My Camaro has been a body shop for two weeks getting the top painted under warranty. It's a hardtop and this is the second time. I shouldn't have told them I was in no hurry. Anyway, I was griping about it during lunch at a "Street Survival" school I was helping with. Another club member overheard me and offered me a ride in his '02 Z06. WOW. I'm just kicking the idea around right now, but is there a year to stay away from? Any preferred years? Is a Z06 that much better than a standard Corvette? Just wondering!

What is your price range? What is your goal with the car? C5Z06 or will you consider a C6 Z51? Big differences in interior refinement, potential LS2 vs. LS6, etc. Market is crap for used cars is why I ask because I autox'd a C6 for a year.

I think the first thing you need to do is define your budget. With the way car prices are currently off and dropping like a rock, I would suggest taking the time to get yourself familiar with the particulars of each model and going from there. I am sure by January you wil be able to find a nice car at a real bail out price.

-Tim

If you want to leave the car (close to) stock and run SS or T1 or things like that, YES a Z06 is "that much better" than a standard C5. Lighter, more power, better spring/shock/sway rates etc. I also happen to prefer the FRC/Z06 body lines over the hatch-back targa a lot, but that's obviously personal preference.

So if you plan to stay close to stock an '02+ is preferable. The '01s were rated at 385HP, the '02-04 were 405 hp due to a different cam and getting rid of the "pup" cats ('01s have 4 cats, '02-04 have 2). Of course, if you're going to mod the car w/ a cam and headers that doesn't really matter. The '01s were prone to an oil-burning problem. But by now most '01s that were going to have issues would have had them and would have been re-ringed. Also, there was shift-fork TSB out on '01s. But don't like that scare you away from '01s if you plan to mod anyway, they can be had stupid-cheap.

In nearly stock form a '02-04 Z06 is a very amazing AutoX/track car. To stay in SS for AutoX you can only do a front bar and shocks, but they run CRAZY fast w/ just those mods (and 710s/A6s). Keep in mind the stock suspension design of the C5 allows them to be lowered/corner-weighted on 100% stock parts with no mods (you need 'lowering bolts' to go really low, but that'd toss you outta SS).

So anyway, how will the car get used? Goals? Budget?

-TJ

....it is so true....Corvette prices around here are falling like ROCKS!

I am having a hard time looking the other way! For the price I would have once considered for a nice C5.....I am starting to see C6's selling for! (DO NOT go from this page to Craigslist.........DOH!)

True, but for an AutoX/TrackDay car the C5 Z06 is still superior to C6s, even the mightly LS3. Pure acceleration a stock LS3 is faster than a LS6, the same is true w/ matching mods. But the C5Z is still lighter, steering feel is better (perhaps fixed in '08+ 06s) but also in a C5Z you don't have funky TPS system worries, when you defeat the traction control/active handling it stays off etc.

Sure, the LS3 car is the car to have if building an all-out nationally competitive T1 car but for a fun track day and AutoX car the C5Z is the way to go, IMHO.

-TJ

I'm thinking in the mid-twenties or less range. I know that narrows my choices, but right now I'm just looking. I would stay in stock. The car I drove was on A-6's, had SA Konis, and a front bar. I've also considered E/SP with my Z-28, but Lord I like the way that Corvette handles. Keep the responses coming so I can keep learning!

On track, the c5z06 and c6 are down to driver they're so close in performance. The C6 has 1" longer control arms and gobs more potential in the engine department. Replacing seats on a higher model (3LT) will save you about 40lb per seat. It's also taste. If it's not a dedicated track car, I'd go for whichever is more comfortable.

For low 20's you'll find c5z06's. For high 20's you'll find the less loaded c6's.

Also, get ready for a totally different style of driving. Computer control, yaw sensors, ice brakes take a lot of getting used to and a very different driving style than an fbody. Definitely a much more refined drive, though.

I raced Corvettes for several years. For the money your best bet is to find a 2000 FRC (Fixed Roof Coupe). It is just as light as the Z-06 becasue it is the same body. You can upgrade the suspension and engine to have a much faster car than a Z-06 for less money. If you start to modify the Z-06, you will replace most of which you paid more for anyway.

