Fluid temps Options

[JimMueller]

I took my daily driver to a little road race practice course today. Each lap was only a minute and I'd stay out there for only 5-10 minutes. The first session I just wanted to work on tire temps, then I let it cool down. I actually logged the second session and have some questions.

Water temp: I live in Florida, so I run 100% distilled water with maybe 1-2 bottles of water wetter. After 7 laps, I noticed the coolant temp was at the 3/4 mark so I brought the car in. The scan tool later revealed the temp had peaked at 244*. Isn't that a bit warm? Solutions?

Brakes: In the front I have standard C6 calipers, Trackbrackets, DTC-30 pads, new standard C6 rotors. In the rear I have Powerslot rotors and HPS pads. All stainless lines and using SRF fluid. While it didn't have a problem stopping, the pedal became easier to depress and started grabbing hard closer to the floor. I didn't like the feel of this, how do I remedy it?

The log also shows it was pulling 4* of timing on all WOT sections. I bet I have a knock sensor code (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

[JimMueller]

Here's some tire data if someone can confirm my thoughts. 315/35/17 A6's on 17x11 wheels. Link to the track diagram is here. All the outside corners are off-camber.

Corner Out/Ctr/In/Pressure
LF 167/161/161/42.5*
LR 136/145/141/37.5*

Corner In/Ctr/Out/Pressure
RF 156/143/140/42.5*
RR 140/145/133/38.5

Do any of those numbers indicate I should tweak my camber or caster? Because I didn't have a compressor, I started the first session with 35* in all four tires which I assumed would be too high and I could just bleed it off. It seems like dropping 1psi drops the center temp about 3*, so I planned to use these pressures on the third session (which I didn't run because of the water temp concerns):

LF 43.5
LR 35.5
RF 44.5
RR 35.5

The handling was decent for the most part. I used 3rd gear in the increasing radius sweeper and the rear end wanted to slowly slide out on me. After the sweeper it straightens out for before a ~60* right hand turn going into a S-curve. I tried braking late every time for that hard turn and never engaged the ABS, but the soft pedal (which returned to normal on the way home) gave me concern. The pavement in the middle of the S-curve gave me traction problems because it is rough.

I've been there a number of times in the past (when I had a built LS1 instead of a built LS3), and I think I usually used 2nd gear in that increasing radius sweeper because I remember having to shift. I'm not sure what's quicker to the 60* turn...leaving it in 3rd all the way, or using 2nd (which will cause more traction problems and less speed in the sweeper) and then shift as necessary.

Front suspension is Koni DA's with 650# springs and 35mm solid bar. Rear suspension is Koni DA's with 300# springs,UE lowered PHB, 24mm solid bar, UETA, UE LCA's. I finally got around to adding the 1/2 turn of preload Sean suggested last September. I'll check the zip ties today when I put the street tires back on.

[JimMueller]

The zip ties are maybe 1-1.5" from the botom of the loop, whereas they had been only a few millimeters from falling off before.

I also checked my fluids this morning and something odd about the oil. The dipstick is registering the level at the 'o' after the 'Operating Range' phrase on the dipstick, which correlates to being about 2" too high. They showed me the oil level on the dipstick before I left and it was only ~3/8" above the hash. What would cause the oil volume to increase?

[Blainefab]

Hot outside on the LF is normal on a right turn course, hot inside on the RF is from camber during braking. Hot middle in the rear indicates too much pressure.

Temps overall seem low for A6's on a road course - was is cool/cloudy? Were temps taken by someone else immediately after stopping the car? Probe type thermocouple or IR?

The folks that I know running A6's on a road course regard them as one hot lap tires, for TT, not continuous lapping. You should be able to by with more on a short course like this one, but if they get greasy all of a sudden after a few laps they need to cool down.

My direct Hoosier experience was with R3S03's of 7yrs ago, I was running mid to high 30's cold pressure and the car would feel good for 5 laps and then go to grease. I took some good advice and dropped cold pressure to 27psi - the car felt a little sloppier on turn in but grip was equivalent and lasted the whole 15 lap race.

[JimMueller]

It was bright but cloudy, should've been in the mid-to-upper 80's. Temps had to wait until I was parked, which involved driving on gravel and grass, and I took them myself as quickly as I could. Probe pyrometer. I know not ideal, but the best I could do.

Upon dismounting the A6's today, I found I corded both front tires on the inside, and one of the rears has a screw in the middle of the contact patch.

[JimMueller]

Alan - do you sell any complete cooling kits which will fit on a street car without any problems? For oil & water. I've go the LS3 so there's a few more wires running along the block, as well as the knock sensor harnesses to the side-mounted KR sensors. I'd be interested in kit(s) which include gauges and absolutely all accessories (including tidy gauge mounting, all tubing and connectors, etc). I removed the plastic ducting in front of the radiator many years ago. I don't know if those missing shrouds are part of the equation.

