I have a question. Most of you on here are good welders. I was wondering where ya'll learned it? Do you just pick up over the yrs. or were you trained, etc?

I've played around with a stick welder more times than I remember and I've got the basic idea from welding on farm equipment, etc. However, I would like to get into MIG and TIG welding....I'm just curious where to start.

Buy a MIG first. If you can stick, you can learn to MIG. Mig welding is probably the easiest type of welding to pick up. Get some help from a friend if you can, if not, start reading and playing with scrap metal. You'll learn to mig like a pro in no time. Weld stuff together and then bend, break and/or cut it back apart. See what makes a good bond and what doesn't. Once you know what it takes to get the metal fully fused, you're on your way.

Just buy a decent quality welder and be realistic about what you want to weld with it. If you need a 220v machine, buy one, if you wish to do thin stuff, a 110v machine will do.

TIG welding has proven to be far more difficult (at least to me) than I expected it to be. I would seriously recommend a MIG long before you buy a TIG. It's not impossible to reverse the order, but it sure is more difficult.

Take a class - community college, welding supply shop, whatever. I hacked around myself for too long, just a little bit of time with a pro got me going in the right direction.

I realized that I forgot to say exactly what Alan said. In fact, I've got classes lined up myself at a local college. It sure can't hurt.

I've been thinking of taking some classes too. I do a fair job now. But it would be nice to get certifed too.

I learned to weld at Tarrant County College in Fort Worth, TX. I have an AAS in Welding Technology.

You don't need a degree to learn to weld though.

All manual welding processes are equally difficult to master. There are many advantages and disadvantages to each process. Once you have mastered all of them, TIG welding is the easiest, Stick welding is the most versatile, and MIG/Flux-core welding are the fastest.

What is your ultimate goal?

union trained and certified. butt welding pipe with 100% x-ray is a hell of a lot harder and more complicated then just slapping some tubes together and running a stringer or two.

My Dad taught me to TIG Aluminum at age 10, from there the rest was easy. I surprised a lot of Millwrights that used to work for me as a young engineer when I'd grab thier welder and run a bead and tell them "I want it just like that!" Pissed them off at first, but won me a lot of respect from them, over time they would never question me when I caught them taking shortcuts.

My dad taught me the basics of how to stick weld when I was very, very young. Then, 40 years later, I begin to try again.

My dad was trained via the GI bill after WW2 and worked in shipyards on the east coast for years. Then he came back to Texas and began building drilling rigs for oil, gas and water.

I messed around for a while by myself(couple years) then I set about doing it right. After I became a CWI at work I decided I needed to become proficient at what I was inspecting. I've been taught by our day to day and maintenance contract welders working outages at our plant (coal fired utility boilers). (ASME code, x-ray quality tube welds for those that don't know). I should be taking a tube test tig root, tig hot pass and stick cap in 6G before the end of the year. Lately I've been welding 4 to 6" pipe (not on the boiler but service water in the plant) and some boiler tube with the tube welders that work for me when time permits.

FWIW I've met more than a few expert TIG welders that cannot stick weld worth a damn. In some cases TIG is the easiest process for a 'real' welder because there is so much independent control. BTW, all of our TIG welding at the plant is scratch start w/o remote amperage control, so don't let people tell you that you need the latest top of the line inverter machine to TIG weld. (Just a pet peeve of mine)

Don't listen to the internet hoopla about just burning tons of wire/rod and practicing....that's part of it but you need quality instruction from someone. In fact it's best to get it from multiple people. Everyone has a different way of doing things and you will learn a lot faster than working by yourself.

Some good points here- but you're not going to make welds per D17.1 specs without high-frequency-start and remote amperage control. If your goal is learning how to TIG weld aluminum to aerospace specs, then you must have remote amperage control. Proper starts and stops on any material require remote amperage control. Since 99% of the people welding today are not working even close to aerospace specs, scratch start without remote amperage control is good enough. You don't have to buy an inverter in order to have remote amperage control and high-frequency-start; these are common parts of 99% of the TIG welding machines on the market.

Your comment about inverter technology is true. The Miller Dynasty is the best readily-available TIG welder on the market, but you must have expert-level-knowledge of welding in order to take advantage of it's abilities. Throwing down $6,000 to $10,000 on a Dynasty is useless for novices and most welding professionals. Once you learn what a Dynasty can do, everything else is garbage.

Still learning!

