I was at a friends house yesterday (440 miles from home) to look at a 3rd gen shell that I can get for a great price. It's not a real desirable car for anything other than a track car. Let me try to explain (since it was dark and we were using a flashlight, I didn't think to try taking pics).

It's a '84-ish Berlinetta. It has the 85 mph speedo with the kmh scale on the other side (the double needle setup). It has idiot lights for temp, oil presure and voltage. The seats are blue vinyl and ripped. The car was purchased for the 6,000 mile goodwrench 350 that was in it, the engine and the automatic are gone (not that I care about the auto, there aren't many things that are worse than an early 700R-4). The body is straight and seem solid, there is slight damage to the fender lip on the front drivers side 1/4 panel. The rubber nose is chipped up (looks like it hit something and popped the paint off), but it's otherwise solid and not torn up. It has a rear and all the suspension is there. Some of the wiring under the hood is stripped and wrapped in electrical tape (I was told that was the distributor wiring), the Y-pipe is still in the car, manifolds are in the hatch, etc.

The bottom line is that this is a fairly straight body in an unloveable car (there is no saving that interior) and it's a hardtop. I'd be starting from scratch, gutting the interior, wiring the car, installing a manual (I've done 5 and 6 speed swaps already), getting it caged, building a motor, etc. The problem is, it's hard to decide to put a 305 back in it since I'll be building from scratch, same for a 5 speed. It's not much more to put a 6 speed in there while I'm already doing it. That would rule out CMC, but maybe I just need a track car anyway, I'll find a class for it later and just do HPDE stuff for a while.

So, do I drag this heap home and likely put $12,000 in it or go buy something that runs?

Kevin,

It is really simple. There are two pairs of questions.

Do you want to build?
Do you want to race?

Can you spend a little money each month?
Can you spend a bunch of money right now?


Project cars (especially from scratch) take piles of money and months/years of time. Some folks really LIKE that kinda fabrication/build stuff and, for them, building it is half the fun. If you are in that group then building is an option.

If you want to be on the track soon, buy a completed, running car. It *WILL* cost you less than building even knowing you will have to un-f#ck some stuff that you don't like the way the previous owner/builder did.

The money part is obvious, I think decent cmc cars go for 8-10k.

Now, not that you asked, but since I'm on my soapbox anyway I'll speak for a moment about car classifications. If you build something to follow NO rules, then it's appeal will be limited should you ever want to get rid of it. Additionally, if you go roadracing with it, you won't really have anyone to play with because you will be in a stupidfast class with an un-optimized car. Give a long thought to where you want to be in five years and work towards that. CMC looks like a helluva fun class and altho your cmc car will be slow in hpde situations, it will help you be a better driver to learn in a momentum car and then when your hpde buddies are still talking about the ferrari they passed this one time at band camp, you can be actually running wheeltowheel in a competitive car in a great series. Ditto for IT classes in SCCA. The cars are slow in hpde format, but running wheel2wheel is the cake, icing, and total hottie bikini girl that jumps out of the cake.

For reference = http://www.nsxfiles.com/Pyramid_of_speed.htm

Hope to see you at the track sometime, somewhere!!

Costas
cars and such...

As much as I would love to do the same thing (find a shell and build a racecar), I'd have to make sure I knew which class I was going into beforehand. I suppose you could build it to CMC spec and just use it in HPDEs until you got ready to move up (which I'd thought about myself), and that may be the best long-term plan if CMC is where you want to be.

If your heart's set on CMC, I'd look at somebody's CMC car that's for sale. I've already seen some in the last few months that are under $12k for a turnkey vehicle. Plus, buying a car that's 90% (or even 80%) ready to race puts you on track sooner, rather than spending six months to a year building the car.

OTOH, if you just have to get dirty and love taking things apart, go for it!

My friend is the assistant race director of the AV8SS. So, I expect I'd be headed that way at some point. If that's the case, I can build nearly anything I want and still be legal (within reason, but they are pretty open with rules). I'd have to watch the cage and a few things, but other than that, it's a displacement/rpm based restrictor class. And, it will take piles of money to run in, but I might just do a few events a year.

