Hey all,

Another question regarding math, engineering, school, etc.

What kind of math would I be doing in engineering school, and using day-to-day?

I've been trying to figure the whole algebra thing out, and a guy's example for his elementary school-aged son has been the best help so far -

http://www.osteele.com/archives/2004/12/gr...grounded-proofs

The algebra itself is stupidly simple - one problem I'm having is deciphering the intent of the problem.

In any case, I'm seeing that there is a "theoretical math", where guys who apparently have nothing better to do discover that there was some number that we didn't really know about yet

Then there's the math that normal people actually use to accomplish things.

I'm going to take the College Math CLEP test for the math requirement for my Associates.

That has the "what is the square root of i?", and other similar philosophical math questions, and, as I understand it, a lot of statistics.

So, do I just need to learn enough to pass the CLEP, and then concentrate on the higher math, or is the "square root of i" going to come into play in electronics engineering?

Thanks again guys.

John

I went for mechanical, but assuming electronics requires something similar, you're going to need to take Calculus I, II, & II, and Differential Equations. A lot more complicated than Algebra, but not too hard if you take your time with it and have a DESIRE to learn it. Right now I'm taking a grad class "Advanced Engineering Math" and it is HARD for me since it's been about 5 years since I graduated or 7 years since I had Calculus.

It's hard to say until you try.

Well, I can't say exactly how useful it will be in your profession... I've heard from some engineers that you don't wind up using a lot of your calculus... however right now I'm in a Calc 3 course where we're studying approximations of functions and I have encountered "i" several times so far. I guess it all comes down to what you'll wind up working with. I guess approximating functions with expansions could be pertinent to some engineering work, although with the complexity and capability of software we have right now, I don't see why you would have to do it by hand. My course actually uses computer software to do the grunt work of the math.

It depends, but for most day-to-day stuff, we won't need to use anything more complicated than a quadratic equation. However, once you start getting into some of the theory-stuff, it can get a little crazy with all the partial differential equations and such. My advice to you would be to enroll in Calculus I, see how you feel about it, and then go from there. Good luck.

It's hard to say. Just because someone has an engineering degree and title when they're working doesn't mean they'll be doing much math at all. I know research engineers who look at data all day and try to sort it out for another set of engineers to work with. They're the people who use the math more. Then you have the engineering managers who have a good idea of what is going on, but just overlook things and calculate financial stuff. You would really have to know what you'll be doing in order to know what math you'll HAVE to know.

If you know the algebra then that is a really good begining, applications of the math should be taught as you need it, not many people understand the imaginary stuff or the proofs... I know I don't. I don't want to say the math is used to weed out those who can't hack it, but it's what I've been told many times. I'm still waiting to see if they're right or not.

It's what got me the first time around, two years ago. I'm giving it another shot this summer.

Is this why they call it the college try...?

Yeah....I barely use math at work.....let alone the engineering math I learned.

Yeah, I should have added that this isn't my first try at college. I'm on my fourth college but the two in the middle were just to gather random credits to stay in the loop, I took a few classes while working full time. Yes... I should have graduated years ago. I didn't want to stop going completely because I knew I would never want to go back. Now I'm counting the days till I graduate... about 376 depending on how finals run next year.

Those are two entirely different questions.

Yes, for some jobs you don't spend much time on math. A lot of the hard stuff is done by simulation programs, etc. However, you still have to understand what's going on under the hood.

OTOH, getting through engineering school will be a LOT easier if you have a firm grasp on the math. That means the "theoretical math" too.

Admitedly, you may not need to get as deep if you don't intend to go beyond an Associate degree. I don't know how the courses differ from the first two years of a Bachelor degree. However, I would still advise you to get as solid a grasp as you can on the math.

OK, not an engineer, but I'll weigh in on the "math" part.

You sound like me. I did not find Algebra itself hard - at least the actual calculations. But, I had a hard time understanding the underlying principles. For instance (basic example), youve got a train going x^2+4x+3 miles per hour. That's all well and good, but where the heck did the equation come from? In real life, some guy would have had to measure the speed of the train, then deduce an equation. If he measured the speed of it first off, then why do I have to solve some stupid equation to find it - why can't the guy just tell me?

Well, when you get your first Calculus course, you find out why. You find that, by reducing the equation to 2x+4, you now know the accelleration of the train (as opposed to constant speed). You can now not only figure out how long it will take him to get from point A to point B, but also how much distance and time to allow for him to reach his cruising speed.

Then, you begin to learn how to find the equations. For me, even though I don't do it on a daily basis, it's always interesting to floor the gas on my car, and know that there is an equation that expresses the exact accelleration and speed of my car. Yeah, I'm a bit odd, but that's me!!

The first math problem is this, How do you do the math to get the engineering degree?

Algerba is only the starting point, 16 hrs of calculus will follow.

What you need on the job is irrelvant until you get the degree.

Z28

Exactly.