I also replaced the EVAP solenoid Friday night, and I noticed when I got to the site and went to fill up, that when I opened the gas cap it made a PSSH sound, which it never does. Someone on another forum asked if my oil smelled like gas, and it sort of does. Perhaps the EVAP has a role in the high oil level?

This post has been edited by JimMueller: Mar 28 2011, 02:22 AM

[Blainefab]

Alan - do you sell any complete cooling kits which will fit on a street car without any problems? For oil & water. I've go the LS3 so there's a few more wires running along the block, as well as the knock sensor harnesses to the side-mounted KR sensors. I'd be interested in kit(s) which include gauges and absolutely all accessories (including tidy gauge mounting, all tubing and connectors, etc). I removed the plastic ducting in front of the radiator many years ago. I don't know if those missing shrouds are part of the equation.

I also replaced the EVAP solenoid Friday night, and I noticed when I got to the site and went to fill up, that when I opened the gas cap it made a PSSH sound, which it never does. Someone on another forum asked if my oil smelled like gas, and it sort of does. Perhaps the EVAP has a role in the high oil level?

Jim - I couldn't do a plug and play system on a modified street car, too many variables that would require customization.

The radiator shrouding, both in front and rear of the radiator, and the chin air deflector, are important parts of the cooling system, need
to be in place to operate correctly.

Does your evap purge line empty into the intake manifold? Why did you replace the solenoid?

[JimMueller]

Alan - do you sell any complete cooling kits which will fit on a street car without any problems? For oil & water. I've go the LS3 so there's a few more wires running along the block, as well as the knock sensor harnesses to the side-mounted KR sensors. I'd be interested in kit(s) which include gauges and absolutely all accessories (including tidy gauge mounting, all tubing and connectors, etc). I removed the plastic ducting in front of the radiator many years ago. I don't know if those missing shrouds are part of the equation.

I also replaced the EVAP solenoid Friday night, and I noticed when I got to the site and went to fill up, that when I opened the gas cap it made a PSSH sound, which it never does. Someone on another forum asked if my oil smelled like gas, and it sort of does. Perhaps the EVAP has a role in the high oil level?

Jim - I couldn't do a plug and play system on a modified street car, too many variables that would require customization.

The radiator shrouding, both in front and rear of the radiator, and the chin air deflector, are important parts of the cooling system, need
to be in place to operate correctly.

Does your evap purge line empty into the intake manifold? Why did you replace the solenoid?

I'll have to see what I can find used for the front shrouding. The EVAP line connects to the front of the manifold. The retaining clip on the manifold side of the tube had broken, and I got a good deal on a brand new solenoid and tube. I only wanted the tube, but installed the new solenoid just because mine was 12 years old.

[JimMueller]

I bought used versions and replaced the upper radiator mount (which had been modified to use the FTRA), the upper radiator baffle (same), and installed a used lower radiator baffle which has been off since probably 1999 or 2000.

I spoke with LGM about the cooling concerns to see what they had used in their WC Camaro. They suggested starting with an oil cooler setup; cooling the oil may also bring down the water temp. But they only sold an adapter as well as the $1300 radiator with an included oil cooler.

Casey posted a parts list for what I presume was an LT1 in this thread: http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/index.php?sho...hl=mocal+setrab

Are those parts compatible & desirable for my scenario? Back in '97 I bought but never used a trans cooler setup from Art Carr, and it included a Setrab 970516 series, P/N 619NPT38. It appears to be an 18 row unit. Could I use this cooler for anything on this car?

[JimMueller]

How does the Mocal sandwich adapter compare to the Mocal block-mounted adapter? I don't want the filter hanging too low, but I'd also prefer the block adapter to have horizontal in/out to help with ground clearance. I'm also looking to get a mechanical oil pressure & temp gauges easily installed with the cooling solution, suggestions on parts?

Sandwich adapter
http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/product..._Sandwich_Plate

Mocal block adapter
http://www.improvedracing.com/product_info...?products_id=33

[JimMueller]

I spoke with Marvin at Setrab USA and he says they haven't run the NPT38 (NPT 3/8") fittings in a few years but there's nothing wrong with the unit; just need 3/8"-AN fittings. He says they use the same size unit in upper 400HP 370Z's regulary. If I was starting from scratch he'd probably start me on the next higher model, a 25-row, but he basically said to run it since I already have it and go bigger later if necessary. He suggested I would have a hard time finding 3/8" <-> 10AN fittings (my preference), but thought I'd be okay using 8AN. A bit of searching seems to indicate there are plenty of options for that fitting. Ordered some stuff today...

