Would the autocrossers consider "time trials", Would the racers come too? AV8SS ideas? Options

[mitchntx]

I'm going to use NASA as an example for a 2 day weekend of racing. If you attend HPDE on both days it is about $310 ($150-$170 avg per day), To race in TT is an additional $150, Transponder rental is $50 for a weekend.

Wow ... that is pricey!

In Texas, the HPDE fee was $200 for the weekend, TT was $25/event (event = 1 day) and the transponder rental was $50 for the weekend (they're $300 new).

SIs that a regional thing?

The cost of travel, room and board and car expendables the same during an AX vs track day weekend. I would go through tires at about the same rate. Maybe not brakes. And fuel is definitely more costly for a road course weekend. I burn 3-5 gallons per session! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

[Mojave]

For this past weekend with Nasa, 2 days of TT was $275 (DE is $245 for 2 day), transpoder rental $60, garage space $35, and Nasa membership $40 (once per year).

This post has been edited by Mojave: Aug 7 2006, 10:24 PM

[marka]

Howdy,

The cost of travel, room and board and car expendables the same during an AX vs track day weekend. I would go through tires at about the same rate. Maybe not brakes. And fuel is definitely more costly for a road course weekend. I burn 3-5 gallons per session! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

Car expendables are the same between a track day weekend and an AX?

Um, not in my experience.

Folks around here get 10 events or so out of their top of the line DOT-R tires before they're unusable (not uncompetitive...) That's about 60 runs. I've never once heard of someone getting 10 days at the track running the latest DOT-R tires.

Brake pads & rotors last indefinately on an autox car. When people are changing them, its because they want a different pad, not because they've worn out. Seems like folks are chewing through brakes a lot faster than that at track days.

The AMV8SS car I crewed for last weekend ran though 20+ gallons of fuel in perhaps 80 minutes or so of track time. Certainly that car drinks fuel, but even if you cut the fuel bill in half you aren't going to come anywhere near that at an autox.

Mark

[Crazy Canuck]

but time behind the wheel is also much greater too.
I think it's a great event if we can get it going.
We have any ideas on the "WHEN" it would happen ?
are we thinking september ? or something for next year ?

[mitchntx]

For this past weekend with Nasa, 2 days of TT was $275 (DE is $245 for 2 day), transpoder rental $60, garage space $35, and Nasa membership $40 (once per year).

Garage space and NASA membership is really outside this hypothetical equation.

I knew they had gone up $30 for the racers, I didn't realize they had raised the price on the DE guys as well.

So it's $15 a day for TT now?

Howdy,

The cost of travel, room and board and car expendables the same during an AX vs track day weekend. I would go through tires at about the same rate. Maybe not brakes. And fuel is definitely more costly for a road course weekend. I burn 3-5 gallons per session! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/huh.gif)

Car expendables are the same between a track day weekend and an AX?

Um, not in my experience.

Folks around here get 10 events or so out of their top of the line DOT-R tires before they're unusable (not uncompetitive...) That's about 60 runs. I've never once heard of someone getting 10 days at the track running the latest DOT-R tires.

Brake pads & rotors last indefinately on an autox car. When people are changing them, its because they want a different pad, not because they've worn out. Seems like folks are chewing through brakes a lot faster than that at track days.

The AMV8SS car I crewed for last weekend ran though 20+ gallons of fuel in perhaps 80 minutes or so of track time. Certainly that car drinks fuel, but even if you cut the fuel bill in half you aren't going to come anywhere near that at an autox.

Mark

The great thing about a road course duty is one can have a pretty damn good time on a set of tires that are quite a bit cheaper than the latest incarnation of a Hoosier.

I bought 2 sets of Toyo Proes R1As (8 tires) the begining of last season and still have 3 of them on the ground. I bought a second set earlier this year because my Toyo bucks contingency was about to expire.

I once heard LGs old crew chief say "When compared to a Hoosier, the Toyos suck. But they sure do suck for a long time." You know, he was right.

You are probably right about brake pads. I've gone through 2 sets of pads in the last 2 seasons. But, I still have the original Wagner rotors ...

[trackbird]

I was using 1/8" of pad material per pad on the front of my car in 10 autocross runs (me and a co driver) of 50-ish seconds each. I did kill off some pads and rotors last year. My autocross brake bill was about $550 for the season (and street driving). It still adds up.