I simply went and bought a good, but not expensive, Miller 110v mig machine. It came with all the stuff to weld - gas lines, helmet, etc. I simply had to pick up a gas cylinder from the local store.

I started by watching some videos. The best ones are the ones that show you what the weld is actually doing - not the ones with a bright spot of light and some guy talking. Simply put, you want to see some guy make a puddle, move a few mm, make another puddle, repeat. Then, I started sticking metal together.

It was bad at first. I'd set the wire speed too high, or the power too low, and it'd sputter all over the place and do weird things. I finally figured most of it out. But, a HUGE help is to find a print out a guide that tells you suggested settings for what you're welding. You may change a little, but it'll get you in the ballpark.

Honestly, and others (who are better than me at this) may disagree, it's MUCH more of an art than a science. Sure, the analyzation of it is all science. But, actually DOING it is pure art. You have to picture the finished product in your mind, then translate that to your hands.

Oh, another thing that helps me a LOT is to practice right before I weld something. I've found that, because I weld once every blue moon, I get out of practice. If I start welding what I want to weld, I get in the rhythm just about 1" from the finish, while most of the weld looks like bird poop. But, if I waste some time and wire running a few beads on a similar thickness of metal before working on the real piece, I get much better welds once I actually start.

Finally, if it's something important, I take it to a pro. On my car, I've welded my side mirror mounts, my camera mount, and a few other things that don't matter. But, when I needed custom front LCAs made, I didn't even try. I just brought them to my friend (pro welder) to TIG and make.

Yeah, thanks for the replies. I'm not real interested in getting to a "pro" level (though that would be cool...). I'm more interested in just doing it for myself. I figure its just another step with regards to working on cars. I've welded a few a simple parts on the Camaro, like the swaybar mounts, but I'd never do anything much beyond that, yet. It'd be cool to be able to weld up exhausts, etc. I'll have to start doing some reading and see if I can get my hands on a MIG.

I agree with everything you've said above, but will take exception to this:



Nice but not necessary, unless you meant that in reference to D17.1 as well. I'm not familar with D17.1. I'm just a power plant guy.

I think we're both saying the same thing I used the extreme of bare-bones tig welding with any CC power source to contrast a Dynasty and show that "It's the violinist, not the violin." A good welder can make high quality welds without a fancy machine. Now for aluminum yeah you're going to need an actual tig machine, but the novice needn't concern himself with fine tuning wave forms, balance, pulsed tig, etc. A used transformer machine like a Syncrowave or Precision Tig can be found quite cheeply now that many are upgrading to inverters. IF you have a power supply that can feed a big transformer machine. Wouldn't it be cool if we got an energy-savings tax credit for inverters?

Disclaimer: I only work with ASME Sec I, Sec VIII, Sec IX, B31.1. , B31.3, NBIC, and D1.1.

Exhaust is "easy"...it's easy because it's not structural. If a muffler weld fails it's generally no big deal (assuming it doesn't fly off and go through someones window). A sway bar mount is far more critical.

As for Migs, go look at the Hobart line of Mig welders. Miller and Lincoln build machines to a higher standard and have some really nice stuff, but the Hobart line is filled with good to very good quality welders for fairly reasonable prices. I have a Hobart Handler 210 amp Mig and it's been outstanding. I also have a used Lincoln Squarewave Tig 175 that I found a good deal on and it's a great welder, but I'm still learning to make use of it's capabilities (I'm a Tig "owner" not a Tig "welder" right now).

Oh, also - check Craigslist for used machines close to you. I got my Miller (I think it's a "Miller 140") used, with perhaps 2 hours of welding on it. It was something like $600 new. I got it for about $200 or so. Other than checking for basic cleanliness and obvious damage, I don't know what to look for. Perhaps some other can help?

I got my Miller 320 TIG for $875 off ebay 4 years ago. It is old, big, heavy, and way more machine than I need (250 amps), but it was cheap and works better than I can work it.


Re: remote amp control
I'd think the good welds would be equally as good for either, but I think it would be a lot harder to get consistently good welds without it. One example is at the end of a part the amps need to be turned down to keep it from getting to hot. If your butt welding pipe this wouldn't matter.

There is no one more frugal (cheap) than me.

But it has become grossly obvious to me that with a welder, you really do get exactly what you pay for. It wasn't until I got my new welder that this became obvious.

