Posting this to see if anyone would like to offer any information, opinions or insite on what might be the better car to run in stock class, to include Nationals ~ car would not be a daily driver (trying to weigh my options)......feel free to "shoot from the hip"

2002 Z06
- Cost around $25,000. Still holding up well at National level events, but the Lotus and GT3 seem to have a definite advantage. Shocks (Penski) are pretty expensive (around $3000 ?). No wheel hop. Tires are around $1300 a full set. Would need smoething to transport tires (or car)

2007 Mustang GT (Shelby conversion)- Cost around $25,000 (converted). Top car in class thus far. Warrantee. Shocks $750 Minimal to no wheel hop. Tires are around $1300. I believe race tires will all fit in car.

98-02 SS- Cost $15,000 (for one with lower miles). Seems to still be competetive (should have a better idea later in the year). Shocks $750. Front bar $150. Wheel hop. VictorRacers (for local events) $880 / Divisionals or Nationals $1000 Tires can fit in car (in a pinch).

The costs are not an overriding factor but due play into my thought process (thus my reasons for showing prices). I just would like to see what else I could be over looking or what someone might be willing to share.

Thanks

From what I *think* I know, the Mustang and Z06 are class-leading. The LS1 f-body isn't bad but I think the newer Mustangs might have a slight edge on the National level. Are you running largely for fun or are you determined to trophy?

All three are fun cars.

....determined to trophy (I do understand this could be visions of grandeur)

At this juncture the Shelby is most appealing.

Call me sometime D...

Do you really need Penskes (or similar) to make a Z06 competitive???

And to convert a 'stang make sure you just track down a GT/CS vs a regular GT. It already has a lot of the stuff you'll need (fascias, etc). Also, make sure it has the bagged seats. Sorry if you already knew all this.

The smart buy is probably the Shelby, though I don't give much weight to the warranty on a competition car, since there's no such thing At least I don't know of a car with a warranty that covers "off-road" use (such as autocross). Some dealers may choose to honor it even knowing what the car is used for, but IMHO trying to pass off competition wear and tear as normal usage is basically fraud.

Personally, I care as much or more about my raw time than I care about pax or class ranking. If a Z06 is in the budget, I'd be really tempted to go that route.

Hmmm... 3 cars I know a little something about setting up.

I've had my hands in/all over most of the fastest C5's @ Nats the last few years. I obviously know the Mustang and the Camaro.

First, you don't need $3k shocks for the Z06... In fact I maintain you don't WANT them, as I've had to fix a few sets valving wise over the years.

The tires, well if you compare apples to apples there isn't a lot of difference, certainly between the 18's on the Vette and Mustang, some down to the 17's, but still talking a lot of coin for A6's @ in 275's currently around $271 per, up to $290 per for 295's. At that point, is $306 for Mustang 18's really that much different?

Setting up a Mustang (already a Shelby) is right about $1000. Pretty much the same as a Camaro if you use 4/3's, but the Camaro would cost more if you use 4/4's. A Z06 is about $1200 for shocks and the front bar I use. So that's about a wash.

The Mustang has the best ABS of the 3. Mileage is similar. You can't fit squat in a Z06 really. The Mustang has room inside, though trailer hitches are a pain on CS or Shelby's because of the bumper cover, vs. easy bolt ons for the Vette/F-body.

I think in the end you have 3 cars, 2 of which are for sure, known commodities in their classes. The SS I think can be damned fast and competitive, but not many are working on it and certainly not at breakneak speed. In the end, I still think the Camaro's ABS, all else being equal could hurt it vs. the Ford.

I don't think there is a truly wrong choice here. But I have to be honest, I do think there are 2 smarter choices than the SS.

$10K will get you into this ...

http://www.lawmotorsports.net/Chassis4.htm



Howzit going Drew? The baby has to be 4 ... 5 years old now, right?

I think it wise to go with the most reliable car available. And that, because of age/mileage is the Mustang.........

