 Bought an old racer.... |
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 Jan 14 2006, 12:00 PM
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#1
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Advanced Member  Group: Advanced Members Posts: 620 Joined: 24-December 03 From: Chester, VA Member No.: 22  |
As I mentioned in the "....non F-bod project..." topic, I was looking at an old ITA Starfire. I bought the thing, (still had its' log book), and am in the process of inventorying the spare parts, and giving it a thorough cleaning. It had a Buick even fire 231cid V6. I got a lot of good parts with it including a previously machined block, a turned crank, headers, new pistons, bearings, valves etc, even a set of 13"x8"wheels!Do any of you have any experience with these engines? I don't need a power house, but is 200 reliable hp possible with bolt ons? Thank God for a patient wife. Mine took one look at the battered Olds sitting on the trailer and said, "Boy, THAT'S pretty!". (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rotf.gif)
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Jan 14 2006, 03:43 PM
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#2
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Member Group: Advanced Members Posts: 239 Joined: 18-July 04 From: Columbus, Ohio Member No.: 410 |
QUOTE (rpoz-29 @ Jan 14 2006, 06:00) I don't need a power house, but is 200 reliable hp possible with bolt ons? Not only is it possible, but it's conservative. My wife's 2000 Grand Prix has the same basic engine, and it's 200 hp stock. I don't remember the all of the builders, but there are a number that specialize in the Buick 3.8 engines. Check out any Grand Nationals based sites for help. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/thumbup.gif) |
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Jan 14 2006, 05:08 PM
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#3
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Grumpy Group: Advanced Members Posts: 2,722 Joined: 1-January 04 From: Bakersfield CA Member No.: 81 |
We need pic's (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)
I wonder if your motor is the same motor in the GN and type T buick's, 400hp on a bad day turbo v6 (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) |
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Jan 14 2006, 06:42 PM
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#4
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Member Group: Advanced Members Posts: 239 Joined: 18-July 04 From: Columbus, Ohio Member No.: 410 |
QUOTE (firehawkclone @ Jan 14 2006, 11:08) I wonder if your motor is the same motor in the GN and type T buick's, 400hp on a bad day turbo v6 (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) The even-fire Buick V-6 came out in '78, and is basically the same architecture as the current 3800 Series GM engines. They've been upgraded, but the basic design is the same. The killer GN engines are a version of this series. I don't think I'd build a killer turbo motor out of a stock '78 block, but there are parts out there to mod it. |
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Jan 14 2006, 08:16 PM
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#5
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Advanced Member Group: Advanced Members Posts: 545 Joined: 6-January 04 From: Germantown, MD USA Member No.: 99 |
I used to build them for the street (non-turbo'd) many years ago. Used to put them in Vegas.
There's a lot you can do to those engines from improving the oiling to bettering the dependability. And 200 hp is a snap. I'll dig out some of the info I have buried and get it to you. |
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Jan 14 2006, 08:24 PM
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#6
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CMCer Group: Moderators Posts: 2,932 Joined: 12-February 04 From: the sticks near VIR Member No.: 194 |
231 Buick V6! We have an even fire in our '62 CJ5. You will indeed get your 200hp. Get a Kenne-Bell catalog. We used a lot of their parts. Their cams work well, and they have some improvements for the oiling system (weakness). The sound coming out of ours, balanced and blueprinted, makes all the heads turn on the trail! We have a Carter 390 cfm (or is it 490?) AFB on ours, I don't think you can get that size anymore though. Hubby would like to go to FI, better for wierd angles off-road.
Have fun! |
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Jan 15 2006, 01:42 PM
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#7
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Advanced Member Group: Advanced Members Posts: 620 Joined: 24-December 03 From: Chester, VA Member No.: 22 |
I cleaned on it yesterday. Less rust than I expected. Some of the spare parts are trash, some are good. How about a set of unused, shaved, Comp TA R1's? Hard as a rock, but they're keeping the car off the ground. I think I'm going to shoot for C/P with it. I know it won't be nationally competitive, but I run strictly local events, and have longed for something "different" ever since I retired my '73 Vega.