My C5 FRC weighed 3000lbs with a cage(not with me),put out right at 400rwhp and was running T-1 suspension. It was a hell of a lot faster than any Z-06.

Look up Kevin Mixon's car in NASA here in Texas. It is not a Z-06.

If you are familiar with TWS; Iwas breaking 155mph on the straight with my car!

Here is a shot of it.

If that was the decision I had to make, I would go ESP with your Z28 and put the extra money that would have been spent on the C5Z into traveling to a few more events and track days. I am more interested in doing the driving than I will ever be worried about what I am driving.

-Tim

Another thing to consider is maintenance/upgrades/consumable costs. F-body stuff is cheap compared to Vette stuff. Race rubber/shock upgrades etc. are more expensive and doing a clutch in a Vette is no small feat from what I have seen. I noticed similar price drops and have seen some real nice C5Z's with lower miles for just over 20-22k. FRC's are tough to find and are almost as much when you do find them.
Good luck with whatever you decide.

Chris

Duh! I'm an idiot. One from my car club for sale. Modded, but an interesting FRC.

http://www.norcal-lsx.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62970

car fax: http://picasaweb.google.com/alex.ae/CarfaxVette#

That is a nice setup. That car will be a ton faster than any C5 Z-06. Most of those parts are ones you wound want to put on the Z anyway.

And replacement parts. The headlight motors on C5's are a problem, and expensive to replace, and are almost a 'consumable' item. I think there was a recent post here where someone went in to order a $300+ headlight bucket for his wife's C5 and drove off with a new C6 vert. C6's don't have hideaway headlights, which is a BIG plus for me. If you want to change the color of the car, you have to replace the headlight bucket on a C6, but if you don't do that, you should have no need to replace unless you smack the thing in the front end.

With the prices these days, you can get a gently-used C6 Z06 for less than $50K. And the way the stealerships are hurting, you can almost haggle that price for a new one.

I autocrossed a '73 Chevy Vega from 1975 until 2002. Obviously, I'm not too concerned about what I'm driving. I just liked the way the Corvette felt. Of course there is also the Olds Starfire ITA project I have never gotten started on, and that old Vega could go into F/SP. I'll have to find the right car, fairly near by in order to take the next step.

Why do you keep saying that? I know the owner of that car, as well as the previous owner who built it. It is an amazing deal, and super clean. But I know of plenty of Z06s that are faster, and on a road course I'd put my $ on my car.

Sure, if you're going to mod the car a lot you do replace a lot of what makes a Z06 a Z06. If you do heads/cam then you've changed most of the 'better' motor parts out (yes, the block is different in an LS6 but there's not really a performance gain). If you do coil-overs you've changed out most of the 'better' suspension parts. Etc.

One quick question, does anybody know if the FRC got the thinner windshield that the Z06 has? Otherwise, yes they should be as light as a Z06.

BUT if you plan to leave it stock the Z06 is the better car than the FRC. And if he wants to keep his budget down AutoXin' in SS is probably much more fun/feasible than modding any C5 to ASP or SM2 spec.

As far as consumables, I don't agree that the C5 is spendier. You run essentially the same tires you would on a Camaro (a lot of ppl run 17x11s square on C5s just like 4th Gens, SS guys run stock wheels of course with 275 or 295-17s and 305 or 315-18s which aren't noticeably more expensive), brake part are mad cheap (possibly cheaper than 4th Gens) due to the volume they sell in (rotors used to be $20/ea but these days w/ the price of materials up they're still $50-60 and pads are very reasonable) and most replacement parts run the same $ as 4th Gens (same water pump, same this, same that).

The headlight issue is well-known, though my '02 w/ ~40k miles has no issues. There are (cheap) replacement gear sets w/ brass gears to replace the plastic stock ones that just take a few hours of elbow grease to install.

I will agree the clutch job is a major undertaking, I've done 3 or 4 of them. Working on a 'vette is like working on a lego-car. Everything comes apart easily in big chunks. It's just that you have to remove so much to get to most things. For example, to do the clutch you drop the exhaust, tunnel-plate, entire rear subframe/suspension, diff/trans/torque tube, intake manifold (so that it doesn't hit the firewall when the drivetrain rotates down), headers, and the bell-housing inspection cover. I probably forgot a few things too. So is it as quick as a Fbody clutch job (I've done about half a dozen of those) heck no!!!! But if you can do an Fbody, you can do a C5... just allow twice as many hours.... and don't do like me and decide to replace about a billion other things "while you're in there."

