New Camaro = D.O.A.?? Options

[McCall]

Zeta light? GM looking for ways to build high-performance, rear-drive
models in near future
http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=102208


"The bottom line: GM insiders say they want rwd vehicles, including one in the mold of the Camaro muscle car, which was discontinued in 2002"

Ok, that's a good thing BUT...

"The margin is very low on those vehicles," Hall says. "That's not what GM needs right now. What they need is a high-margin home run....Wagoner said the economics of the derailed Zeta program didn't add up. It was "too expensive for what we wanted to do with it," he said. "This needs to cover a range of price-sensitive segments. The initial designs we saw of Zeta were not what we wanted, so that's where the costs began to come apart. Wagoner also said rwd cars are "not a massive profit-driver decision in the near term." He added: "We need to do it right. In the scheme of things of what's going to drive the business over the next three or four years, this isn't the most critical item we're looking at."

What about the Mustang which is built on a fricken Jaguar chassis?? Don't you think that is a "massive profit-driver"???? What about the 300C which is built on a fricken MB chassis?? Is that not also a "massive profit-driver"???? Aren't both of the cars flying off the lots yet GM still isn't sure that it's what they need right now??? No, lets just build more trucks and SUVs which get crappy gas mileage and will never sell as well again as long as gas prices stay high. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/banghead.gif) (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rant2.gif) (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rant.gif)

Reading stuff like this just pisses me off...

[cdb95z28]

Lutz: U.S. engineers need more hands-on training
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0.../B01-148929.htm

Lutz is partly correct. ( (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rant2.gif) my rant will now be off the 5th Gen topic but on GM`s bigger picture=survival (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rant2.gif) ) But that is not the fault of the engineers. I do believe American engineers are equal to or better than the best oversees. But the the real reason GM is on the sloooowww downward spiral is POOR MANAGEMENT and how their narrow minded thinking affects how the engineers are utilized. No accountability on their poor decisions. When a big company is doing great, of course it`s because of the "board members and management." (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) When it turns sour, well, it`s, it`s the the......economy, yeah the economy! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) He and other top management are part of the problem. Quit worrying about short-term financial expectations (that is: satisfying the, make me a ton of money, and do it quickly, shareholders) and realize there won`t be any money to be had years down the road w/o common sense decisions.
Makes me wonder, How is Toyota`s and Honda`s Upper Management setup? I think this is the true reason they are smashing the Big 3. You can`t get GM`s brASS to, after all these years, think about looking at themselves a different way. In their mind they aren`t the problem.

Remember: Many people thought the giant "Bethlehem Steel" would be around forever. Ha, wrong. I work at one of Bethlehem`s former wire mills. Will GM end up like Bethlehem? Don`t say never.

The UAW isn`t helping things either. But they cannot entirely be thrown to the fire. When the Big 3 where making money hand over fist, the hourly guys should deserve some of the fruit of their labor. The difficult decision is : when is enough, enough.

Medical costs are a big problem, but it is everybody`s problem in this country.

I`m done (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

[94bird]

Jason, the 300's chassis is not from Mercedes. Some of the suspension design is by Mercedes, but not the whole chassis by any means.

[1LEThumper]

It has nothing to do with hands on, health costs, materials...or any of the other bullsh!t.

It has to do with GM doesn't make anything other than pickup trucks and corvettes. What the hell else does the company make? We have a ton of $50k plus caddies that have just STARTED to get attention. We have the Corvette that people still associate with Chevy and think that its cheap no matter how fast it goes. Then we have 1000000000 different pickups, SUVs and small SUVs. What do they make for anyone in their 20s and 30s thats fun to drive? You either buy a Corvette or a pickup, and not everyone right out of high school or college can go get a corvette. So then what? The GTO is almost a joke, sure isn't as good as everyone orginally wrote it up to be. What else is there? They have nothing to compete with the Mustang, nothing to compete with the Miatas ( I know the Solestis..but it isn't out yet), and what about just every day transportation? Hell what about against the 300C? But by god you can get FWD, AWD, RWD, big, small, medium, convertible, 2 door, 4 door, 5 door truck.

Fact of the matter is...GM just didn't think about its vechical line up...they just kept building more and newer SUVs and gave every division a copy of that.

What would be nice would be a fun sporty 2 door family coupe

oh and RWD wouldn't that be a nice change of pace.


Ok I'm done now.