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Jan 15 2006, 07:40 PM
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#8
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Chapter 11 Racing Group: Advanced Members Posts: 1,166 Joined: 15-February 04 From: Houston, Republic of Texas Member No.: 207 |
I have a buddy here locally that dropped in a 3800 in a fiero... then added a big turbo. He was running either low 12's or 11's with it.
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Jan 17 2006, 02:37 PM
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#9
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Advanced Member Group: Advanced Members Posts: 647 Joined: 30-December 03 From: Paris, Texas Member No.: 74 |
QUOTE (firehawkclone @ Jan 14 2006, 11:08) We need pic's (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) I wonder if your motor is the same motor in the GN and type T buick's, 400hp on a bad day turbo v6 (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) No kidding... I would like to see pictures. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) |
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Jan 18 2006, 01:34 AM
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#10
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Advanced Member Group: Advanced Members Posts: 620 Joined: 24-December 03 From: Chester, VA Member No.: 22 |
I'll try and post some. Just don't tease me too much. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rotf.gif) I still haven't decided to do with the thing....it just seemed too good a deal to let get away. I would prefer to stuff a SBC in the thing, and dump the V6. I remember watching V8 powered Monzas in SSA back in the '80's and they handled well.
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Jan 18 2006, 03:08 AM
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#11
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CMCer Group: Moderators Posts: 2,932 Joined: 12-February 04 From: the sticks near VIR Member No.: 194 |
Before you toss the V6 -- it weighs a lot less than a V8 and you can have decent hp. If ya gotta have a V8 I have a Olds aluminum block 215 for ya. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Jan 18 2006, 03:17 AM
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#12
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Experienced Member Group: Advanced Members Posts: 1,042 Joined: 24-December 03 From: Hanover, PA Member No.: 36 |
QUOTE (CMC #37 @ Jan 17 2006, 23:08) Before you toss the V6 -- it weighs a lot less than a V8 and you can have decent hp. If ya gotta have a V8 I have a Olds aluminum block 215 for ya. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Yeah, now we're talkin'!! Then enter it in an AI race!! It'd get first place for looks. |
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Jan 18 2006, 01:58 PM
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#13
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Advanced Member Group: Advanced Members Posts: 620 Joined: 24-December 03 From: Chester, VA Member No.: 22 |
QUOTE (steve-d @ Jan 17 2006, 21:17) QUOTE (CMC #37 @ Jan 17 2006, 23:08) Before you toss the V6 -- it weighs a lot less than a V8 and you can have decent hp. If ya gotta have a V8 I have a Olds aluminum block 215 for ya. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Yeah, now we're talkin'!! Then enter it in an AI race!! It'd get first place for looks. Is it eligible for AI? |
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Jan 18 2006, 07:43 PM
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#14
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CMCer Group: Moderators Posts: 2,932 Joined: 12-February 04 From: the sticks near VIR Member No.: 194 |
You'd have to check their rules Bill, I'm sure they have them posted somewhere you can get at them.
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Jan 19 2006, 02:51 AM
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#15
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Experienced Member Group: Advanced Members Posts: 1,042 Joined: 24-December 03 From: Hanover, PA Member No.: 36 |
Q asked. A provided.
