Ok, so my son just turned 18. He has a Honda Accord that he built up pretty stout. Engine swap, coilovers, suspension ect... I think it is something like 300 hp on spray. He really wants to get into an F-body now. He's found a pretty decent 99 Z28 with some mild mods and high miles. Two questions for you guys, do you think a mild F-body is to much for an 18 year old? And what do you guys think abou the price and mod list? I drove the car, and it runs pretty well, and it's very clean, just High miles. Here's the link to the ad: http://norfolk.craigslist.org/cto/1561183126.html

What do you guys think?

Sounds like he could splat himself pretty good with the car he has now if he was going to do that. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) You would probably know better on what his tendencies are. I would take him to autoxes and teach him car control at the very minimum no matter what you do. The main points to get across are the street is not for racin' and know how to control and respect power.

+1 you are so right on that one. That's where I struggle. He's already been AutoXing with me with the Honda several times, and if it were not for his mother he would run every race with me. He has car control, and can drive the piss out of a go kart. But 300Hp on Spray and 300HP on demand are two different beasts. Plus there's the rear wheel drive issue and the car in question has 3.73's with a 6 speed.

PS. Don't spread the word. but he beat me at the last AutoX via the PAX I placed him in... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/2thumbs.gif) kudos to you for bringin' the young'un up right! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/gr_driving3.gif)

If he were my son (and in fewer years than I want to admit, he probably WILL be!), I'd probably go ahead. For a few reasons:

1) As Julie said, you'd probably know it if he had any bad tendencies. You are correct that 300 on tap is different, but if he behaves himself with 300 on spray, then he should do it most of the time, too.

2) With an F-body, I'm not sure that the temptation will be there to monkey around as much. What I mean is that, in my observations, the "300hp Accord" crowd is MUCH more likely to be doing stuff on the street that they shouldn't than is the "300hp Camaro" crowd.

3) Since he autoxes, I'd definitely teach him how to oversteer the car. Get him so used to it that when it happens on the street, it's second nature to catch it. Other than that, I actually think that RWD is MUCH safer than FWD.

I'm only 18 and have never driven anything but RWD and 4WD vehicales. I learned how to drive in my dad's RWD Dodge Dakato and was even autocrossing that with my temps. I used my time autocrossing my dad's truck to convince my mom that I could handle a V8 RWD vehicle. Then I bought my 87 IROC shortly after turning 16. Yeah, not a whole lot of horsepower, but as we all know, those cars make a good bit of torque even with a little 305. I probably could have gotten a 350 but I was inpatient and the price was pretty good. I've been autocrossing for roughly the last three years and haven't gotten into much trouble on the street. In my opinion, autocrossing takes away the fun of tearing it up on the streets. I mean, when you're on the streets you have to worry about cops, other pedestrians, and curbs. On an autocross course you don't have to worry about any of that and can run all out. This is why I vote letting him get it even though I've obviously never meet him. As long as he understands his limits and the limits of the car I would think he would be ok, but like others have said, you know your kid better then us.

Out of curiosity, is he paying for it on his own, or will you be buying it for him? I'm just wondering becuase if he uses his own money he will most likely be more afraid to mess up the car by screwing around on the street... at least that's what it was like for me.

This post has been edited by Racing Geek: Jan 26 2010, 05:52 AM

Thanks for the comments guys. Yeah, he's buying it himself with the sale of his Honda and what he earns working for his Grandad this summer. Grandad owns a Honda dealership and he works in the service area in the summers. Grandad is fronting the money on a note for him for his 18th, but he is responsible for insurance and paying the note back.

Sounds like he would be able to handle it, once getting used to a RWD vehicle's handling characteristics. If it is also going to be a street car, I'd take a close look at the insurance difference also. I'd bet the Honda is way cheaper that a '99 V8 Camaro for an 18 year old. Just something else to think about.

This post has been edited by Zeppelin: Jan 26 2010, 10:42 AM

Whenever it rains around here, there are numerous posts on local forums from 16-25 year olds that have not given 300+ on demand, RWD and slick streets enough respect.

In your case, going from a light-weight FWD to a heavy RWD and in your neck of the woods would cause me some real concern as well, if for no other reason than that.

Find a wet skid pad let him learn what you can and can't get away with.