I built my 1989 Formula from scratch (out of my street car), got it "done", got mad and sold it all in pieces (and took a beating on it). I probably had $30,000 in that car (I had receipts and it was close to that) and I got about $10,000 out of the parts (give or take). I've been down that road once and that's my debate this time. Do I do it again?

Whats the car going to cost? If your converting to manual and going back to a 305...Id probably hold off for a car that already has at least one or the other. 3rd gens are cheap. dirt cheap.

I bought mine running. 76k miles. Straight...though the paint was shit for 700 bucks and I paid too much.

Half the fun for me is building but after the last project (a 72 jimmy I started in 1996 - not totally finished) I lean toward finding someone's project that they've lost interest in. a cheap body is alway a good starting point. Just think about the time you'll drop in it.

Kevin ... trust me on this ... for $12K you can build a helluva 4th gen LT1 car.

For 12K, Glenn and I will build you a nice CMC legal 94 Formula and deliver it.

I see Pat Stone is selling my CMC 3rd gen for $8500.00 and it is better equipped than the Atlantic Champion 3rd gen priced at $10k. My old car has new black paint now and a brand new motor that broke in nice. That's where the smart money is in fun per $.

I hate it but I'm with Mitch. As much as I curse my 4th gen when working on it, I'd never want to go back to a 305 (for CMC). Reason being that although you save some $$ upfront, if I ever blow my LT1, I can always pick one up a yard and throw it in. If it's down on stock power because it's tired, more than likely I'll still be within spitting distance of the limit. A 305 OTOH usually needs "massaging" to get near the limits.

On the CMC board is a "pre" race car for roughly 3k. Figure you get this 3rd gen for $500. What's a motor and trans gonna cost? You could end up pretty close to the cost of the 4th gen when you're all done.

But since you aren't in a hurry, why not wait for the right one at the right price? I know Kevin Hall's 3rd gen CMC car went for less than the roughly $6k he wanted for it, and it was race ready!

Gotta be patient for those deals though - he had to get rid of it as he was leaving for SCarolina 2 days later.

I'm with Mitch

I know you don't want a 93/97 but it is the better/more competitive car. And think about this, you could run 2 NASA classes......

CMC
16" wheels
restrictor
ls1 brakes

CMC2
17 wheels
no restrictor, but maybe down on power.
could get away with ls1 brakes

Honestly? A 6 pack and gas to drag it to Ohio. And the 6 pack is because I'm just a nice guy and these are friends. I can have the car for free, I just have to go get it (440 miles away, but I was there yesterday and I get there from time to time. I have friends with SUV's and friends with trailers, so it will cose me fuel, and possibly another 6 pack or so).

Don't even think about AV8SS unless you're thinking about making it an AI car as well. And if you're thinking about making it an AI car, add 50% more to that $12k figure unless you're a super deal hunter then be prepared to devote the next 4 months of your life getting it ready for the season.

Honestly, if we had the CMC car counts up here, I would've built for CMC.

Another option, if you just want to run track days and not have the overhead, rent a car. There are quite a few guys doing that up here (although they're Mudstains). Mid Coast Performance has one, their building 1 or 2 CMC2 cars, and they're building a GTO to run AI. Robin Burnett has the black SN95 that Aaron Bambach is driving. I've thought about putting together a rental CMC f-body but I don't have the rig/space yet.

Thought about building a car for CMC-X? Seems like it would be a better decision becuase with the LS1, it would allow room to grow with the car for a cheaper price. For example, if you step up to AI all you would need is basic bolt ons to be competitive powerwise. For AIX heads and cam and your in the game. Only down side is the oil control in an LS1.

Howdy,

Kevin, I have $18k into a "free" car that I'm building for CP autox, and its still in piles around the house & I haven't yet bought anything for it with an electrical wire or fluid hose attached (i.e. no plumbing, electrical, or driver controls).

I don't regret doing that, as I've learned a _lot_ building the car this far and eventually will probably finish it. The next time I lose my mind, it'll go faster thanks to everything we learned on this car just so far.

Sounds to me like you need to decide what you want to do. Do you want to race? Then pick a class and look for a good to very good used car for sale. Only fix stuff that bothers you safety wise and run it for a year then decide where to go. As long as you pick your class reasonably well, you won't lose a ton of money if you don't wad the car up badly even if you decide its not for you.

