Ok, so my son just turned 18. He has a Honda Accord that he built up pretty stout. Engine swap, coilovers, suspension ect... I think it is something like 300 hp on spray. He really wants to get into an F-body now. He's found a pretty decent 99 Z28 with some mild mods and high miles. Two questions for you guys, do you think a mild F-body is to much for an 18 year old? And what do you guys think abou the price and mod list? I drove the car, and it runs pretty well, and it's very clean, just High miles. Here's the link to the ad: http://norfolk.craigslist.org/cto/1561183126.html

What do you guys think?

Sounds like he could splat himself pretty good with the car he has now if he was going to do that. You would probably know better on what his tendencies are. I would take him to autoxes and teach him car control at the very minimum no matter what you do. The main points to get across are the street is not for racin' and know how to control and respect power.

+1 you are so right on that one. That's where I struggle. He's already been AutoXing with me with the Honda several times, and if it were not for his mother he would run every race with me. He has car control, and can drive the piss out of a go kart. But 300Hp on Spray and 300HP on demand are two different beasts. Plus there's the rear wheel drive issue and the car in question has 3.73's with a 6 speed.

PS. Don't spread the word. but he beat me at the last AutoX via the PAX I placed him in...

kudos to you for bringin' the young'un up right!

If he were my son (and in fewer years than I want to admit, he probably WILL be!), I'd probably go ahead. For a few reasons:

1) As Julie said, you'd probably know it if he had any bad tendencies. You are correct that 300 on tap is different, but if he behaves himself with 300 on spray, then he should do it most of the time, too.

2) With an F-body, I'm not sure that the temptation will be there to monkey around as much. What I mean is that, in my observations, the "300hp Accord" crowd is MUCH more likely to be doing stuff on the street that they shouldn't than is the "300hp Camaro" crowd.

3) Since he autoxes, I'd definitely teach him how to oversteer the car. Get him so used to it that when it happens on the street, it's second nature to catch it. Other than that, I actually think that RWD is MUCH safer than FWD.

I'm only 18 and have never driven anything but RWD and 4WD vehicales. I learned how to drive in my dad's RWD Dodge Dakato and was even autocrossing that with my temps. I used my time autocrossing my dad's truck to convince my mom that I could handle a V8 RWD vehicle. Then I bought my 87 IROC shortly after turning 16. Yeah, not a whole lot of horsepower, but as we all know, those cars make a good bit of torque even with a little 305. I probably could have gotten a 350 but I was inpatient and the price was pretty good. I've been autocrossing for roughly the last three years and haven't gotten into much trouble on the street. In my opinion, autocrossing takes away the fun of tearing it up on the streets. I mean, when you're on the streets you have to worry about cops, other pedestrians, and curbs. On an autocross course you don't have to worry about any of that and can run all out. This is why I vote letting him get it even though I've obviously never meet him. As long as he understands his limits and the limits of the car I would think he would be ok, but like others have said, you know your kid better then us.

Out of curiosity, is he paying for it on his own, or will you be buying it for him? I'm just wondering becuase if he uses his own money he will most likely be more afraid to mess up the car by screwing around on the street... at least that's what it was like for me.

Thanks for the comments guys. Yeah, he's buying it himself with the sale of his Honda and what he earns working for his Grandad this summer. Grandad owns a Honda dealership and he works in the service area in the summers. Grandad is fronting the money on a note for him for his 18th, but he is responsible for insurance and paying the note back.

Sounds like he would be able to handle it, once getting used to a RWD vehicle's handling characteristics. If it is also going to be a street car, I'd take a close look at the insurance difference also. I'd bet the Honda is way cheaper that a '99 V8 Camaro for an 18 year old. Just something else to think about.

Whenever it rains around here, there are numerous posts on local forums from 16-25 year olds that have not given 300+ on demand, RWD and slick streets enough respect.

In your case, going from a light-weight FWD to a heavy RWD and in your neck of the woods would cause me some real concern as well, if for no other reason than that.