I'm going to be the odd man out here. I wouldn't have him in a 300 horse Honda, let alone a Z-28 at 18. No matter how well he drives, or how conscientious he is, once in a while he's going to show his butt. Probably with a buddy or 2 in the car, maybe in the rain, maybe a jerk in another car will provoke him. Heck, I'm 54 years old, and I still do that occasionally. I'd let him autocross your Firebird, and let him drive a '98 LaSabre to school. Both of my boys autocrossed, and both were pretty good, but there was no way I would put them in a performance car as a daily driver. Just my .02

Thanks for the objective views Bill, Mitch.

I'm really on the fence with this one. He's had his run in's with Tickets and such, but his record is still clean. Some how I feel he's always out to "prove something" with the Honda, because it's a Honda. It's very fast even with out the NO2, that I keep taking out of the car. He had a V8 Jeep for a while, so he's familiar with the RWD issues. He's going to buy the car himself and pay the insurance, and he knows one slip up the car's sold even if he loses money on it. He lives in a small town, he can't even forget to put his blinker on without someone calling his mom on him. Personally, I'd like to get him out of the Honda and into something bigger.

I have some influence in what he gets, but he lives with his mom and I only have the power of suggestion when it boils down to it.

Some of us had fast cars as kids and we're still here. Then again, most of us knew somebody who had a fast car as a kid and wrecked it or got hurt in it. Thinking back to my high school days, the ones that got hurt or wrecked cars were pretty wreckless anyway. So if here is reasonable and level headed kid, I say let him get it.

The "modern" muscle cars are alot safer than the 60's and 70's cars, they have excellent brakes, crumple zones, air bags, antilock brakes etc. With most of the the older muscle cars, the brakes were marginal at best, they were unstable at speed, handling was generally poor by todays standards and they had little in the way of safety equipment. A '99 Z28 is a good all around car, good brakes, handling and power. It's not like it's just a straight line rocket.

Mike, that's part of what would concern me. That Z is a good handler. But I also know how fast one will switch ends with that solid rear axle. (as does every other member of this board!). I wouldn't argue that they're good safe cars, but I still think it's too much temptation for an 18 year old. We're talking about a 150mph top end, low 13 second quarter mile car. It's just my opinion, and I have no say in what this young man drives. Tell him to buy a Formula V to autocross/rr and a POS for a daily driver.

I understand your point of view, I don't fully agree with it, but I understand it. At 16 and a first car, I would say no. At 18, for a kid who has already shown they can drive and handle a car with a respectable amount of power, I'd say it's a judgement call based on the individual kid.

Safety is ultimately in the hands of the driver. Just like firearms, no amount of gizmos and mechanisms can overcome the potential for misuse. I would argure that, for any machine in good working order, there are no unsafe machines, just unsafe people. Even the old muscle cars were safe if you knew what you were doing.

Personally, I'd rather see a kid in a Camaro that he has some pride in it than be stuck in some econo $h!t box that he doesn't want. The potential for stupidity regarding something he doesn't give a crap about is probably higher than something he wants to take good care of. I've never bought into the idea that an un-appealing, under powered, wrong wheel drive car is any safer than a Camaro or a Corvette. Just because it's more difficult to go fast, doesn't mean it will happen less. Nor do I believe a big SUV or luxo boat is any safer. The extra tonnage, to me, means wrecks and rollovers due to the inablitly to stop or turn are more likely. A wreck avoided is a wreck survived.

There are certainly 18 yr old kids that can handle a car like that and some that can't. It sounds to me like the kid in question is one that probably could handle it.

Since I was probably the absolute "worst case", I'll share the outline of my younger days with an F-body.

I had an '89 Formula when I was 21. I put 100k miles on that car. At least 10-20k of them were well over 100 mph (and many were running WFO in the middle of the night up and down I-81). I racked up the majority of my 29 tickets in that car, never wrecked it, broke 11 700R4 transmissions (and swapped in a T5), a torque converter or two (as well as a few front pump bushings between broken transmissions), 1 rear axle, 12 (or so) front factory sway bar mounts (I bought them 4 at a time and just swapped them out) and who knows what else. I used to keep 6 brake rotors and spare bearings on hand. I'd warp rotors and melt the bearings down on a monthly basis. I'd turn them, swap them and rotate through my stock. I wasn't autocrossing back then and I learned the hard way about lifting in a slide when I spun it on a back road (I did put both feet in and only scratched the bumper cover which I easily touched up). I'm not saying everyone will be like me during my younger years, but I know that car ran 142 mph on flat ground...because I checked (and often). I had to put a switch on the electronic speedo wires to bypass the 112 mph limiter (I had put VR rated tires on it). I drove that thing in the snow on "junkyard" Goodyear Gatorbacks (typically 30% tread left) without a limited slip (I am a pretty good snow driver and I give that car credit for most of it).