On the other hand, do you want to have a fast car that's exactly what you want and will be satisfied impressing the squids at track days? Then build it. As you've already learned, you'll lose your shirt financially but it sounds like you have the luxury for that to not necessarily be your primary concern if you don't want it to be.

I'll say this though as a former racer... There are two categories of people. Racers and Everyone else. You can be totally happy in the "Everyone else" camp, as long as you don't need to know that you're fast.

Mark
(edit: autox counts as "racers" if you read the rulebook before you modify your car... :-)

That must've really hurt ....

After putting a fortune into my last project and getting rid of it as it was almost done (the headers and oil pan were both modified to clear and didn't, I got mad and sold the whole car.....dumb, I know).

I'm trying to stay away from 4th gens because I really don't like them very well (???). The front hub bearings, the extra electronics, abs to keep or remove, etc. This car would be a "gut it and wire it from scratch" deal. I was an Avoinics technician in a previous life and don't see that as being much of an issue.

I'm probably still better off to buy something that runs/is partially finished.

Candidate for Quote of the Year:

Our hobby is all about fun and what you like. I talked to an ORR buddy of mine recently who is sinking a pile o' dough into an Unlimited car. I questioned the investment(??) vs. buying a near-ready car like an old NASCAR or Busch car-- they are readily available and run our Unlimited ORR class very well.

He said " It would always be someone else's car."

End of our discussion right there.

Oddly Andy, this car had the same crate motor in it that yours did and it also had 6,000 miles on it. Seemed like an odd coincidence, but this one comes without the motor.....

For me half the fun is in the project....

But coming form a 3rd gen guy, don't you think a 82-92 Z28 or even a 89-92 RS would be a better start ??? the Berlinetta was such the red headed step child....

Couldn't you use the disc brake rear end in any 89-up car ?

Wouldn't the sway bars stay if you got a Z with the 36/21 or 24 combo ???

Maybe it's just me that hates the Berlinetta

I don't like them either, but once you strip them to the bare chassis, toss most of the running gear (sway bars, etc), etc, they are still just a standard shell. I'd have to swap the nose, or wait until I hit something with it, then change it, but the dash and all that makes it a Berlinetta, would be going in a dumpster anyway.

Ditto to EVERYTHING this man says.....

I think THIS project is a lose/lose situation.

Pros:
1. It is cheap

Cons:
1. Building a car from scratch is EXPENSIVE, so your ONLY "pro" is taken out
2. It is an older less desirable car making it hard to unload when you want out
3. Building a car to YOUR specs, and not a class of cars is making the selling of the car almost impossible
4. You can get a BETTER car.....CHEAPER and ready to run from day 1

I think you are boxing yourself in FAR TOO MUCH and hanging it all on the "I can get this car for cheap" hat. I think that is a mistake. As one who UNDERSTANDS the desire to build your own vs. buy someone elses car, I think you can make MUCH better choices in car and prep in order to save yourself a TON of grief when it comes to running it and eventually selling it......JMHO

Winter is the time of deals....get out there and look for a SMOKIN deal on a race car.....I see 'em EVERY day.....

I'd make it class legal for something, not sure what though. If I were to drag it home that is.

Y know I went over the the 4th gen camp from the 3rd gen camp in CMC last year. When the car was running right I beat my best lap time in the third gen at my favorite track at my first CMC race weekend there and just missed a podium finish once I got in the groove with it. It was a better built car because Alan Blaine built it totally from the ground up, especially with the great roll cage that he built me - saved my butt and saved the car from going to the boneyard after getting hit by two cars at approx 60mph.

However, after the crash it cost some major bucks to get it fixed - a 3rd gen would probably have not cost that much to fix due to the body parts being so much cheaper and easier to find to boot. Should the cost of crash repairs be a factor in the decision as to what gen to choose? I think so.

Further food for thought, some new guy showed up to race for the first time with CMC in Buttonwillow ran up front all weekend, including getting a win, in *gasp* a third gen carb car!!!!! A good driver in a well-prepared 3rd or 4th gen is competitive..., the carb motors will hopefully be getting a much deserved assist this year in the rules to even up the hp/tq discrepancy with the TPI 305s and the restricted LT1s.

buy a built 3rd gen for PENNIES ON THE DOLLAR....tear it apart....and make it "yours".....save lots of money....ESPECIALLY given your penchant for "giving up" on race type projects....