Find a wet skid pad let him learn what you can and can't get away with.

I'm going to be the odd man out here. I wouldn't have him in a 300 horse Honda, let alone a Z-28 at 18. No matter how well he drives, or how conscientious he is, once in a while he's going to show his butt. Probably with a buddy or 2 in the car, maybe in the rain, maybe a jerk in another car will provoke him. Heck, I'm 54 years old, and I still do that occasionally. I'd let him autocross your Firebird, and let him drive a '98 LaSabre to school. Both of my boys autocrossed, and both were pretty good, but there was no way I would put them in a performance car as a daily driver. Just my .02

Thanks for the objective views Bill, Mitch.

I'm really on the fence with this one. He's had his run in's with Tickets and such, but his record is still clean. Some how I feel he's always out to "prove something" with the Honda, because it's a Honda. It's very fast even with out the NO2, that I keep taking out of the car. He had a V8 Jeep for a while, so he's familiar with the RWD issues. He's going to buy the car himself and pay the insurance, and he knows one slip up the car's sold even if he loses money on it. He lives in a small town, he can't even forget to put his blinker on without someone calling his mom on him. Personally, I'd like to get him out of the Honda and into something bigger.

I have some influence in what he gets, but he lives with his mom and I only have the power of suggestion when it boils down to it.

Some of us had fast cars as kids and we're still here. Then again, most of us knew somebody who had a fast car as a kid and wrecked it or got hurt in it. Thinking back to my high school days, the ones that got hurt or wrecked cars were pretty wreckless anyway. So if here is reasonable and level headed kid, I say let him get it.

The "modern" muscle cars are alot safer than the 60's and 70's cars, they have excellent brakes, crumple zones, air bags, antilock brakes etc. With most of the the older muscle cars, the brakes were marginal at best, they were unstable at speed, handling was generally poor by todays standards and they had little in the way of safety equipment. A '99 Z28 is a good all around car, good brakes, handling and power. It's not like it's just a straight line rocket.

Mike, that's part of what would concern me. That Z is a good handler. But I also know how fast one will switch ends with that solid rear axle. (as does every other member of this board!). I wouldn't argue that they're good safe cars, but I still think it's too much temptation for an 18 year old. We're talking about a 150mph top end, low 13 second quarter mile car. It's just my opinion, and I have no say in what this young man drives. Tell him to buy a Formula V to autocross/rr and a POS for a daily driver.

I understand your point of view, I don't fully agree with it, but I understand it. At 16 and a first car, I would say no. At 18, for a kid who has already shown they can drive and handle a car with a respectable amount of power, I'd say it's a judgement call based on the individual kid.

Safety is ultimately in the hands of the driver. Just like firearms, no amount of gizmos and mechanisms can overcome the potential for misuse. I would argure that, for any machine in good working order, there are no unsafe machines, just unsafe people. Even the old muscle cars were safe if you knew what you were doing.

Personally, I'd rather see a kid in a Camaro that he has some pride in it than be stuck in some econo $h!t box that he doesn't want. The potential for stupidity regarding something he doesn't give a crap about is probably higher than something he wants to take good care of. I've never bought into the idea that an un-appealing, under powered, wrong wheel drive car is any safer than a Camaro or a Corvette. Just because it's more difficult to go fast, doesn't mean it will happen less. Nor do I believe a big SUV or luxo boat is any safer. The extra tonnage, to me, means wrecks and rollovers due to the inablitly to stop or turn are more likely. A wreck avoided is a wreck survived.

There are certainly 18 yr old kids that can handle a car like that and some that can't. It sounds to me like the kid in question is one that probably could handle it.

Since I was probably the absolute "worst case", I'll share the outline of my younger days with an F-body.