Fuel prices are just to damn high to tow a stock class autox car anywhere......I'll probably drive my S/P car everywhere next year.....And hope nothing breaks.

Chuck - I agree, from an autocross stand point, it's coming across as the front runner.....just have to get over my brand loyality .........I'll try and call this weekend.

BigEnos - I did know about what is needed to put a Shelby together (but I did not expreess it) so I do appreciate you for taking the time to pass the informaiton along ~ thanks

sgarnett - yeah, the "fun factor" side is pulling me towards the Z06 .....but I'm trying to keep an open mind about what might be best and I'm concerned about the other 2 "players" in that group having just a little too much of an advantage.

Sam - as alway, thank you very much for taking the time to give your insite ~ it is alway greatly appreciated. In having experience in all 3 vehicles, I was hoping that you woud offer your informative/objective point of view......and thanks for the honesty

In learning that the Penski shocks aren't a must for the Z06 sure does make it look better on the financial side.

EDIT: I wasn't as clear as I should have been on the tires ~ meaning with the SS, one could use the VictorRacers (less expensive tires) at the local level and the A6's for practices before (and for) the divisional and National events.....not an option for the Shelby or Z06

Thanks again for all the replies......

For economy, I think the ability to rotate your tires for every event buys a lot of tire life. That, sadly, leaves out the Z06.

As tempting as that is, the scratch on the passenger's front blew it for me .....

All joking aside, I was giving thought to asking you (and Glenn) to build me a CMC car, as I know that would be a blast, but after long consideration .......the wife said no

As for the kid(s), yep, she's almost 5 ~ and a 2nd one now that's almost 3......and thus I've had even less time to play than before.

I like all of those cars.

Isn't the new Camaro projected to release in the first quarter of 2009? I would hold on to my cash until the cost and weight numbers are released for the new Camaro.

cake eater ...

Wow ... I didn't know you had #2 ... it's been a while, eh?

As a father who had 2 girls 2 years apart ... gather enough toys now to tide you over 20 years. Trust me on this ...

And I suggest something that a little dirt, or milk, or ice cream or soda or bubble gum or ... won't hurt.

......I thought that you would like that

Wow ... I didn't know you had #2 ... it's been a while, eh?

As a father who had 2 girls 2 years apart ... gather enough toys now to tide you over 20 years. Trust me on this ...

And I suggest something that a little dirt, or milk, or ice cream or soda or bubble gum or ... won't hurt.

Thanks for the "fatherly" advice Mitch ......now, do you have any on dealing with the wife


Josh - I thought that I read somewhere a ) that you were selling the Z and b ) something about moving to CA ~ true ?
While I would LOVE to wait for the Z, I think that they're going to be a little too proud for my budget (thinking 30K)
(read into this ~ I can purchase a $25,000 car and purchase 5 grand in parts .....just can't show that kind of money on the car, itself; remember, I'm married !)
........are you going to start back autocrossing ?

As for the other comments, towing would only be a limited option and that weighs heavy in thinking about the Z06.....and I complete forgot about that the tires couldn't be rotated front to back ~ something so obvious, yet I still over looked it ~ thanks !

Unfortunately, this is an attribute you should have had at the top of your list and not sequestered past yard work and trim painting.

I gotta admit, I'm pretty damned lucky in a lot of ways.

I am heading towards California. I have been considering rebuilding the IROC for street use, but California laws are a PITA. It looks like I will have to spend ~$4k to get the IROC back to stock so that it can pass a CA inspection. I have also considered converting to a new LSX motor/tranny, but that will be more like 10-12 grand. I really want to keep the IROC forever, but I want to finish engineering school more. It is looking like the car will have to be sold. You are more than welcome to come over, fire it up, and take it for a spin. PM me if you want to talk more about it.

I will start racing again in a few years. But me and my brother have not decided where we're going to race yet. We bought his Trans Am for CMC. My car was bought for Autocross. But we may ditch the cars and race motorcycles instead. You never know, we're both doing pretty well, so we may do all three.