Hobart welders will definitely weld metal. But the Miller 135 I had was a lot easier to use than the old Hobart I used a long time ago. And this new Miller 212 is light years ahead of my old Miller 135.

Its hard to explain and even harder to justify the expense till you've made the transition.

I fully agree Mitch. I wasn't slighting the nicer machines (I'm lusting after the one you bought, or the 250 amp big brother) as much as stating that the Hobarts are quite good and win the dollar per amp contest while being very respectable. If a Miller or Lincoln is in your budget when you go shopping, buy one with complete confidence that you're buying a nice machine. If your budget leaves you picking between a 140 amp or smaller (110v) Miller/Lincoln or a 175+ amp (220v) Hobart, I'd take the extra power and buy the Hobart (assuming you have 220v available).

If your budget fits a 175+ amp Miller/Lincoln buy one and never look back. You do get what you pay for...if you can afford it. (Still saving my pennies to buy a Miller Mig and lusting after a nice Synchrowave tig).

Anyone have advice on a used unit? Are these the types of things that you should always buy new? Or, can a good used one be worth it?

Before I bought my mig welder, I asked the welders at work what to look for. They all preferred a sleeved gun, and they liked metal feed gears. Stay away from the stuff you see at home improvement stores, unless you won't use it too much. Hobart uses Miller guns on some of their units. I bought a Millermatic 175, but wouldn't hesitate to buy a used unit. It's like buying a used car...see how the guy maintains toys and the overall condition of the machine. I think someone pointed that out elsewhere. I think I paid about 575.00 a few years ago for mine with gauges, a cart, a video, and a roll of flux core wire. You may want to look at "Cyberweld" for almost anything associated with welding. Free shipping in the USA and good prices.

And I wasn't slighting the Hobart either. For years I figured it would be "good enough".

For exhausts and such stuff its probably OK. But if you start building cages, seat mounts, gussetts ... you know, things you are putting your life in the hands of, well ...

Couple of things that I don't think anybody has mentioned yet . . .

I really don't know how to put it into words, but the sound that the welding process makes is some indication of how well things are going. I think it was one of the weldors in the maintenance dep't where my Dad worked that told me that one.

Acetylene welding with steel wire. If you don't learn a thing or two about welding and the weld puddle from trying this, you probably won't no matter what process you try.


Mostly, my own learning has come in little bits like that. Dad tackwelded plates together in a shipyard during WWII, and an uncle grew up on a farm and had a little buzz-box, so I at least had a little guidance in the beginning. I wouldn't rate myself as a "good welder", although with only a few exceptions (involving metal of dubious weldability), the things I've welded together have stayed that way, including some frame structure weld repair on one of my cars. It's not always pretty, and likely not good enough to get certified with. Adequate, I guess.


Norm

Mitch, you know I love ya brother, but I don't think anyone here should get the impression that a 220v Hobart is only good for welding exhaust... (And I'd say the same thing if I'd only used one and owned something else...though I will admit that I've been eyeballing a larger 250 amp Miller or Lincoln...just because I'm in the mood) I've used several of the 110v welders (Lincoln, Hobart, Craftsman and a 220v Snap On and some others, though I've not had my hands on any of the Miller machines) and the arc control on the larger Hobart machine is as good or better than any machine I've personally ever used. It has enough power to blow holes in 1/4" plate steel, if the person with the torch does their job they'll have complete fusion of anything that goes under the arc.

Yup, there are nicer machines with "soft arc start" and higher duty cycles. That's going to make it a bit nicer to use, but there are many machines currently on the market that are more than capable of doing an excellent job for less than a mortgage payment.

As for me personally, the reduced cost of the Hobart saved me enough money to pay for my used Lincoln Tig. Given the choice of a 210 amp Hobart mig and a 175 amp Lincoln tig, or a $1600 mig... I'd personally buy both of my current machines all over again.

As always, your results may vary and nobody has to agree with me...

i bought a Craftsman MIG 110v 5 years ago and it works great and is so practical. i've done about 6 custom exhaust on cars, made a trailer for my Glastron GT150 among other projects. i bought it having never welded before and i just practiced. MIGs are easy!

Well, a lot of welders say that and there is some truth to it. But Adjusting by sound does not make a quality weld. The way your MIG welding process sounds is governed by the mode of transfer. Mode of transfer is governed by 'Welding Procedure Specifications'. A WPS is a process that is proven through destructive and non-destructive testing to be an effective weld process.