I had an '89 Formula when I was 21. I put 100k miles on that car. At least 10-20k of them were well over 100 mph (and many were running WFO in the middle of the night up and down I-81). I racked up the majority of my 29 tickets in that car, never wrecked it, broke 11 700R4 transmissions (and swapped in a T5), a torque converter or two (as well as a few front pump bushings between broken transmissions), 1 rear axle, 12 (or so) front factory sway bar mounts (I bought them 4 at a time and just swapped them out) and who knows what else. I used to keep 6 brake rotors and spare bearings on hand. I'd warp rotors and melt the bearings down on a monthly basis. I'd turn them, swap them and rotate through my stock. I wasn't autocrossing back then and I learned the hard way about lifting in a slide when I spun it on a back road (I did put both feet in and only scratched the bumper cover which I easily touched up). I'm not saying everyone will be like me during my younger years, but I know that car ran 142 mph on flat ground...because I checked (and often). I had to put a switch on the electronic speedo wires to bypass the 112 mph limiter (I had put VR rated tires on it). I drove that thing in the snow on "junkyard" Goodyear Gatorbacks (typically 30% tread left) without a limited slip (I am a pretty good snow driver and I give that car credit for most of it).

I don't condone such behavior (but it was good to be young and invincible once upon a time). I was probably the "worst case" V8/RWD driving "kid", but I can speak from experience. On the other hand, I never wrecked that car and it was sold off with a roll cage (fuel cell, #8an braided lines, return regulator, Comp 100EFI pump, filter, etc) mostly installed in it (sold on ebay the week of 9-11 and I got the minimum bid of $500 on it and lost a ton of money).

I'm not saying he'll be like me, but odds are better than not that he'll fall somewhere between "us now" and "me then". And, he'll have 100+ more HP than I did...

I'm not saying that I was as bad as Trackbird, but not to far off. I grew up in the country at a time when Dukes of Hazzard were king of the TV. I had a 67 Camaro that was set up like an early SSCA Trans Am car. Not cool for 1983 in the day of big and littles but that car would carve the back roads. It was not uncommon for me to just be cruising along some back country road and look down and the speed was past 100! This is a crowned non marked country road! I knew every corner by the camber change and every possible spot for oncoming traffic. That was me, and I'm sad to say I think it's hereditary. Although he's calmed down from when he was 16, I still think there is some tendencies, and the high HP honda is a recipe for disaster in my opinion. It just invites ridicule and challanges from others who think he's a poser. Hence the No2 bottle that keeps finding it's way back in the car. Perhaps with the Camaro he may invoke a little more "respect" and not have the urge to prove something.

He goes to school in a relativly high end school zone. Most of the kids have new cars at 16, some drive BMW's others new 350Z's, pretty much what ever they want.

I have had him out to the AutoX's and he's done quite well, he's also an ace in the go karts. Solid axle rear wheel drive, and yeah I know it's not the same.

Thanks for all the input, good discussions I think, Keep it coming.

Yea, I knew every bump and pebble on all of the super twisty backroads in my home town. I used to love to go out in the middle of nowhere and "unwind" a fun backroad. That (sadly) was many years ago, and I have traded youthful enthusiasm for age and wisdom (I hope). But I know what (some) kids do in these cars...I was one of them (long ago, in a galaxy far, far away).

I'm not saying he won't be ok in that car, but it might require a rather firm "talking to" (and some autocross seat time in it).

I bought my V6 Camaro when I was 16 and autocrossed for a couple years right out of the chute. Turned 18 and bought my SS and autocrossed and ran road course events for 3 years. So I had 5 years of Fbody normal driving and race experience when I pulled off this fantastic move...

All that experience learning car control in an fbody taught me to modulate the gas when you start getting out of shape in the back. You let off and counter steer and only at the last minute when you are at opposite lock and can feel shes not going to hold ou stab the clutch and go spinning.

So this caused me to wreck the SS in a rain storm on a STRAIGHT piece of road in 4 gear just going 45 mph trying to get home from work. The back end started to hydroplane and I felt it begin to step out and my instinct taught me to just let off the gas. Well letting off the gas in a 6-speed means engine braking and when you are hydroplaning already there is no chance of you getting the back wheels stuck back to the road. By the time I jabbed the clutch in it was too late and I had the slowest, and lamest wreck ever. 40 ish mph in a unibody still totalled it though. I had time to look around and cuss while I was sliding backwards down the hill.