[94bird]

Tony, I wouldn't worry too much about competing with the Miata. Last I read it only sold about 10,000 units last year. Ugh.

GM does most certainly need a big hit with a high volume car. I think that's what the previous post was getting at. Getting lots of smaller hits is almost always the more costly way to go.

The big hits are usually in the markets like the Cobalt and the Impala. Too bad neither car seems to be up to the task. The G6 is doing horribly in the reviews I see. It really does seem like almost every car GM gets to the market nowadays is a huge disappointment. Sad days.

[1LEThumper]

Well I was just using that as an example....the Miata might not be a high selling volume car but it does bring a lot of people to Mazda and those that do buy one seem to be very protective of it...kinda like Jeep owners. GM has never really had that kind of fan base. Look at what the Mustang guys did when Ford was thinking of killing it. GM didn't seem to care to much when they axed the F cars. The only thing that saved the Corvette was the guys at GM staying late and doing work on the C5 at home and after hours.

They need to produce something that moves people......in more ways than one.



Hell remake a 57 chevy or a 69 Camaro....retro or not I don't think they could keep up production enough to supply the demand. Worked for Ford with the new stangs

[rmackintosh]

It has to do with GM doesn't make anything other than pickup trucks and corvettes. What the hell else does the company make?

...so true....THERE IS NOTHING in the ENTIRE GM line that I would consider except a GMC truck (Chevy has managed to F&%K thier trucks up as well (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) ) , a Vette (ain't gonna happen with two kids and a racecar ALREADY in my life), and a few Caddies....the rest is C.R.A.P.

I saw several of the most BUTT UGLY cars EVER MADE today...all new...Malibu's I think....I don't even pay attention any more....but these caught my eye because they were new....GM must have GIVEN THEM AWAY...

THEY SHOULD BE EMBARRASSED TO EVEN PUT THE FREAKIN BOWTIE ON THOSE DAMN PIECES O' CRAP....

(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

[McCall]

...so true....THERE IS NOTHING in the ENTIRE GM line that I would consider except a GMC truck (Chevy has managed to F&%K thier trucks up as well  (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) ) , a Vette (ain't gonna happen with two kids and a racecar ALREADY in my life), and a few Caddies....the rest is C.R.A.P.

I saw several of the most BUTT UGLY cars EVER MADE today...all new...Malibu's I think....I don't even pay attention any more....but these caught my eye because they were new....GM must have GIVEN THEM AWAY...

THEY SHOULD BE EMBARRASSED TO EVEN PUT THE FREAKIN BOWTIE ON THOSE DAMN PIECES O' CRAP....

(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

While I agree with you that most of the product offering is pretty bad, I must say at least they are getting a lot better. The new Cobalt and G6 are LEAGUES above the cars they replaced and the new new Malibu Maxx is a pretty decent car. Yet, you are right as I will never consider owning any of them though (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

Another good article today comparing the Mustang vs. Camaro

Camaro vs. Mustang: A Test of Endurance
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Colum...rticleId=105414

I don't agree with the writer's conclusion of the new GTO though. While the '04 didn't sell very well at all, the '05s are selling 125% better. The projections are for it to run through it's production by mid-summer and if you have noticed you can hardly find any on dealer lots (i.e. a good thing)

Another blog post by Lutz:

http://fastlane.gmblogs.com/archives/2005/...s_c_1.html#more

[00 Trans Ram]

Well, I must honestly admit that I really could care less about General Motors as a corporation. I currently hold no stock in any auto company, and am not thinking of moving to an automotive job, so my knowledge of their corporate/financial position is limited.

All that I care about is what car they put out. The next company (I don't care who - I'd rather American, but I can't be picky) to put out a sexy, RWD, 400+hp, 2 door, sports car will get my $40,000. Will it be a Vette? Maybe. But, it'll be a much easier sell to my wife if it can (theoretically) hold 4 people. If no one is willing to build one, then I'll buy a classic. I simply refuse to buy something that has a "high profit margin" - that's not what I care about.

[rmackintosh]

I simply refuse to buy something that has a "high profit margin" - that's not what I care about.

I agree, if GM is TRULY trying to build a "high margin home run" ....I feel REALLY bad for them... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

Not only is this a stupid direction....they OUGHT to be improving EACH AND EVERY car by 300%...but just WHAT do they have to show for this....NOTHING...

....embarrasing.... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)