-TJ

Bill,
That was me that ended up with the C6 for my wife. (Mills in Va Beach) The car I ended up with is a convertable with a Z51 package. That gives you different spring and shock rates, plus upgraded Brakes similar to the ZO6. Mine's also a 6 speed car. From what I understand the Verts are built on the same platform as the Z06, but that may just be a rumor. I had a C5 before (also a vert) but the difference in the two cars is night and day! If you don't intend to track it, I would be inclined to look at the convertables, same basic lines as the FRC, but with the ability to go topless. You can pick up some killer deals right now. I would surf around on http://www.corvetteforum.com/ and see what's out there. Good luck!

FWIW, I'm thinking of moving over to ESP next year too with the WS6, It's fully FS prepared now and I'm still not even close to being competitive even with the 08 PAX. I know I need more seat time, but even when I've let some of the better drivers co drive it, I have a better time in the same car. No way I'm ever going to catch Terry Baker's Shelby. I beating most of the ESP guys now in an FS prepared car.

Mills

C6 Z51 brakes are basically a larger rotor setup, the calipers are the same as all C5s and non-Z06 C6s. The 'verts are not built off of the same "platform" as the C6Z06 either. All non-Z06 C6s have a steel frame and AL engine cradle but the Z06 has an AL frame and magnesium cradle FWIW.

-TJ

Sorry for the confusion, Yes the calipers on the c6 ZO6 are not the same as the Z51. The Z51 rotors are the larger dia, and also cross drilled. Sorry about the chassis information too, I may have heard it from a reference to extra bracing for the Convertibles that the ZO6 shares. But I don't know if it's accurate. Something I came accross while looking up info on the Corvette Forum. I just got the car, I havn't been under it yet to check it out (can get my wife out of it long enough!)

Sorry, My bad, trying to post and work at the same time. Brain's not working clearly right now.

No worries, I was just trying to set the record straight. Any 'vette is a great AutoX/track car, that is for sure. A clean, totally stock, '02 Z06 in the low, low 20s HAS to be the best deal going for a sports car. You just can't beat it... nearly super-car performance with Honda Accord pricing.

-TJ

And gets nearly the same mileage!!

I have to agree. I can't think of a better car bang for the buck wise than a used C5 Z06. What's more from an autox standpoint there isn't much to setting them up (though it's not easy and many screw it up). I'm guessing you drove the Marx's car, right Bill? That's basically my setup, or at least is was.

I have done or had input on the quickest C5's in Super Stock the last few years @ Nationals. In fact this year, Chris Shay (who's a member on this site) was 4th in his rookie outing in his Z06, which was last we talked running my parts and recommeneded alignment. And he did a hell of job driving @ Nationals, especially his first time there!!!! And the fastest C5 on day one was Paul Kozlak in a car he never drove before (and he only had 3 runs in a Z06 before). He was sitting 2nd going into day 2, but that East Course killed him (but not Chris).

If you can find a Z06 that suits you, I'd say grab it. Junior loves his in ASP trim once we got the suspension sorted out. And aside from some quibbles about the cheap GM seat, and that the transaxles can leak a little they really are a great, great car.

An f-body is fun, and fast. And in ESP trim can run pretty close time to a SS Z06. It costs more to set it up, but then again the car is cheaper (as you already own it) and the end costs are a lot less because of that. I love a Camaro in ESP, and you can have a very competitive regional/divisional car that can still trophy in Kansas (er.... I guess I mean Nebraska) for less than what I have in mine. It's mostly about suspension and limited slips. Power and that stuff helps (and that's were most of the money went) when every tenth counts Nationally.

Yeah, it was the Marx's. I was genuinely taken off guard when Keath offered to me, and I really enjoyed driving it. My time was only slightly faster than Glen Estelle's with his 3rd gen in S/M. Keath put over 2 seconds on me, so I didn't "find myself" as a driver, but it was nice to plant my right foot and not start smoking a tire. I'm looking around for Corvettes but, for right now, that's about all.

Im confused after reading the theme.