If you get your son one show him this picture and tell him in the rain if the back starts to let loose to STAB THE CLUTCH through the floor to China.

I preach this crap to everyone with a RWD car now. If I can save just one F-body I hope God will let me into heaven for killing SS #4224.

I remember when Supercricket did that. And it still sucks...

Wow ... you guys were animals when you were young.

I rode a bicycle and pretty much studied in the library or in my Sunday School classroom.

I was thinking about this thread a little on the way home from work, and does it ever make me feel OLD. It doesn't seem that long ago that I was 18 and looking for my first Camaro. Now I have kids and they will be looking for cars in a few years. I've even caught myself considering buying cars that I would never have considered as a teen or twenty something. It must be some kind of a sleeper virus that's activated when you turn 40.

...must fight...don't buy old people cars...buy another Camaro...minivans eat your soul...two door is enough...there is no such thing as too much power...

Anyway, just wanted to thank you guys for reminding me how much I really do like cool cars. Even if I'm not 18 anymore.

I don't know whether or not your son has the ability/self control to handle the car as a DD. But I'd look into insurance first. In NJ an 18yr old male in a V8 Camaro would be prohibitively expensive to insure, especially full coverage. That alone might be enough to end the conversation or at least seriously reconsider.

Chris

My parents made me a deal that the car would be insured under their name as long as my grades stay up and I don't get any tickets. Once grades dropped or I got a ticket, they said I would have to pay the bill and if I couldn't the car would be sold. The following quarter I got a 3.9 GPA as apposed to my previous 3.4 GPA's so it worked in more way then one. Just another thing to consider.

I think that it was mentioned that the 18yo will be paying insurance. If he can afford it...

Since it seems to ne nostalgia time, allow me to reminisce. It ws 1992, and I got my license at 15 (yeah, driving age was 15 and drinking age was 18 - I love Louisiana!). Drove an 89 Grand Am for 4 months, until I threw a rod through the block.

Parents bought me a 1966 Mustang with the I6 for $4000. That engine let go after 3 months, and we put in a 225hp 289. Before we sold it 3 years later, I had racked up 4 speeding tickets and 1 failure to maintain control. I raced friends on the street and did burnouts constantly.

Sold the Mustang and got a 95 Camaro (with the 3400 V6). Took that car to Univ of Texas. Racked up another 3 speeding tickets in TX, 2 in Alabama, 1 in FL, 2 in MS and another 2 in LA. Luckily, no one talked to each other, and I always kept my license. I'd be on Hwy 2222 just west of Austin, going 117mph, with 4 people in the car, hitting the e-brake to spin it on a deserted 7-lane hwy.

Traded that for a 2000 Firebird Convertible with the 3800 V6. Caught the autox bug and had to trade it in after only 2 years. Only got 2 speeding tickets in this one.

Bought the 2000 Trans Am WS-6 that I still have as a racecar. Never got a ticket. Got to top speed once, and that was it. Raced it only on autox days.

Bought a 2006 Saturn Ion when I stripped the Trans Am of it's interior. Sped the crap out of that little thing. Never got caught, but I was always winding it up.

Now I have the G8GT. Rarely speed in it. Spin the tires every now and then, but not often.

My point is this - the more powerful and performance-oriented the car, the less I abuse that power. When I had that little Saturn, I felt like I had to redline the thing to get any decent speed. But, just knowing that I can blow most cars away with my G8 makes me not worry about it.