I don't condone such behavior (but it was good to be young and invincible once upon a time). I was probably the "worst case" V8/RWD driving "kid", but I can speak from experience. On the other hand, I never wrecked that car and it was sold off with a roll cage (fuel cell, #8an braided lines, return regulator, Comp 100EFI pump, filter, etc) mostly installed in it (sold on ebay the week of 9-11 and I got the minimum bid of $500 on it and lost a ton of money).

I'm not saying he'll be like me, but odds are better than not that he'll fall somewhere between "us now" and "me then". And, he'll have 100+ more HP than I did...

I'm not saying that I was as bad as Trackbird, but not to far off. I grew up in the country at a time when Dukes of Hazzard were king of the TV. I had a 67 Camaro that was set up like an early SSCA Trans Am car. Not cool for 1983 in the day of big and littles but that car would carve the back roads. It was not uncommon for me to just be cruising along some back country road and look down and the speed was past 100! This is a crowned non marked country road! I knew every corner by the camber change and every possible spot for oncoming traffic. That was me, and I'm sad to say I think it's hereditary. Although he's calmed down from when he was 16, I still think there is some tendencies, and the high HP honda is a recipe for disaster in my opinion. It just invites ridicule and challanges from others who think he's a poser. Hence the No2 bottle that keeps finding it's way back in the car. Perhaps with the Camaro he may invoke a little more "respect" and not have the urge to prove something.

He goes to school in a relativly high end school zone. Most of the kids have new cars at 16, some drive BMW's others new 350Z's, pretty much what ever they want.

I have had him out to the AutoX's and he's done quite well, he's also an ace in the go karts. Solid axle rear wheel drive, and yeah I know it's not the same.

Thanks for all the input, good discussions I think, Keep it coming.

Yea, I knew every bump and pebble on all of the super twisty backroads in my home town. I used to love to go out in the middle of nowhere and "unwind" a fun backroad. That (sadly) was many years ago, and I have traded youthful enthusiasm for age and wisdom (I hope). But I know what (some) kids do in these cars...I was one of them (long ago, in a galaxy far, far away).

I'm not saying he won't be ok in that car, but it might require a rather firm "talking to" (and some autocross seat time in it).

I bought my V6 Camaro when I was 16 and autocrossed for a couple years right out of the chute. Turned 18 and bought my SS and autocrossed and ran road course events for 3 years. So I had 5 years of Fbody normal driving and race experience when I pulled off this fantastic move...

All that experience learning car control in an fbody taught me to modulate the gas when you start getting out of shape in the back. You let off and counter steer and only at the last minute when you are at opposite lock and can feel shes not going to hold ou stab the clutch and go spinning.

So this caused me to wreck the SS in a rain storm on a STRAIGHT piece of road in 4 gear just going 45 mph trying to get home from work. The back end started to hydroplane and I felt it begin to step out and my instinct taught me to just let off the gas. Well letting off the gas in a 6-speed means engine braking and when you are hydroplaning already there is no chance of you getting the back wheels stuck back to the road. By the time I jabbed the clutch in it was too late and I had the slowest, and lamest wreck ever. 40 ish mph in a unibody still totalled it though. I had time to look around and cuss while I was sliding backwards down the hill.

If you get your son one show him this picture and tell him in the rain if the back starts to let loose to STAB THE CLUTCH through the floor to China.

I preach this crap to everyone with a RWD car now. If I can save just one F-body I hope God will let me into heaven for killing SS #4224.

(IMG:http://ghettolanparty.org/gallery/gallery-storage/SSWreck/n1062368201_30264589_1975.jpg)

This post has been edited by SuperCricket: Jan 26 2010, 09:56 PM

I remember when Supercricket did that. And it still sucks...

Wow ... you guys were animals when you were young.

I rode a bicycle and pretty much studied in the library or in my Sunday School classroom.