Ughhh, you had to remind me.

Taking the placement test tonight, hopefully they don't make me take pre-calc again (did it a couple years ago in high school).

you probably WANT to take it again if you don't know it well, at least, I had to when i did pretty bad with my placement test (i've been out 6-7 years though). I'm glad I did, since you need to know that stuff inside and out for whats coming. but also, my study habits are terrrible, for example, i have two exams tomarrow, i took today off work, and I STILL havent started studying, actually, i'm thinking of taking a nap..... this is why i get C's and D's in math and physics. Really wish i had someoen to study with, that would help

I am a meteorologist, and I had to take math classes almost indentical to the engineering programs. As the others have said, just be prepared to take a lot of time to learn. Once you get into Calc II, III and Diff EQ, you are just going to have to set aside a certain amount of time every day and go over what your lecture covered, and then do the homework problems...and don't let the homework problems stack up to the point where you are doing a week's worth at once because you will quickly find yourself in BIG trouble.....I speak from experience.

The scary part is that I do use my calculus background at work about once or twice per month while working with radioactive dispersion models for nuclear power plants, so it all depends upon what specialty you end up working in.

Yeah, those are both good points... study groups are the best way to get through school. Unless you get all the best professors and don't plan on having much of a social life. If I'm not sitting here at my desk I'm either in class, work, or building the school's MiniBaja (only a few hours a week). At least I have one fun thing mixed in there, but it's also one of the most stressful this semester.

well, i started studying around 10:30, and thought of this thread, and just felt I have to say this,

no matter how much you hate math, after you take some of these courses, if you have any respect for logical thinking, you will learn to appreciate it, and probably even like it. After taking calc 1, and seeing the relationship between numbers (and i mean more than 4 is twice 2 and such), and how you can use things like l'Hopitals rule to get around roadblocks, or how the first or second derivative can be used to find increasing or decreasing acceleration - or even max and min when optimizing for something, and now in calc 2 where we are workign with sequences and series, to find things that i would have never guessed possible with so little information, like a simple equation.

you will never look at numbers the same again when you get this far, and I have yet to go farther....

I have to say, I hate doing the work, but its the only way to learn it. now with that said, i want to learn it, i just don't want all the monkey wrenches thrown in there, like ln and e (if you don't know what it is, natural log and eulors number), sicne I don't understand them well, it screws me up in every problem.

as far as looking at the subject of math as a hurdle that you hope not to cross down the road, I think its the wrong attitude (I share alot of that same attitude though), whats more important is (and I think you need a good instructor for this) to generate a curiosity of numbers and thier relationships, and then you walk away with a lesson that goes far beyond a mathematical theorem, but in the end you end up with a a good excersize in logical thinking that only somethign like calculus can give.

the more I think about it, the only subject i've taken that can compare (and yet doesnt due to limited exposure) is my C programmign class, you will learn alot about how to think logically in a course like that, but 1 programming course doesnt compare to years of mathematical study.

I don't want to go on forever, and I need to get back to studying, but you really should embrace this stuff, if it at all becomes interesting, it wont be much of a hurdle, and I can only see myself benefitting from taking more of this stuff. I hope all this makes some sense, I have to go back to looking at greek letters now

In related news... I've got a calc III midterm tomorrow...

Wish me luck so it doesn't ...

good luck... remember 1+2 =3 ... you should be fine.

I actually love doing math, and algebra....I use it in the course of my work as an electronics technician. The algebra, once I figure what it is that I'm doing, is easy for me. The problem that I have is something like 00 Trans Ram's.

The best way that I can think of to describe it is trying to read the instructions on how to change brake pads, but the instructions are written in Chinese (Bob???). Once I've deciphered the instructions, doing it is easy.

Also, I'm not trying to find the easiest way through, math-wise, but I want to concentrate more on what I'll actually be using. That's where I was talking about the theoretical math, etc.

I want to get into Electronics Engineering, specifically Electronic Warfare. From what I have found, there's a whole lot of off the wall math there....stuff like MM3D - Methods of Moment in 3 Dimensions? It's used for modeling radar scatter off of surfaces, and was used in the design of the F-117 Stealth Fighter.

So, that's the level of math that's ahead of me, and I look forward to it.

An EE I spoke with yesterday told me that a lot of the algebra will make sense, and that I'll actually learn it, once I get into Calculus. Anybody else notice that?

Pimpmaro, good luck tomorrow

If anybody has any ideas, I'm open to hearing them. Thanks again.

John

Yep. Before calculus, each class presents you with a new set of equations to memorize for a new set of special cases. In calculus you learn the general, unified theory that ties it all together, and how to handle the "real world" stuff that isn't all perfect geometric shapes.

You'll also find that a lot of the math is remarkably similiar across disciplines. For example, the equation for calculatinging the effective total rate of stacked springs (ignoring leaf springs) is identical to the equation for calculating the effective total value of capacitors wired in series.