Not a slam....just trying to be the "voice of reason" that I ALWAYS ignore......

Understood. The voice of reason is a good thing.

I gave up on the last one partially because I decided that I didn't have the money, now I still don't have the money, but I have a lot more of it.....



How do you make a small fortune in racing?

Start with a large one.....

Howdy,

Kevin, just outta curiosity... Has anyone said anything new here?

Decide what you want to do and do it! If you can't decide, throw a dart at something and get started down a path anyway!

Mark

No, none of it's really news. But it's always good to get opinions (and I was hoping someone might say "I have a T5 and this and that and something else that you'd need and I'll sell it cheap"). Guess I didn't have any luck on that end.

My other thought is to buy a truck and start on a proper SM2 engine for the car that I have (and it's already running and complete). I don't think I really want to fully cage that car, though I'd do a roll bar for time trials type stuff, but I'm not against just putting a 402 LS2 or a blower on something that will still fit in SM2 (I have to double check the displacement rules for blown cars in SM2, I forget and it was never an issue for me, so I never looked). I've already ordered a spoiler from Alan for it....

I think I'm going to pass on this one, I had decided against it, but after seeing that it was straight enough, I started thinking that it might not be too bad.

if it was me, i'de take your current LS1 F-body and convert it to CMC-2. you could run well in CMC-2 or AI w/ that car. just go light and do what you can to make low HP/TQ. as for hubs, not an issue. i havent hurt one in 2 years or CMC racing. that 53 races, plus 28 qual sessions and 13 practice sessions. i started w/ old used hubs!!!!!

if i was starting to build a car today, it would be a CMC-2 car w/ out a doubt. in fact, i was very close to selling my current car to build one or converting my current car to CMC-2. i decided to wait and see how the rules gets massaged over the next couple of years.

That is odd Kevin. If I ever do "it" again, it will be an LS1 with a bad drivetrain.... or one that someone has so thoroughly screwed up that they are just sick of it. Man, those cars are out here everywhere.

2 schools of thought here from me.

Handy with tools vs. lots o' money.

Cheapo buys a cheap 3rd gen race car and fixes it up.
Or
Builds a 4th gen.

vs.

buys a primo 3rd/4th gen with a good pedigree.

jb

ps. Me, I was a cheap we know. I also traded trucks (everyday driver) and sold my garage queen (C5) to go racing.
No regrets.

You have your car!

Its cheaper to pay it off and cage it, than it is to build/buy one!

You have your car!

Its cheaper to pay it off and cage it, than it is to build/buy one!

and buy the tow vehicle and the trailer...

All I know is I'm sick of hearing it. It's time for action!

I told them I was going to pass on this one. I think it's going up on ebay soon instead.

The search continues.

Kevin, don't listen to these people that are telling you to cage your 4th gen... WE NEED MORE 3rd GENS ON THIS BOARD! BUY THE 3RD GEN!

Third gens! The 383 torque monster '91 Formula is launching in '07!

That would be the one sitting in Alan's shop, eh Julie? Yeah, I think I need to vote for a 3rd gen too. Passively looking for a home for my 406....

That would be the one Rob! Can't wait to drive that car... Hope you find a nice clean third gen buddy! They are out there if you are patient!

As far as budgets go, Julie's old car (this is your old car, right?) is starting to look like a steal!
http://camaromustangchallenge.com/cmcbb/vi...&highlight=

That is my old car, the ass kicker itself! That is a steal!

This thread could go on forever, but Kevin, for what it's worth:

For 30 years I've been an "if you didn't build it yourself, it ain't yours" guy. I bought my 68 Camaro from my dad when I was 15. He bought it new in 68. I've still got it, and it's been through 7 different drivetrains, 5 custom paint jobs, 5 complete suspension change-outs, etc, etc, as I survived my teen street race and NHRA days before being converted to corners. (incidental to this thread, the car currently has full GW suspension, an all aluminum 427 BBC, Richmond 5 speed and Auburn posied 12-bolt) Every bolt turned and part bought by me, for all those years.

