I can never seem to decide which way I want to go in my automotive travels. I enjoy my 2002 and it's a great car, quick, handles well, etc. I don't really want to run it at track events as a daily driver. I've been considering a 3rd gen for a long time now and I have some options.

I have a car lined up in VA that I can go pick up. It's an '83 chassis (not the best year), an automatic, a hard top and has no engine in it. However, the price is "right".

I have a local friend who's car I could buy. It's not CMC legal and it's not enough motor for AIX (though I might run ok in AI). Considerably more money, but a nicer car.

I've been looking at the specials on trucks lately (Dodge is way overstocked on inventory and they may be giving them away soon, they have good incentives now) and thinking of "de-modding" my car and trading it in. I'll keep what I can use and sell off the rest of my parts towards the new car (being a 3rd gen, only the rear suspension stuff will swap). The real concern is, can I get rid of enough of the parts from the current car? And, will I be sorry for getting rid of the 2002?

I don't understand why you can't use your daily driver as the track car. I did that for a couple of years and I never had any regrets. It seems that the right car is already in your garage.

As an alternative, have you considered a backup daily driver instead of the path you are heading down?

Yea, I have. I considered a truck or a used Audi A6 (most recently) and some others.

I would stick with the 02 Kevin, it isn't "race ready" but it not far from it, and is the best car to have for the new CMC-S or AI classes

Get an old suburban for a tow vehicle, get the wife the A6 and you drive the VW DONE! I know sell the arsenal you have under the house

Oh yeah, then hold a BBQ (let's strip my car/ build a race car) weekend at your house

JMO

Hmm.... I'm not sure I want to wheel to wheel (CMC-S) this car. I bought it new, my baby, etc.... And, SB Chevy parts cost about a dollar each (heads, 300+ cfm at .700 lift for $685 each...assembled and aluminum). This is why I haven't done anything yet, but it's getting tempting.....

So, either way, I'm probably racing "something else", but maybe not..... I guess I really don't know.

I was at the same crossroads Kevin, but I'm going ahead and getting a 4-point rollbar installed along with a good seat and harness in my 99 Z. I want to learn how to drive well (enough) on a road course before I buy the racecar (which will hopefully be either CMC or an F-body in another class). I'm not ready to start full-on racing yet, so I will just be entering HPDEs and AXs for the next couple of years.

Howdy,

What's your goal? Do you want to race or do trackdays?

For racing, I agree that your current car seems a bit of a goofy choice... That's a lot of cash to tie up in a car that's gonna get beat one. I think I'd go with a cheaper 4th gen over a 3rd though, so that more of your current parts would transfer.

If for track days, I'd say to keep your current car and just track it more.

Either way, a truck (newer if you go with a "race" 4th gen) & open trailer seems like a good way to go. That'd give you a backup daily driver in case something is happening with the trackday car or be your primary daily driver with the race car.

As for the truck... Carefully check out mileage figures if you have much of a commute at all. For us, the cummins in our 2500 pays for itself in improved mileage over the v10 in our old truck. Not that the v10 is especially great for mileage of course... :-) I'd also buy a 3/4 ton vs. a half ton, no matter which marque I was going with. The little bit of extra money buys you _a lot_ more truck, which will put up with about anything you want to throw at it.

FWIW, our quad cab 2500 Dodge makes a super daily driver compared to everything else we've used, with the exception of mileage. And at 18mpg empty, its still better than most trucks/suvs. Comfort-wise, its awesome.

Mark

Kevin,

I've got an '85 Z stripper with a nearly new 350 HO crate in it --carb motor. Previous owner said less than 6k miles on it coupled to an A4.

Guess that will muddy the stream a little bit..........

If I stay 4th gen, it would be another LS1 car. Working on LS1's is bad enough, but LT1's are "miserable" (in my experience). So, it's either a 3rd gen or an LS1 4th gen.

Andy, is that the red one? PM me a price.....

