (looser). Not expensive, but if you end up dropping the panhard you'll want an even bigger one, so I probably wouldn't change it at this point.

Do you have a link to a description of the car? We don't do monster sigs here, but useful to know where a car is at.

This post has been edited by Blainefab: Mar 31 2011, 07:01 PM

[FASTFATBOY]

Doh! I meant push/UNDERSTEER.

The abs was inoperative, I damaged the harness when I put it on the trailer,I locked up the front once to find where lockup was. Could that have made the brakes do goofy things?

Link to what the car has, in addition I installed UMI roto joints in the rear,lca relocation brackets, Hawk dtc30 front HP+ rear, free mods to engine, super blue fluid.


http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/vehicle-clas...trano-more.html

Thanks guys.

This post has been edited by FASTFATBOY: Mar 31 2011, 09:04 PM

[FASTFATBOY]

Alien, I can take any criticism. I am, in fact very proud of my first trackday accomplishments. It did feel VERY good passing cars and keeping up with cars that cost 8 times what my car AND tow vehicle cost.

To be clear I didn't feel like I was hard on the brakes, maybe I was. I am here to learn and ears are on.
Here is some video, pewter z28

I show up in this one at 3 min 30 seconds, camera car is the 911 s4

www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4XwVerJTzE

www.youtube.com/watch?v=43AfykdBOP4

This post has been edited by FASTFATBOY: Mar 31 2011, 09:01 PM

[Casey_SS]

FATBOY - welcome to the addiction (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) You seem to be going down the exact same path I took (same parts selection, etc.) so here's where I ended up:

Brakes - C6 rotors from www.racingbrake.com - same price as rockauto.com but much tighter quality control. Wilwood EXP 600 fluid - I was boiling the ATE stuff. Carbotech XP10 front, HPS rear - tried XP12 & XP16s and like the feel of the 10s better...plus they're cheaper. Wilwood proportioning valve - I had to dial the rears down pretty low to get rid of brake hop. I used regular orange ducts but wrapped them with gaffer's tape - they've lasted 3 years with no issues, largely because gaffer's tape is badass (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I mounted NACA ducts from www.ioportracing.com to the front airdam with some wire mesh in front. On an LT1 car at least, I couldn't route them to the foglight holes without ripping out everything behind the bumper, which I didn't want to do at the time. Everyone says it should overheat from doing that but it runs around 210 in Texas heat with an oil cooler in front of the ac condenser and a power steering cooler behind the stock radiator. All with a motor making over 400rwhp. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/dunno.gif)

Safety - I would strongly recommend an FIA-approved seat and properly mounted harness along with a HANS device. May seem like overkill in DE but impacts are impacts and they don't care what class you're in. I half-assed my seat and harness (always wore a HANS though) for a while but it always made me nervous and things I've seen since make me feel really lucky I never "tested" that setup.

Suspension - I really like Sam Strano's 35mm front bar with the stock 19mm rear bar. This is with the Eibach LT1 (650/160) springs and Koni Yellows....your results may vary. Unless the car is doing something you really don't like and it doesn't sound like that's the case, I wouldn't change anything aside from alignment settings for a while. Some guys change suspension stuff like underwear looking for a magic setup but once the car is reasonably balanced - there isn't one. It's all about seat time.

Hope this helps...
Casey
AIX #29

[nape]

You don't know what crappy brakes are until you run the 10.5" single piston brakes. Ran all the way through HPDE3 on them and Autozone Lifetime pads and I'd have to push the brake markers back 50' a lap after the first 3 laps. I ran my first 4 RACES in American Iron with Hawk Blue pads on that setup.

The 12" LS1 brakes are good if you run the right pads, bed them in, and don't abuse them. That was an awesome upgrade from the 10.5" stuff. I got my first win running those brakes. I'd save your brake ugrade money and use it on safety equipment and track time.

Most new drivers overbrake and brake too late thinking it's the fast way to drive. If you learn how to carry speed through the corner, you don't have to use the brakes as hard. Easier on equipment and saves you money. Instead of working on the brakes, work on your driving, use the fact that the brakes don't last help you carry momentum.

[edit] After looking at the FS ad, you have way more car then you realize. My first track car was a 186k mile Formula with stock struts/springs, etc. Hell, I ran over-the-counter Gabriel struts for a year on the race car and got my first win doing it. "Go-faster" stuff hides driving flaws. Don't upgrade a thing unless it increases reliability or safety and learn to use what you already have.

This post has been edited by nape: Apr 1 2011, 06:56 AM

[FASTFATBOY]

Ok, the general consensus seems to be I don't need a brake upgrade at this point, so what pads and what's the best way to get cooling ducts on stock brakes?

If this is in fact all I need for a while, I will fix the power steering issues, put the right pads on the car with cooling ducts and the bar and belts in the car I bought out of the classifieds on here along with frame connectors.

[trackbird]

There is still a benefit to the C5 stuff. It is better, and more importantly, consumables are cheaper (C5 rotors specifically...they used to be about $25 each). I won't tell you not to upgrade the brakes, I think it will save you money on parts and wear items. I am simply saying that I think you should have had more brakes than you did and I suspect you're "beating" on the brakes...which is common at first. You should have had sufficient brakes for a street tire track day and Nape is right, you do have a whole lot of car under you.

[FASTFATBOY]

Just bought a C6 kit from Kore3 with stainless hoses for $438 shipped, no pads or rotors. These say Corvette on them, he was out of the plain ones.

Do I need a proportioning valve on the rear?

Good pad combo for this setup?

[trackbird]

No prop valve needed specifically for the brakes. Just install the brakes with the Corvette calipers and the bias will remain the same as stock.

[mitchntx]

Just bought a C6 kit from Kore3 with stainless hoses for $438 shipped, no pads or rotors. These say Corvette on them, he was out of the plain ones.

Do I need a proportioning valve on the rear?

Good pad combo for this setup?

Prop valve only needed if you remove ABS

Pad choice is as unique as motor oil choice. I've run several brands and really like Carbotech XP10s in the front and XP8s in the rear

[FASTFATBOY]

Mitch, that a track only setup?

Brake ducts, yes or no?

Will the pads I have fit the vette brake abutment brackets?

Bird you ready to sell that ps cooler setup?

[GlennCMC70]

Mitch's set-up is being used for track only. He has duct's, I don't (both are CMC2 cars).

The other questions you asked here I answered in a response to your last PM.

[FASTFATBOY]

Thanks Glen, and to all of you guys, I know I ask a lot of questions. And there will be more forthcoming lol.

Just want to be prepared for my next outing and not make a dumb mistake.

Although it appears as though next fall may be the soonest for me to get back to the track. Too Damn hot down here in Alabama in the summer.