Yes it is. I was in Detroit for a follow up to the focus group we did last year. Got to drive the IVER cars. Crawled all over 4 production ready cars. Got the complete rundown on specs, options, packaging etc. and had to sign a non-disclosure agreement. Most of the information should get released at the end of July/early August as that's when the press reveal will take place. Pricing won't be released for some time yet but they're sticking with the line that it will be competitive with a similarly equipped Mustang.

Not sure if anyone here can answer this but what are the chances of the new Camaro ending up in FS when it comes to market with an IRS and over 400 HP?

Of particular interest to this group will be one likeable extra that should show up on the option list.

Thanks for the update Art......
Knowing you can't give specifics, do you think that it will make for a good autocrosser ? (from what you've seen/know)

I'm optimistic .... the GM Performance Division has been delivering the goods for the last few years ... but have 2 concerns: Will it be an FS car in 2010 and the availability of R's for 20" rims.

As an aside ... a good car for autocross? My wife decided to autoX this year, so we bought a Solstice ZOK to run for a couple of years. That car is a blast ... and for just over $20K off the dealer lot ... how can one go wrong?

Bob Lutz actually has been quoted stating that the Camaro will be more $$$ than the 'stang, but that it'll be worth it. I am expecting it to be in between the challenger and the 'stang.

As far as FS, I expect that by 2009 or 2010 (when I plan to get one) that the 'stang will also be at 400hp and the challenger is already there. I think F-stock will just see a seismic shift in speeds compared to where it is now.

I hope that this "likeable extra" will be available with other options. I hate when they offer something like a Z0K but you have to get a no-option car to get that.

Sorry ... that was a typo. I meant to ask "will it be an FS car in 2009?". It'll be out spring '09 as a 2010 model.

I'm bringing this thread up because I'm in almost an identical situation right now. It's been two years since I've raced and the competitive bug is biting again. Due to the state of the economy, I don't want to make the commitment to road racing right now, and I'm looking to do some autocrossing next year to get my fix. Looking at the same choices as the original poster. Stock class. I considered an ESP Camaro also, but I want to keep the car very street driving friendly. Just the seats I'd need to run in SP make the car too much of a pain on the street...plus the last time I started an ESP Camaro I ended up at track days with it which quickly led to my last stint road racing. I really want to stick to stock class.

So, any new developments at this time regarding a choice between 2002 Z06, 2007 Mustang, or 1998-2002 Camaro SS?
-I'm really looking hard at getting a Z06. Prices are dropping fast, and I've actually passed up several 02's with less than 50k miles for around $20k...they typically have too many mods and I'd rather just buy one close to stock. I'm confident that one will come along with the right combo of no mods and a realistic price.
-I've been doing a lot of reading and I'm confused about the competitiveness of the Camaro. It seems that there are a lot of mixed opinions out there. That said, I'm a better road racer than an autocrosser so I don't plan on doing much at the national level. I just want a car that I can't use as an excuse
-The Mustang seems to me like a great car, but I think I can have a Z06 for not much more...granted, the Z06 would likely have more miles on it. I'm considering the Mustang because it does seem like the car to have in FS, and I really enjoyed that class several years ago. There's something cool about getting a muscle car around an autocross course in fast manner

An alternative viewpoint ... now is a fantastic time to get the road racing infrastructure and it's all due to the economy.

I might be preaching to the choir, but after you have collected the tools and toys you need to sustain a weekend's racing, for CMC, the operating costs are surprisingly low.

I make 6 weekends a year, meaning 20+ races, 10 qualifiers and 10 practice sessions, traveling to tracks that average 250 miles away and have an annual operating budget of $5000. I suspect an average AXer's budget approaches that. I am fortunate that I have a couple really great sponsors that help defray a lot of costs, but those kinds of "deals" are out there.

And due to the economy, tow rigs, trailers and even car and car candidates are at rock bottom prices for the same reasons those Z06s are becoming affordable.