Kevin you just need another 4th gen in the driveway, My white bird would look great in the driveway. LOL Oh yeah I'll put it back to esp trim for ya..LOL

John

PM sent. Water muddied.

Going filter shopping.....

...buying a pre built car is ALWAYS cheaper and easier....

But not as much fun......but in your position, I would buy a built/raced car for a first one.....

Well...I guess I'll mud up the waters some more...
<steps up on soapbox>

Purpose built car. Say it with me. Purpose built car. Yes. Nice.

Do you want a race car or a car that is raced? Huge difference. Long term what do you want? A car that you can track hard and not worry about? A car that you can find inexpensive parts for? A car that was designed to go 100% for hundreds of laps and will wear you out before you can wear it out. Yes...purpose built car.

Cooling issues, hub issues, brake issues, PITA to work on, blah blah blah. I've raced production based cars in everything from circle track to IT to AS, rally, and of course autocross/hpde/etc. I've raced purpose built cars in roadracing and circle track. There is no comparison. A 'car that is raced' or a race car.

The best places to find them are asphalt circle track 'late models'. Obviously make sure it is a symmetrical car and not an 'offset' chassis. Finding 'rollers' is not too hard and can frequently be found for less than 5k. Slip in an LS1 with an ASA PCM and you never have to mess with carbs and timing issues and it will start every time. Or run a cheap 355 that you can put 400rwhp out of. Weights can be down as low as 2400lbs and wheels/tires are wide open.

Parts: Stupid cheap. Lefthander, Stock Car Products, Coleman, Smileys, and tons of others.

Nowhere that I know of can you go fast for as cheap for so long. The car will wear you out long before you can wear it out. 400rwhp and 2400lbs on 10" wide tires. What hpde car can match that performance anywhere near that price, much less durability.

Just food for thought.

Costas
cars and such...

Personally, I would stick with the LS1 car. They make more reliable HP than anything else ive seen, and out of all the V8 offerings its prolly the easiest to work on. Not to mention one of the more simpler and lighter offerings.

I know it's tough to make that first cut on something thats part of you, but sell it and some stranger will be thrashing it - with resale so low on these cars I'd try to look past that and be honest about the $$ cost flipping it for an older car.

If the LS1 still doesn't work, consider that once the LT1 cars are race prepped, they are not so tough to work on - plugs/wires are easy without smog and heater. WP/opti is easy without A/C, just pull the radiator. Heads, yes, are a backbreaker - it's better to take the 2hrs and pull the motor, but that won't change with an LS1.

Alan, I converted my '89 Formula from daily driver to "full cage, 22 gallon fuel cell, -8 braided lines up front and back, etc". So, I've been down that road (and might do it again). I got to the end, the headers and oil pan didn't fit together. I had both modified and finally got mad and sold the entire project (after putting 30k in it). It had been apart for 6 years and I decided I was "done" with it. It became the "get it out of my garage" special. I put the chassis up on Ebay the week of the attacks in New York. It got one bid, $500. I sold it with cage, fuel cell, Mallory comp 100 EFI pump, filters, braided lines and a harwood hood (and the T-tops). I took a beating on that one when I sold it, but I was moving and needed it gone. So, I'm trying not to repeat past mistakes.

My other thought is, I can tear down SB Chevy's in my sleep (I used to have the torque values and sequences memorized and will again if needed). No fancy valve spring compressors, no metric hardware and again, parts are a "dollar". I know 3rd gens inside and out (as far as repair goes) and am comfortable with them. That's why I was/am leaning that way.

Costas, you are 100% right and I'll probably be 100% stupid and build something out of an F-body. I'm not sure if I want to go CMC/AI/AIX or AV8SS racing (but it will probably be one of those). I might get it running and do track days with it for a bit, get it sorted and find it a home (before it's too far gone for one class or the other).

If you aren't going to go race car then I'd recommend that you go with what you know.