I'm still the fly in the ointment. I wouldn't give a shit if he was a choir boy. He wouldn't be in a muscle car. Most of the guys that had muscle cars when I was in HS had parents that did not know cars. My dad was a Chevy parts manager and he did. He gave me permission to build a race car, but would not even consider letting me buy a performance car while I was under his roof. We all know cars, and listen to the confessions we're making. Some of us are probably damn lucky to be here, I know I am. I ordered new a '73 Vega GT, (I still have it), and that's what got me autocrossing. I ran the crap out of that car, and figured if I couldn't out accelerate my friends I could out handle them. So I went the springs, sway bars, shocks, tires route. But when I think of the way I drove, I cringe. He will run that car damn hard, and we all know it. I have very strong feelings on this subject, and since you asked, I answered.

I don't love the idea either, hence my post. I know what I did in these cars back when these cars were slower...

Holy flashback, Batman ... I too was the proud owner of a Vega GT, only mine was a 72 model. It was a head gasket eating machine!
Your signature now makes much more sense.

Had an opportunity to trade it in on a 76 Cosworth Vega. It was one ugly orange car with orange hounds tooth interior. Another opportunity missed

Since I know both Rpoz-29 and Mitchntx, I think you both would get along very well! Just my .02 But serriously, thanks for all the comments guys. I'm going to try and put a stop to the madness and put him back in the POS stock civic 4 dr for at least another year... If I can... I know how I was at 18.

If he's got a nitrous kit on a honda, it's obviously in his blood. There's no stopping it. You might as well try to teach him while you still can.

Since we are swapping stories -

My first car was a 1996 Camaro V6 automatic. I street raced it, pegged the limiter as often as possible while trying to see what the top speed was on the interstate, back road shenanigans (including some off road excursions), burnouts, spins, etc. Went through one transmission a year (I liked to manual shift it) and got rid of it when I was 22 for my '01 due to the fact that the 1996 was falling apart.

As soon as I opened up the '01 for the first time, I realized it was a whole different can of worms and picked up autocrossing to learn some car control. Now that I've been doing that for a few years, I'm mellow on the street and save my aggression for the parking lots. In addition, I agree with 00 Trans Ams comments - after swapping the LS3 in last winter, I have no desire to drive that aggressively on the street.

At the end of the day, he is going to be able to get into trouble with just about anything - Accord or Camaro. Its just going to come down with if you think he is mature enough to handle the Camaro.

As for the FWD v. RWD being safer, I've always felt safer and more comfortable with RWD cars. I'm sure that is mostly due to fact that I have never owned or extensively driven a FWD car, but FWDs always feel "backwards" to me.

A key point is how well you know your son. There's just as much potential for irresponsibility in many grown adults as there are in many teens. The bulk of DUI offenders and road ragers are adults. Only you can determine if your son has the maturity to act responsibly in a car whether it's a muscle car, a modded Honda, or a minivan.

Both my sons were taught to drive all of our cars from our Dakota to my track prepped Z-28. We made sure they understood the differences in the power and handling of various cars. We made sure that neither of our sons saw our performance cars as "forbidden fruit". Both boys accompanied me to autox and HPDE events for several years before being old enough to get a driver's license. Both learned about the physics and consequences of speed by spectating at those events.

My oldest son received my '98 Neon ACR as his first car. My younger son son started with a'93 Integra (which we upgraded both for power and handling). Neither boy has ever had an accident and neither have any tickets for speeding or careless driving. They are now 24 and 22 respectively. My point is that what matters most are the attitudes and mind set of the driver, not the relative power of the car. We've had friends whose kids have wrecked commuter cars and minivans through carelessness and and misplaced bravado. The peroformance that mattered was the driver's, not the car.

Sounds like your son has a serious interest in performance cars and has already had some introduction to performance driving. Seems to me it's a matter of how much you know about your son and his attitudes. You are the best one to assess his maturity and judgment. If you haven't already done so, sit down and discuss your concerns with him.

as a side note, both my sons have told me that my Camaro is evil in the wet compared to their FWD cars. My own experience coincides with theirs. I would much rather commute in snow in a Civic than in my Z-28.

