interesting thread., well at least to me. thoughts please. Options

[GlennCMC70]

read the whole thread. about half way thru some of you may realize i'm not really looking for new wheels. i'm more concerned about the rule changes after the fact.
to fill in the missing info. a local CMC guy bought a set of Forgline's (1 piece RS's i think) for his car. they where deemed illegal after the price and weight were known by the directors. they do follow the written rule, but seemed to not follow the intent. i'm not trying to start a war w/ this post, so if you think that, don't. but i do want some CONSTRUCTIVE feedback whether it be for or against me. i'm also not looking for people to post in the thread there, just wanted to prompt some jabber back and forth here.
i still think a limit on wheel weight is a good idea, just not after the fact. lets keep this one friendly. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


http://www.camaromustangchallenge.com/cmcb...opic.php?t=1387

[GlennCMC70]

wow, 20 looks and not an opinion in the house.
mods, feel free to delete this @ your next whim.

[Pilot]

Glenn, no need for deletion, I just saw it right now. I'm not a CMC'er... or even a road courser... yet... but I agree completely with you and Lewis. If they're going to limit the weights on the wheels, then don't screw with the costs. If you're going to screw with the costs, don't screw with the weights. I personally think that limiting max/min wheel weights is a much more fair way of regulating the series.

Tony wants to keep CMC from becoming a checkbook series and I think limiting the wheel weights can do that. That way, someone can spend under x dollars to get a minimum weight wheel, and if someone else wants, they can spend the extra and have a better looking/more durable/made of unobtainum/whatever you want wheel that weighs exactly the same. Limiting price by itself is kinda sketchy, but limiting price by limiting part specifications is more logical.

[nape]

Both are a hard metric to make a rule by, because someone is always going to want to go out and spend the money vs. running what they brung. They probably wouldn't notice a huge difference, but they don't want someone else to have an "advantage". Knowing how to drive the shit out of the car is probably why someone else is beating them, but the wheels are a good excuse.

If they want a weight limit, set it at 17lbs so GM guys can still use GTAs and let the Mustang guys who want to spend the money to get the "competitive edge" do it. Or, limit it to a $200/wheel (or less? still pretty expensive) retail cost so people can't buy unobtainium, but can basically buy any style they want.

I tend to want the "competitive edge", just because it's my nature to want to get the maximum performance while spending a reasonable dollar. In that same vein, I'm glad I'm a GM guy and can buy GTA wheels that are light, cheap, and legal. Right now, I have 6 fronts and 4 rears sitting around because I've been finding deals lately and I have about $550 in all of them including the 4 good Kumho tires that I'm HPDE'ing on before I spend the money on Toyos. I've got more wheels then I'll probably ever go through right now, but I tend to go overkill, which is evident if you ever look in my neighbor's garage or my parents shed with the amount of spare crap laying around.

If I were a Mustang guy, I'd probably be a little hot that I can't find cheap 16x8 wheels that weigh 17lbs, but those are the breaks, you can't always get lucky, deal with the weight, and if it really bothers them to go spend the money on aftermarket wheels to get that extra 1/2" (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/nutkick.gif) (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rotf.gif)

The class seems balanced enough that 2-3lbs of wheel weight isn't going to create an anchor on the Mustangs.

Oh, and tell them I want my 15 minutes of sleep back that I spent typing this post (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

This post has been edited by nape: Aug 10 2005, 07:17 AM

[severous01]

it seems like BS to me. so do they want the purchase cost or retail cost? if i can get a set of whatever wheel online on like ebay, used for 100 per wheel and they regularly cost 500 per wheel, are they $500 wheels or are they what i paid? too many circumstances...

limiting the cost is fruitless, the weight/size should be limited. there are too many variables to limit the cost of things. what someone wants and what someone needs are completely different. if joe-blow wants to spend 4k on a wheel to look good, let him. but if you limit the weight and size, i could have a similar wheel for cheap.

as for the mustang guys, there are several wheels out there that are 16x8 for them. i'm having a hard time finding wheels in my bolt pattern, but it seems that the ford bolt patterns are everywhere.

[AllZWay]

To me... In CMC you should be forced to use STOCK wheels only. This would end the problem immediatlely.

CMC should be the starter class and allowing expensive wheels is probably just the start to a slippery slope of other changes allowed. JMHO

And if there is no rule in place for stock wheels... I would put a weight limit of 20lbs so that the Mustangs wouldn't be left out.