SBC + Third gen. Cage (to stiffen the chassis as much as safety), sfc's, big brakes and big wheels/tires. I daily drive my 92 1le/b4c, but did an lt1/6sp swap in another one that had springs, big sfc's and it was a DREAM to drive. Stupid fast, mucho light, very easy to get to things (vs 4th gen), great grip and brakes. A buddy did an ls1/6sp swap in his 88 iroc and I drove it for him at an autocross and it was an awesome car also. Needed springs and sfc's, but the awesome power with the nimbleness was incredible.

I don't think I'll ever change my 1le, but if I did, it would be awful tough to NOT put in an lt1/ls1, do sfcs and springs and 11's and go crush some folks. Thankfully I love to run FS and daily drive it (cold ac baby!) AND have enough 'other' projects that keep the 1le safe from modding.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do, but from what you've said it seems like you should go 3rd gen.

Costas
cars and such...

Hey kevin heres a car for you.

ebay

Hey check out some funny things in the Decription.

John

Since CMC-S was announced many are foaming over the cheap '96 LT1 Formula I have for sale! Would be a great car with the option to run in CMC with a restrictor plate or yank it out and run it in CMC-S.

Personally I am not fond of the way restrictor plates work on LT1s presently in CMC, causing some wierdness in some rpm spots if you lose momentum. This is not very often, however, does happen on occasion. There are still 100 pluses to running the restricted LT1 in CMC. Take out the plate though and the engine is happy all the time! The LS1 will have to be restricted to run the CMC-S 280hp 300ft-lbs torque, I imagine the wierdness will occur with that motor too. On the other hand, that is easy stock unrestricted LT1 territory!

Man, I have to have that car. It's apparently so fast that I'll instantly explode from the heat of doing mach 3.....(with rear drum brakes even.....). And, I love how the seatbelt is mounted....someone is going to get seriously hurt in that car if it's in an accident.....

don't forget it doesnt have a Brake fluid cap, it doesnt need to be there it just makes a mess.

John

Geez, he could of at least stuck a rag in it.....

Maybe it was a 3/4 ton brake fluid cap - they do weigh more, ya know...

.....and that right there is why it is ALWAYS cheaper/smarter/easier to buy a well sorted, preped, ready to race car.....

You can always find the guy who has committed to another race car/series, and NEEDS to unload his current car....or guys like yourselft that just nickel and dimed themselfs to death, and just run out of steam on a project, then sell it for pennies on the dollar...smart way to get into it....

On the other hand, it is an extremely seductive path to slowly mod and upgrade a current car, or build your own car your way.....I myself have had 2 race cars and I built BOTH from scratch myself......not smart, but it was something I wouldn't trade for anything......of course, I spent $5 for every $1 I would have spent on buying a similar car from someone else....

The smart man would buy a "depreciated" race car, race it, and if it is not for them, for whatever reason, they can sell it for less of a loss....JMHO...

Noticed your post and as usual I feel the need to add my two cents as your advisor and friend. You've got to get over your hand wringing and get racing. The only way that'll happen if you can do it both cheaply and in a car you can wreck. You are right. You're never going to feel comfortable racing you current car. You are too attached to it both emotionally and financially. It is not what you need to go racing. You need a plan that will not require more debt, so that you'll have the money to go racing.

My suggested plan:
1. Get focused on racing now or you'll be using social security checks to fund your late mid life crisis.
2. Stop spending money anything wasteful. Money on other hobbies (guns, computers, & house). Money on fast food and dinner out more than once a week. Cooking at home is healthier and cheaper. Take it from one who knows there are plenty of meals to be made within 30 minutes of getting home without much work.
3. Sell off what ever toys except the ones you can absolutely not live without.
4. Clean out the garage and sell off anything you can.
5. Put your the 02 Camaro back to stock and sell the parts that are not allowed in CMC.
6. Buy a reasonably priced reliable used tow vehicle. Here's 38 found within 100mi of you.Tow Vehicle Search @ AutoTrader.com
7. Take the '83 chassis you have lined up in VA to build a cheap car to race. Build it for CMC. Do not waste any $, like I have on my car or like your old '89 Formula, with unnecessary changes. Keep it simple and light and cheap.
8. Sell the 02 Camaro. Less debt, less insurance $, less $ speeding tickets, less garage space (reason to move and spend more $), less temptation for spending on a car that is not on the race car. I know you'll miss her. I know commuting in a pickup truck is boring. You will make up for it with fun on the track.