http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/America...-Iron-Rules.pdf 4. Eligible Manufacturers/Models/Configurations a) All 1960 through present, American-made sedan vehicles certified by the United States Department of Transportation for street use at their date of manufacture. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) 100-inch wheel base minimum. c) Front engine. d) Rear wheel drive e) Solid rear axle or approved independent rear suspension (IRS)* * See Rule 6.1(d) and Rule 6.2 f) No tube frame chassis conversions will be allowed. g) Vehicle must retain its stock front clip, floorpan, and subframe h) “OEM” for purposes of these rules is defined as Ford Motor Company, General Motors, or DaimlerChrysler. OEM does not include small volume specialty manufacturers. Seems like if it was made in the 20th c. you'd have a chance to enter. GO For it!!! Steve |
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Jan 19 2006, 02:20 PM
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#16
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Advanced Member Group: Advanced Members Posts: 620 Joined: 24-December 03 From: Chester, VA Member No.: 22 |
Crap. I was hoping it was a lost cause, and couldn't race anywhere. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Now it looks like I have another venue to consider. I have to complete a couple of jobs around the house, (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/whip.gif) then I'm going to get going on it. Thanks for the rule information. It sounds very tempting. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/drink.gif)
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Jan 21 2006, 12:07 AM
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#17
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Advanced Member Group: Advanced Members Posts: 620 Joined: 24-December 03 From: Chester, VA Member No.: 22 |
Unless I'm missing something, I don't think the Starfire can run in AI. Their rules state a 100" wheelbase minimum, and "H" bodies are 97".
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Jan 21 2006, 03:16 AM
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#18
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Experienced Member Group: Advanced Members Posts: 1,038 Joined: 29-December 03 From: Texas, USA Member No.: 62 |
You have GOT to post some pics.
Do you not want to run ITA with it? The rules limit wheel width to 7" and I have a set of 13x7s for sale w/proper spacers to get them to the edge of the wheelwell. IT just changed rules to allow 13" wheel folks to upgrade to 15"s and that is what I put on my IT car this winter. Wheelbase is too short for AI, I sure wish they would drop to 97!! As far as HP, I will by dyno'ing mine very soon. Bear in mind folks, in IT trim you run a stock (external) carb (a 2Gc can be made to flow plenty tho), stock heads w/porting only 1" in, balance and blueprint and any exhaust. An Hbody is one of the strongest running ITA cars out there, lots of torque and carrying enough weight to not worry much about incidental contact. Now that I can run a 225.50.15, I finally have enough tire to run hard the whole time. Comparing times at tracks that I have run, a strong ITA car will be running in the thick of CMC....interesting. Mine: (IMG:http://www.witchdoctormotorsports.com/ch48pic02.jpg) (IMG:http://www.witchdoctormotorsports.com/ch48pic06.jpg) (IMG:http://www.witchdoctormotorsports.com/ch50pic19.jpg) Costas |
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Jan 21 2006, 04:13 AM
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#19
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Advanced Member Group: Advanced Members Posts: 620 Joined: 24-December 03 From: Chester, VA Member No.: 22 |
I never considered ITA, thinking the car was no longer competitive. I think I stumbled across pics of your car on an "H" bod site. I hope to post pics this weekend of the Olds. The original owners of my car kept having oiling problems, and puking engines. I wasn't aware that they were still competitive in ITA, and frankly had know idea what the rules allow. Do IT rules require the interior remain in the car? I'm not yet certain of the gear ratio, and may have to stay with the 13x8 inch wheels that came with the car. If they're legal. Great looking car, what engine are you running?
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Jan 21 2006, 04:50 AM
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#20
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Experienced Member Group: Advanced Members Posts: 1,038 Joined: 29-December 03 From: Texas, USA Member No.: 62 |
The oiling problems are well known, well documented and easy to fix. In ITA you must run the v6 and you can run the saginaw (2 diff ratios) or the t50. You can run any rear gear you want in the stock housing and any diff that fits.
The maximum wheel width is 7 inches. If you don't get caught with the 8s, you may be ok, but really, now that 15s are legal, the 15x7 is the hot ticket. I got 8 from Bassett in their lightweight steel and love them. I ran the 13s for a few years and the 15s are a big step up. You can gut the interior and .... well...DL the rules and read them from here: rightclick-saveas http://www.scca.org/_FileLibrary/File/Impr...ovedTouring.pdf e-me if you want to talk setup stuff so we don't bore the f-body guys... costas(at)witchdoctormotorsports(dot)com Costas This post has been edited by Shortcutsleeping: Jan 21 2006, 04:50 AM |
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