As the saga unfolds, They (mom and grandpa) are going to let him get the Z-28 despite my lobby. I only have the power of suggestion as he lives with his mom and Grandpa has all the money (he owns outright one of the biggest Honda stores on the East Coast). One concession I was able to pull was that there will be a GPS monitor installed in the car that will tell me/her where he's been, and how fast the car was moving. We will get Text messages of violations and can log on the web at any time and look at the history. Think of it as a big brother governer. The Honda was a Death Trap, and I"m actually glad to get him out of it. Proud of him for building it all by himself, but never felt right him driving it as a DD. Thanks again for all the Insight.

I'm 19. drove a 93 z28 as a first car for a month before i got hit (i was stopped at a light sitting still) and it was totaled. then i got my 00' trans am. i've raced a few people and done some stupid things, but never anything life threatening or seriously idiotic. i've calmed down a LOT in the short time i've had it. never gotten a ticket in it either.

i feel that i'm a lot more responsible than most people my age, but i think it has a lot to do with the fact that i payed for it myself and have to pay for insurance. i've also modded it myself and know exactly what it can do. i have nothing to prove to the kids who get m3's, is-f's, and sti's as first cars in my town and pay nothing for them. they have no respect for their cars and what they are. i mod/maintain my car myself and have pride in it, so i'm not going to do anything that may result in serious damage to it or loss of my license.

i really don't think most people my age should have fast cars, but there are some that can handle it.

He's 18 Miles.

Treat him like a kid and he'll most likely act like one.

You know Mitch, that's probably the most intellegent thing that's been said in this whole thread.

Yes it is. It's not me that treats him like a kid, it's his mom. I thought all the comments in this post had merit and intellect compared to what I got over at LS1.com

Kevin, Any chance you have any Frrax stickers? I need a new one or two.

The fact is that any car is dangerous in irresponsible hands. Yes, an LS1 F-body is more .44 Magnum than I don't know... a Miata? But the fact is that .22 caliber Miata can still kill and whichever weapon is being used there is no substitute for knowing how to control it and be responsible for it.

We know that an F-body is much faster, and with stock shocks, etc can be sketchy to drive at the limit. So can any other car with lousy shocks.

You've had him in go-karts and doing some autocrossing. Is he a maniac? Does he want to drift everywhere? Sounds like he does not, which would make me think he's a more mature 18 than punk kid 18. Ultimately none of us know him, you do. Of course he's your kid so you are probably biased--so pretend he's not your kid but your neighbor's and see what you think then.

I can't say I still don't do things that I shouldn't from time to time.... In fact now I'm probably more aggressive on the road then I was when I was younger because I'm much more confident in my abilities--and I was never insane as a kid.

As the say goes YMMV. A young 30 could be way more trouble than an 18 year old with a functioning brain and some car control skills and knowledge of what happens at the edge.

I still have a few... Which reminds me, someone else needed a couple and I forgot about it. Hmm... Better dig that up too (it's been a while on that one). Let me check my inventory and get back to you (or send me a PM so I don't forget).

I've thought this through a couple of times. The only real comparison I have is with firearms. Both Matthew and Patrick had shot every gun I owned by the time they were 12 or 13. I don't have anything really special, (except maybe my great-grandfather's LC Smith.), but they fired everything from a .22 Browning Buckmark, a .30 M-1, to a .50 Hawken. A friend of mine questioned my intelligence regarding my decision, and I responded that I felt like I had taken the "mystery" away from the guns. I talked to them in a "man to man" manner outlining my expectations, and the consequences of not following them. There would be no poking around while I was at work, the guns weren't hidden, and the boys knew what they were capable of. No amount of peer pressure would convince them to take them out of the cabinet, (I didn't have a safe then), unless I was home. The same principal could be applied to your son and the Camaro. Outline your expectations, and ask him not to dissapoint you, and from what you've said, he should be fine. Let him read this post. If nothing else, it shows a genuine concern for his well-being from a bunch of folks that don't even know him. And ask him not to dissapoint us either.