I have driven a couple stock c5z06 and I find them more nervous and over responsive to drive than a good stock F-body, which to me feels more trustable, predictable, linear and obedient.

c6 non Z06 Ive driven are much better cars to me.

Should this be because my lack of driving skill? or may be that I don't understand the car?

By the way; a friend of mine on a c5Z06 stock, is able to duplicate the best times of cars like GT3RS and AudiR8 on our racetracks.

Thanks.

Could be the car setup? One that I drove was a handful on old and tired V710s, but was practically a different car with better tires. And then it was back to being a handful when we ran it at Heartland Park (questionable surface), but we added more rear toe in, and was back to being a great car.

The C5 Z06 I drove earlier this year at the Dixie National Tour was great right from the start.

Pat

When they first came out I drove a lot of them, and HATED them all. Nobody knew what they were doing setting them up, and usually messing them up from stock. Still to this day there is great debate of how to set them up, and you just can't convince some folks. All I can say is the proof is in the pudding. And I went from hating them to loving them.

'01s had stiffer rear springs, too. That can't help things.

I ran the car at Virginia Motorsports Park. The pavement there is really poor, especially where the pavement is seamed. Those seams have sent me spinning a couple of times. That's one reason I like the Z06 as much as I do. RRC is better, but I haven't driven the Corvette there.

I've done '01's that were fine, you can easily tune around that with the range of adjustment and bars. The only thing that I hate about '01's is the throttle is a lot more touchy and top-loaded. It's hair-trigger, and the '02+ cars were recalibrated...

Well in ESP a Camaro can be made a *LOT* better in those situations. A Watts link settles the car down an immense amount over not good (read smooth) pavement. But it's still a solid axle car, and carries less load on the rear than the Vette. Both things are going to make the Vette better.

That is what is to be expected, from the better weight distribution, better brakes, etc. So what would be a good initial set up? What is the car potential compared to an F-body?

I can tell you that I raced a F-body for many years, then bought a FRC Corvette to keep up with my buddies and their Z-06's. The difference is pretty substantial. The Vette is much more percise. The difference to mee seems to be the amout of power that you can transfer to the ground coming out of turns and the stability under braking. These are both functions of the weight distribution and the suspension differences.

I am now running a F-body again. The reason is for the money, you can't beat them. If you are going to road race a Corvette with any modifications, you will be in one of the top classes. If your there, you better be ready to spend a lot of cash to run. This is a much bigger factor than the initial price. I ran 305/30/18 fronts and 335/30/18 rear Hoosiers. They lasteda weekend. Go price a set of those. In American Iron, I am running a set of 275/45/17 Toyo R888's. Check the price on these. I have heard that they should last at least two weekends. Check prices on cages, suspension pieces, wheels, anything.

Look at the cars that are in the class that you expect to run in and calculate how much you think it will be to build your car to that class. If it is a stock class, then you might be ok.

I loved my Corvette, and it was definately faster......but speed per dollar to run it was not even close to the F-body.

My R888s better last more than two weekends! Most folks get more than 1/2 a season out of Toyos.

Ok friends..let me explain the kind of amateur road racing ( track days ) we do here, is no car rules. Our main competitors on our group are a few exotics, like Porsches GT3RS, some Modenas (only sometimes) and the rest of the field are a couple street modified SRT-4s and some more mundane and slower european and japanese machinery. We are a group of 4gen F-body drivers/fans with some modifications; usually, more engine, either NAs or superchargers, big wheels, tires, aftermarket brakes, GC/Koni coil overs, swaybars, bushings and so on.

There is a friend with good hands (natural talent) and nerves, who is running with the Porsches on a C5Z06 STOCK! ( Amazing, right?). So now we have some investment on our F-bodies already. Thinking to migrate to a C5Z06 would mean some stiff money now, especially because our mexican peso has lost 40% its dollar value the last weeks and everything we use we buy from USA. I know very well from past experiences ( I used to vintage race a 71 L48 with little modifications with excelent results ) the Camaro is the cheapest racing car you can have on earth and still go pretty fast and for a long time. But my concern is the next tough question: Would it make sense to go the Vette chassis and investment on parts, considering the related cost or better stay with our good, old, reliable, noble and still fast F-bodies?