I know this plan means sacrifices but...
1. it solves worries about racing your 02 baby.
2. it does not get you in to more debt.
3. it allows you to put together a low buck car that you won't care if you wreck on the track.
4. it allows you to finally race competitively.

Forgive me if this sounds harsh. I'm just trying to help. You need get out on the track. It's in your DNA. You just need a reasonable plan to remove the "can't afford to" and "can't crash it" barriers to make it happen.

Damn, Bill brings the logic.....again.

For those who don't know. Bill and I have been racing/crewing and road tripping together for many years now (and working on his road race project car, though his move to Manhattan has crimped that a bit). He's the one of us who's good with money (and a pretty smart guy).....

Spring is the best time to sell off a beast like mine. I'm still considering plans to do so. The question is, will it being "winter" be more of a hinderance than the extra depreciation of a few more months (but it being "in season").

Howdy,



Assuming you're going to try and sell the car with the mods in place... You need to find the right buyer more than you need to sell it in the right season.

Put it up for sale now, and if you don't get an offer you want... So what?

(and I agree with your buddy re: advice to start racing, presuming of course that you want to sacrifice the other stuff to go racing... There's nothing wrong with not wanting to do that if you'd rather not.)

Mark

Nah, I'd probably de-mod it and then ditch the remainder. I can probably generate a couple grand out of all of the parts on it. If I sell the car assembled, I'd probably wind up giving the parts away and hoping to get close to "book" out of it (with the parts). So, that's probably the more correct plan. Or, demod it for race car budget and drive it somewhat stock (if I can handle that). Then trade it on a truck at some point.

Well some one had to. As I'm caged up here in Gotham till the spring I'd like to see one of us have some fun. Hopefully my plan to move us to a place with a garage in NJ will enable me to work on getting out on the track too. I know the reduced rent, taxes, costs won't hurt.

Regarding the depreciation question... What's another 6 months on a 2002? Can't be that dramatic. I'd start getting it back to stock now. I'd think that winter time is ideal for selling parts so that buyers can install them before next year's racing season. Besides I know you love working in the garage in the winter time. Start now so you won't be behind in 2007.

And I still contend that trading your current car in on a new truck is a bad idea. Dealers won't want your car. A third party will likely give you more $. Sell it outright and use the proceeds to buy an already depreciated used truck. Let someone else waste their dollars on the inflated new truck price. You of all people should know (given your sales experience) that the value of a new vehicle is much less than any deal that a dealership will give you. Values drop as soon as you drive it off the lot. I know financing can look good but in the long run, less debt due to lower starting price is better. Especially if you can use the $ from selling the 2002 Camaro to cover a chunk of the costs. Financing $5 to 10k at used car rates is still less than financing $18,000+ at new car rates even from desparate dealers.

Here you go kev, $5500.

http://www.t-boneranch.com/racing/forsale_ls1.html

ITs been up for awhile don't know if its sold yet

Dislike the cage! You get what you pay for there!

I was thinking that one scared me a bit too....

That is an R&R job for sure.....good news is it looks stripped and ready to prep.....new cage day 1 for SURE!

It says Wheel 2 Wheel did the cage, the've done a few World Challnege Cars. It'd be worth a look at least and possibly update the cage a bit.

Yeah .. a LONG while. I looked at it before I started building mine.

Julie ... you're spoiled. You've got that Alan Blaine silver spoon thing going. We all can't have the best, you know.

Yes I am spoiled!

Sure can - truck your car here, or meet me in Phoenix ;-) bring silver ;-)