Then my wife convinced me that I would never forgive myself if I put the old girl into the k-rail around turn 15 at Thunderhill. So a buddy and I went in halves on a track car with only 4 hours on it for pennies on the dollar. A fox-mustang (horrors) but it taught me the value of buying someone elses project. I have since sold my half of that car to my partner (couldn't handle owning even half a mustang) Wicked fast car, though. $4k custom cage, every high end part Griggs makes, 480hp 351, t56, builder (Bill Kaiser of Apex Motorsports) had over $50k into the car ... without labor costs considered. We bought it for $14K.

I bought a 4th gen A-sedan as a roller, after it won at nationals in '05 but then blew up. Even though I have been re-doing all sorts of hacked, half-assed nonsense, I paid significantly less for the car than the cage and fuel cell alone would have cost if I started with a free donor like you were considering. Is it mine? Hell yes. Building the 68 from scratch almost gave me less sense of ownership than undoing the crap a previous owner inflicted on this car.

Bottom line from my experience: if cost is a consideration, buy a finished car! If adrenaline on track is what you're after, buy a finished car. If you enjoy the build, buy a project with a bunch done already. Love your '02, and buy a good car to thrash at the track.

My wife calls my track car "expendable" ... which says it all if you really think about it.

You bought Hein-rocket's Phoenix ride? I'm just interested to know what was hacked up and half-assed

Sorry, should have put a "supposedly" in there. There's a story here ... and I've been trying to figure it out without stepping on anyone's toes. Maybe someone here can help. My car isn't Heinricy's, nor was it claimed to be when I bought it. Happy with what I bought, and what I paid for it, so no issues here for me, but...

When I bought the car, the story was it won at 2005 nationals. "2005 SCCA National Event Winner" stickers on the car. Car came from Indiana, I bought it from a guy in Southern California (who bought it from the Indiana SCCA racer) No log book. SoCal guy didn't give me a name. After I got it home and did some research out of curiosity, I realized the car was definitely not the 2005 A-sedan winner (though it was badged AS and was definitely within AS spec) No big deal, not why I bought the car. But I trust the guy I bought it from to have told me the truth, at least as he understood it. So I still mention 2005 nationals, not for any ego related reasons (I couldn't drive near that well, anyway, so doesn't really matter if the car was once that good or not) but hoping I'll stumble across someone who knows some of the history of the car.

From working on it for the past 9 months, it is evident the initial build was very well done. Probably by someone with an aircraft industry connection judging by the latches, materials, and connectors used in the car. A later owner did the hacking. More from a "go fast on a budget without worrying about looks" aspect than anything else. For example: nascar type steering column had a nicely done mounting plate fabbed and welded to the cage dashbar. At some point, someone was confronted about the lack of a stock column so the mount plate was jaggedly, unevenly cut with a sawzall so the plastic stock column cover could be duct taped over it to look stock. Another example: well done plate steel brackets were welded to the steering knuckles to mount 1LE brakes. Car took a hit to the right front at some point and the knuckle was broken. Rather than re-fab the brake bracket, the knuckle was welded back together. Ugly, but effective, I guess, as it is still in one piece. (off the car, I replaced it) Alan Blaine visibly shuddered when I described it to him.

White, LT1 car with an LS1 front end on it. #23 when I bought it in February. Roller, but set up for a gen1 carbureted small block. Sound familiar to anyone?

John - SCCA runs a series of National races in each division that are separate from the runoffs - that could be where its history is. I dug around a bit on the Great Lakes Division website and found no prior year archive, but you might contact the GLDiv national pointskeeper and ask for 2005 results: http://www.greatlakes-scca.org/node/54

I also checked the reserved # list for that division and #23 is currently an AS car - maybe your prior owner:
http://www.greatlakes-scca.org/files/Group%201.pdf

I plugged his name into Google and got a bunch of racing hits - Is this your car?:
http://www.exoticperformanceplus.com/quick...arOfTheWeek.php

Another hit shows him winning a CenDiv National at Gingerman in April 2005:
http://www.inr-scca.org/documents/rev%20gr...20results05.pdf

That's my car! Thanks Alan! It's got an LS1 nose now, and the sponsor stickers are gone (but the "ghosts" of many remain), but the graphics are still the same.

Thanks again!!!!