So, you can not hear if your weld is good quality, but you can tell what mode of transfer you are using.

In MIG welding there are 4 distinctly different modes of transfer:
I. Short-Circuit Arc Transfer - Sound = Sizzle - The sound comes from continuous short circuiting. You are hearing the sound of electric arcs initiating many times per second consistently. This mode of transfer is not allowed in structural applications. It is best suited for sheet metal 1/8" thick or less.

II. Spray Arc Transfer - Sound = Hiss - The sound is a continuous hiss because the arc never extinguishes. This mode is recognized and acceptable for structural welding applications. You can use this mode for thin sheet metal also, but there will be excessive heat input resulting in warpage, burn through and grayed-out welds.

III. Globular Transfer - Sound = Random Crackling and Popping - This mode has an inconsistent sound because molten balls of filler metal are forming at the end of the electrode in random sizes and dropping to the weld puddle. The arc extinguishes and reinitiates at random times. This mode of transfer is unacceptable in most welding codes and must be proven out if it is going to be used. Globular transfer can be very effective, but you need to be very good in order to overcome the inconsitency that is inherent in this process.

IV. Pulsed-Spray Transfer- Sound = Obnoxious Buzz - The sound comes from an electronic on/off switch that is precisely controlled and adjustable. The arc is intentionally turned on/off in order to minimize excess heat input as well as provide a high level of arc control. Pulsed spray is the most versatile way to MIG weld. You can use it in every application very effectively. Unfortunately, you need to have extensive welding knowledge to take advantage of the full potential of this process. Once you have been taugt how to take advantage of proper pulse equipment, you'll never want to go back to constant voltage.

There is a LOT to learn about MIG welding. It seems simple and most people can make it happen, but when it's time to get serious you need to know your sh!t.


In Stick welding there is only one bad thing you can hear. You can hear when someone is "long-arcing". Holding the electrode to far away from the puddle causes porosity, inconsistency, arc wandering and is unacceptable in many applications. In DC stick welding, you should only hear the crackle of flux burning. In AC stick welding, you will only hear the buzz of alternating current.

In TIG welding you should not hear anything other than a light arc hiss in DC welding or buzzing in AC welding. Any other sound comes from dipping the tungsten into the puddle or stabbing the tungsten with filler rod.

Flux-Core welding only has one acceptable mode of transfer- Spray-Arc Transfer. The sound is a constant hiss just like spray arc in MIG with the addition of random crackling from the flux.

Best quote in the entire thread.



offtopic

One of our power plants, building a new supercritical unit, has been using a modified short circuit process for large, heavy wall P91 main steam and reheat lines:

http://www.millerwelds.com/resources/artic...IG-lead-the-way

It's pretty slick, but time will tell. It makes the old timers nervous though.

I'm going to agree with Kevin, there is no reason a properly sized, newer Hobart will keep you from making sound welds on a roll cage. I'd recommend the Hobart Handler 210 for most people. Although if money is available the MM211 or 212 is a better machine, but few people can really justify the 212.

I learned at work, I played with the MIG during lunch and then started using a stick for structural apps and got reasonable at that. I became respectable at MIG after 40 hrs or so of playing and then some guidance from a friend that I worked with that used to do aircraft maintenance/welding. He had told me that I had it pretty well down and was impressed. My horizontal welds were solid and then I tried vertical and overhead... whole other ballgame. Eventually I became proficient there as well. I bought an old machine off a guy I knew that was closing his buisness, it's worked great and I'velearned more, but I wish for a modern machine that will weld more and is smaller.

A little guidance and a good bit of practice is the key. I would love to learn TIG, but it's likely an issue of I have to buy one and then take classes to learn it.

I'm not usual... My first welder purchase was a Lincoln TIG 185, and I'm self taught. It took many hours of practice before I had any welds that looked even somewhat decent. TIG is nice in that you can speed up and slow down as needed (indeed, you can even hold a tiny puddle in one spot for as long as you want). TIG is pretty slow, but for one off kinds of things that doesn't matter much. It has a lot less smoke and splatter than MIG. Safety warning: TIG is much brighter and easier to get sunburned -- 1 or 2 minutes is enough to give you a burn you'll feel for weeks. You also need a special TIG helmet since it is so much brighter. TIG takes 3 limbs (torch hand, dip rod hand, and foot control), so it can be challenging welding in the car.