This post has been edited by AllZWay: Aug 10 2005, 01:37 PM

[robz71lm7]

Reminds me of what happened to Nick Steele after he put phb brackets and custom mounted penskes on his car. They changed the rules after the fact saying it didn't follow the intent.

NASA really needs to write the CMC rules more clearly so they do match the intent/spirit. I think allowing custom wheels (fiske ccw real etc)would be a mistake and is in conflict with what CMC is about.

Limiting shocks by cost and wheels by cost is a tricky thing because you get into a gray area when people buy things used. I think they would be better off listing te items that are or aren't legal.

[KeithO]

I think they should leave wheels alone. ...and any change should grandfather in whatever has been deemed acceptable to date.

I frankly don't care because I found the best wheels for price/performance/safety/weight - GTA's. And the Mustang guys shouldn't whine - they already have the rules setup in their favor.

[mitchntx]

To me... In CMC you should be forced to use STOCK wheels only. This would end the problem immediatlely.

There sure is a lot of hoopla surrounding this. It's kind of sad, actually.

I'm wondering if it wouldn't be best for the series if the rules overall were revised to be more like SCCA ESP or T2.

Basically, if the factory didn't offer it ... you can't run it. OEM or like for like OEM replacement only.

That would certainly simplify things ...

[severous01]

so what happens when someone enters with an SS or WS6? do they have to buy stock z or formula wheels? what about cobras...they have 17x8's from the factory...since they are 8 wide are they legal?

i know the rule says 16, but they are stock wheels and i'm sure if i wasnt the dumba$$ that mentioned it someone else would.

[mitchntx]

Per the rules, 4th gen SS and WS6 models are excluded

[GaryK]

I'm somewhat confused with the way some of the rules are being handled. It seems like an aweful lot of things are legal by the rulebook yet the directors are "shooting from the hip" and deeming them illegal. Not a good way to handle things in my opinion. The reason I say that is that there are just too many areas where I read the rulebook and the wording is pretty damn clear, yet if I went max effort with the parts I would find out later they were illegal just because somebody feels like they're to expensive. I'm all for keeping costs down, but if the final determination of legality of a part is the cost, it really should be spelled out in the rules. I believe those Forgeline wheels you spoke of should be legal by the book. Would I go out and spend the money for them? Probably not, as I have two sets of GTA wheels to use.

The way things are being handled, I almost feel like you'd have to ok every little thing with the directors in order to be fully legal. Whats the point of the rulebook then?Anyway, I think they should limit the weight of the wheels if there is concern over people spending big money on them. Another thing I see tossed around alot is the option to run "replica" wheels because they fit the intent of the series so well. Sorry, but in my experience most replica wheels are junk and stand a high chance of failure on a 3200 lb racecar. I'd rather run OEM or spend the money on a real set of wheels.

[GlennCMC70]

thanks for the response's guys. i was starting to feel as though i was the only one who had a problem w/ the way things were getting handled. take that and the resent "happenings" here on this site, and i was starting to think i was loosing my mind. and although this topic was discused on a local email group due to it involving one of the local racers, i didnt seem to get much backing even though some agreed w/ me, just not publically.
an like i said, i'm all for cost control, just not after the fact.
looks like things are about to change alot here in the Texas region.

[KeithO]

We have a saying where I work.

There is a right way to do things; then there is the way to get things done.

Raising real issues on the CMC forum may seem to be the right thing, but it is not the way to get things done.

[Rob Hood]

IMO, the rule should read or read close to, "OE wheels (as offered by the manufacturer for that vehicle) or OE-replacement wheels that weigh equal to or heavier than OE." Entry-level racing ought to have entry-level costs. And yes, I recognize that the way I worded my proposed version would only allow the T/A's to run the GTA wheel.

I certainly can see the "Smokey Yunick" approach to this rule as it is currently written. My frustration with any rule/law is that interpretive difficulties usually run rampant when they are poorly worded. Not intending to slam the writer's intent, but sometimes the text needs to be read by a set of fresh eyes to ensure the meaning is defined well enough and does not leave an interpretive way out. The phrase "non-exotic" was not defined well enough, and thus left the rule wide open to interpretation. Would I love to have a set of Forgelines or CCW wheels? Sure! But for most (and especially for me), the money spent on high-dollar wheels would be better spent on either an advanced driving school to improve technique, (which would really help decrease laptimes) or the best safety equipment possible.