NASA's mid-Atlantic region has a strong car count and seem to be great group of racers with good attitudes. Kent Lydic is very personable and energetic.

It's something to consider before writing off W2W racing, especially "due to the economy".

Mitch, I'm considering some other things that sway my decision. There is also the time commitment per event. And the more incremental cost of attending autocross events. Road racing is more of an all or nothing commitment for a season to me, where autocross is more of a casual thing where I can go when it's convenient/affordable. There are a few events literally right up the street for me each year, and I can travel to other sites for more competition (DC area). And having automotive ADD, I'd kind of like to replace my current daily driver of 4 years, so why not get a competitive autocross car. But, you make a great point. Maybe I should reconsider what exactly I want to do. Hell, we still have the tow rig and enclosed trailer sitting here. Still have my race gear and hans device. All I need is a car and spares. I last raced in CMC Mid-Atlantic and I know Kent pretty well. If I race again, I want to do it in a class with the highest car counts, which rules out CMC. I'd probably do 944 cup or spec miata.

Wha? Here's the last event sign-up on the CMC board from Mid-Atlantic: http://www.camaromustangchallenge.com/foru...opic.php?t=3009 9 cars each in CMC and CMC2, that's not lacking for participants.

Well, it would help if you'd look a little further than the number of entries for one CMC event. If you'll look at the turnout throughout the year, spec miata for example gets about four times as many entries as CMC. Most races had 25 to 30 cars entered, some even more than 30. CMC had at most 9, and usually less than that. Take a look for yourself.

3 or 8 or 30 ... you are only racing 2 at a time ... the one in front of you and the one in back of you.
I'm just not getting this fixation many have over racing in large groups ... on track, it just doesn't matter.

In spec Pinata and 944, the costs are significantly higher to field a competitive car. In a CMC car, motors, transmissions and rear difs last for years. Neither of those classes can boast that.

Forget it. I was asking about the original topic, not trying to get into a debate about road racing classes.

sorry ... didn't mean to turn it that way. just conver-sating.

at the end of the day, we each have to do what's best for our own situation.

good luck!

Just trying to keep it on topic

Thought that I would offer some insite from the research I've done since the start of my original post..........

I thing that the Mustang would be the better car for the "family" man ~ but to convert to a Shelby would cost you a few extra gran, even if you purchase the C/S......a trailer hitch is somewhat a pain, from what I'm gathering too.

The Z06 would be my top pick just for the shear fun factor. It's still competitive and trailer hitch is an easy install (if needed)......but the cargo space.

As for the Camaro ~ I spoke to Caseye on his and if he felt that it was still competitive. His results did not show as well as he would have liked (I believe) as he tried the 1LE springs without any true testing ~ and they were too stiff for his driving style.......so I believe he could have shown better.

It is my opinion all three would need shocks and a front bar (topic of debate on the Z06) ~ with the Z06 shocks being about $200 more (depending on the tyoe you purchase).
All three have shown to be durrable as well.
The tire cost is pretty much a wash but, as stated in an earlier post, the Z06 tires are staggered and thus would be useless quicker.

Do keep in mind that the Z06 will probably be the hardest to set up, without screwing it up ~ and the front control arm bushings are something to keep an eye on.

All the above said, with the economy where it is, I'm going to "shoot" for a Z06. As you stated, the prices are becoming very reasonable ~ and the resale should hold up better than the other 2.........that and it will be a fun weekend street car to boot !

If you would like to read up more on autocrossing the Z06 and Shelby, you might try sccaforums.com ~ under the "stock" classes
(there is still a current thread on the Z06 set up in SS)

Best of luck on your decision

Thanks for the input bowtieboy. I'm really leaning towards the Z06, and I'm pretty sure I can find what I want within a couple months. As far as setup goes, I'll just get the necessary parts from Strano and leave it alone, regardless of which car I might end up with.

And I appreciate that... Besides, I've prove to have some of (if not the) quickest setups out there for both cars.

FWIW, I heard a SGT was on Ebay the other day for mid 20's....