[marka]

Howdy,

The great thing about a road course duty is one can have a pretty damn good time on a set of tires that are quite a bit cheaper than the latest incarnation of a Hoosier.

I bought 2 sets of Toyo Proes R1As (8 tires) the begining of last season and still have 3 of them on the ground. I bought a second set earlier this year because my Toyo bucks contingency was about to expire.

I once heard LGs old crew chief say "When compared to a Hoosier, the Toyos suck. But they sure do suck for a long time." You know, he was right.

You can run Toyos and have fun at an autox though... You gotta compare apples to apples here. Track days use up equipment way more than an autox ever thought of.

Mark

[killer_bluebird]

You can run Toyos and have fun at an autox though... You gotta compare apples to apples here. Track days use up equipment way more than an autox ever thought of.

Mark

I don't think the idea is is making this program a one to one comparison but to bring it a lot closer than it is at the moment. I believe if we are able to get the cost to about half of what it currently takes it will not only be more apealing to serious AX'ers but provide a transitional platform. Toyo's are a durable platform so you can set it up this way, You can run Dot street tires like Nitto RII, Kumhos MX, BFG KD, and Azeni 615's but if you want to step up to an R compound tire you are limited to Toyo RA's. Or have Nitto or Toyo sponsor the event and offer discounts as part of the price if you use their tires. 20% first place, 15% second and 10% third. I'm throwing ideas out there, I think limiting the tire selection to a tire that would last a whole season is a good start though to keeping it cost effective.

[trackbird]

Nitto is a sponsor of AV8SS and they sell the tires (NT01's) cheaper than discount tire and most others. So, that could possibly all be taken care of (and maybe quite easily) since the series has a tire sponsor and such already on board.

[Ojustracing]

Hey how about this, 2 hpde sessions, 1 recon, 3 timed, 1 cool down. Ditto for sunday. I like street tires required treadware 140 or higher. But the Nittos don't fit that way, but might have to allow them. 100 bucks a day.

John

[trackbird]

I like it.

[z28tt]

I'm not keen on the 8 runs a day autox schedule. The reasone I do HPDE's and time trials is so I get more than 10 minutes on track for the whole day. EMRA runs 3-4 20-30 minute practice sessions throughout the day, and then the last session is time trials. The TT is setup in groups of three (honor system, since you tell them what your appx laptime is, and they group accordingly), with a car getting released every 20-30 seconds. You get a half lap warmup, two timed laps, and a half lap cooldown. Once all 3 cars are back in the pits, next group goes out. If you catch the guy in front, you get a re-run. This has worked well, and doesn't require a transponder. NASA (I've heard, never run with them yet) just times you throughout the day with the transponder, so no specific TT session. Regular costs in the Northeast are $130-$200/day for HPDE/TT's. If you keep costs in that ballpark, I'm sure folks will come. It's not such a large world that a "cheap" event will drag out the yokels in their '84 DeVille running on four mismatched tires, so I'd go as cheap as you can make it to cover the costs. The more tracktime you get, the more $ you can charge. All thoughts are IMHO. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[mitchntx]

You can run Toyos and have fun at an autox though... You gotta compare apples to apples here. Track days use up equipment way more than an autox ever thought of.

Mark

At the higher levels I would whole heatedly agree.

But for what we are discussing, at least my perception of what we are discussing, it pretty much evens itself out with a couple of exceptions ... the cost of fuel, mostly.

[Absolut Speed]

My thing is having advanced notice. I've got my auto-x schedule and gear, but HPDE's and time trials are expensive to come out of the blue. It's one thing to add an auto-x to my schedule, but track time with the brake and tire differences, that's some $ I need to plan for. I just need heads up.

As some have been mentioned, it would be nice if classing were similar to auto-x so us F-stockers wouldn't be too out of place. Tires and wheels are another story. I have a set of 17's I use now because my spare 16's have auto-x only tires, but that's my own issue I guess. I wouldn't dare track the 16's I have on my street wheels.

[firehawkclone]

NASA's TT program started in Socal were I run, and they do it right. When I look at the other region's price's, even the great Laguna Sega is put on the back burnner!

It's $225 if you pay online for WSR and BRP and $300 I think for Cal speedway. And is the same for HPDE1 thur TT. The transponder is $30 for the weekend and no fee for teching a car.

We get 4 20min sessions each day no matter what, with TT getting a 5th(a shootout) on some weekends.

If you can keep fees/cost down and give them lots of track time, they will come!