For the long brake pedal:
Motive 108 power bleeder
Castrol SRF (1L, I have an unopened second litre)
Doug Rippie SS piston inserts
hardbrakes.com Ti heat shims (backordered)
DTC-30 pads (spares)

This post has been edited by JimMueller: Apr 12 2011, 07:30 PM

[trackbird]

I don't love 8an for oil coolers, I just think it's a bit on the small side. I'd do my best to run #10 lines (particularly if you may upgrade coolers later and have to adapt them to the smaller cooler...which I still don't love, but it's better for when you change things).

[JimMueller]

My bad, I meant plenty of 3/8" <-> 10AN fittings. From memory the cooler is ~10-12"Wx~6"H, any suggestions on placement in the front bumper area?

This post has been edited by JimMueller: Apr 12 2011, 09:10 PM

[Blainefab]

Have you driven the car since fixing the radiator shrouds? Depending on your driving habits, you may not need any more cooling. What radiator are you using now? AC condenser still in place?

If you do need more, use an oil cooler with 1/2" NPT fittings, minimum, and -10an lines.

For a race car, I use a radiator with an integral oil/water cooler, with a remote oil filter. The block adapter depends on the headers being used. For street use I would add a thermostat for the oil cooler.

I do not recommend putting an air/oil cooler in front of the radiator - you are likely to have coolant cooling issues, again.

[JimMueller]

I've daily driven it since re-installing the shrouds, but I've not driven it in anger. I have the stock LS1 radiator & AC condenser. I do have headers and I am not anxious to play adapter roulette to find a physically compatible system.

If required: The Improved Racing Mocal block adapter has an internal t-stat. What are the options for cooler placement if not in front of the radiator?

Something I thought about ordering for the brakes: proportioning valve. I read somewhere that if the front of the car is dipping too much during hard braking then I could use better braking in the rear. I'm using DTC-30's in the front and HPS's in the rear and it does seem to dip more. Should I consider the valve and if so, recommendations?

This post has been edited by JimMueller: Apr 12 2011, 09:19 PM

[JimMueller]

More feedback from Improved Racing regarding the oil cooling and the high oil level:

---
The 3/8” NPT port would definitely be the restriction in your system, and having that restriction would result in a larger oil pressure drop. The ports on the pan are 12mm, or 0.47”. So -8AN or -10AN all around would be best. If you have 5 feet of -10AN line, for example, there would be a 0.5 PSI drop in your oil pressure through the lines. With 3/8” lines, the pressure drop would be 7.5 PSI. However if your lines are -10AN and you just have those two ports that are 3/8”, the pressure drop won’t be that significant.

As far as the oil level, you brought up a good point. It takes a lot longer to drain the oil with our baffle installed. You should let it drain for about 20 minutes, until oil stops dripping out. Otherwise, there will still be some oil trapped inside the baffle. Maybe this is what happened with your last oil change. You may have ended up with around 7 or more quarts in there. That said, it is a good idea to overfill the sump by as much as 1 quart when you’re tracking your car, however. Also, when you have too much oil, you will typically see some blue smoke coming out of your exhaust as that excess oil gets burned off. I never saw any smoke coming from your car at the Gainesville road course, so even though you may have overfilled the sump, it was probably okay.
---

So my thoughts at this point are that the baffle significantly slowed the oil draining process and nobody knew to allow more time to get all of it out. So I bet I have at least 7 quarts in the pan now. The owner was at the same event, as well as my friend Jeff(94TA). While I'm happy I wasn't spewing oil out the exhaust, shouldn't it have been doing so?

[Blainefab]

What does the dipstick read now?

Especially with the AC condenser in place, I don't recommend putting anything in front of the radiator. I've install oil coolers behind the radiator, in the flow off of a fan. The warm air off the fan will still cool oil. Keeping coolant cool is #1 priority, oil cooling is #2 priority.

What headers do you have now?

The Mocal block adapter does not look to be header friendly: http://www.improvedracing.com/images/aogtm...379af5aa6513cba

This is the Canton LS1 remote filter adapter, does this look like it would clear your header?

(IMG:http://www.blainefabrication.com/projects/2010_04_02/IMG_3391.JPG)

[JimMueller]

I haven't even checked the oil since the day after the race, I can either check it hot tonight or cold tomorrow morning. I have American Racing 1 3/4" headers. I don't look at the underside of my car very often so I don't recall what the clearance looks like. I'll try to take some photos soon, but maybe this interim photo of the 1 7/8" size on a local LS1 car is useful.

(IMG:http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/attachments/florida-members/113056d1198015214-ar-headers-tomorrow-dsc01219.jpg)

[FASTFATBOY]

Does your car have any add on bodywork on the front of the car? If so you need to extend the air dam under the radiator down. It is blocking the flow of air under the car.

The factory air dam is too short to pick up air. Extend it down.

[FASTFATBOY]

http://www.rksport.com/main/part_detail.as...d=1&catid=4