I spent about 30 minutes on the phone with Carlos at goroadracing.com. He seemed very knowledgeable about CMC rules being that he races CMC himself. He's only a couple of hours away from me, so I'd probably use him.

There's some illegal stuff in his project galleries, too.

There's a good bit of cage tech in this thread: http://corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27556 it's long, read the whole thing.

I personally think you just need to move to the east coast. Get away from that nasty weather and mean people (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I'd love to be able to drop my car off at your shop for a few days.

Most of the problems I see in other shops work are detail errors - for whatever reason they just get used to doing it that way. If a you go in with a written list, with example pictures and/or diagrams that address those details, you should be able to get a good product. You can tell early in the build if they just tossed your instructions or are going to follow them. I have always appreciated an informed customer. If they want something specific that isn't a safety negative, I'll go with it, or work out an acceptable option if it is.

I had Carlos do my cage. He is more than willing to look at pictures and discuss cage design with you. He understands that you're paying for this and it is your car. So he'll listen, but you have to have good reasons to do things he might not have thought to do. His work is top notch and would never think twice to send anyone his way. Many of the NASA MA racers have been to him. You'll see his stickers on many of the cars in the paddock at VIR.

I think holding onto your car and slowly building it to CMC would be the best way to go. Pull the motor and package it up well. Keep it in the corner and you can end up getting what you want out of it. Someone will end up blowing a motor over on LS1tech.com and be on the hunt for something. Take your time and do it one little project at a time. By the time it's a finished and legal CMC car you've put some serious seat time in and really know the car.

I was hoping you would take a look at it Alan and thanks for the feedback. There are some other good shops as alternatives but I've heard some horror stories on the amount of time they may have the car. I've read the Corner Carvers thread and will go back and reread before I pull the trigger on anything. Sorry for the thread hijack Steve.

That's fine, the more the information the better.

So, I've got a question. I've spent all morning reading through a few weight reduction threads. I was glad to hear that there are several people who were able to do things to loose weight, keep it safe, yet also keep it street legal. Since I just don't have the funds right now to fully dive into CMC, there's no reason to make my car a track only car.

So here's my question about cages vs street. I know this is probably a hot topic. Right now I have a 4 pt roll bar, fully padded, racing seats, and a 5 pt harness, along with the stock 3 pt.

I know racing seats with no roll bars don't mix. I know stock seat belts and racing seats don't mix. So, on the street, I use just the lap belt, and then my 3 pt on top of that. It seems to be safer than just the 3 pt.

Now, is a fully padded 6 pt cage dangerous on the street? What's everyone's opinion on this?


I'm going to put my car on a weight loss program, while keeping it street legal along with doing all of the other CMC stuff that I can. Then, when I'm ready to jump into CMC, I don't have to change a whole lot.

I'm just not sure when to do the cage.

Also, as far as removing ABS, and air bags, does anyone have any concerns with legal issues on the street?

Using both the harness and the OEM belts is not recommended. The reason is that the inertial locking mechanism on the OEM belts depends on some motion of the upper body in order to lock. If your lap is held tight it could possibly affect the locking mechanism from doing its job. The car was designed and crash tested under street conditions with an unmodified restraint system.



IMO the halo around the drivers head is seriously dangerous, even padded, without a helmet and tight shoulder harnesses. I do not recommend a cage until the car is ready to go track only.



IMO there isn't a lot that makes sense to do on a street car. I've made notes on the list below. I would not do anything that doesn't make it a better street/track car now, and nothing that couldn't be reversed if you change your mind. Stuff done inside with a full interior will likely need to be reinstalled once the interior is gutted.

harnesses - yes, but don't use on the street
cutoff switch, battery box and wiring - yes, but will not reduce weight, just move it. Also I like to mount c/o switch on the cage, and there is no room for wiring behind the dash until it's gutted.
fire system and fire extinguisher - yes, but fire pull handle will get mounted to cage so leave the cable long enough
window net - no
right side net - no
spherical bearings for front LCA - yes
tow hooks -yes
firewall blockoff - no
headlight, turn signal, foglight blockoffs - no
oil cooler - yes, except that the street junk underhood will limit your options
radiator closeouts - yes, if you remove A/C
AC elim pulley - ditto
PS reservoir - yes
breather plumbing and catch tank - maybe, not emissions legal
bias valve - no
diff, gears and bearings - yes
steering wheel, QD - no, need airbag for street
hood and hatch pins - yes, but don't drill holes in your SS stuff, sell it for a profit
windshield clips - yes
cage, interior paint - no
numbers, stickers - no
transponder - yes



Not recommended. I don't trust the legal or insurance system to make any allowances for a race prepped car. If you get in a wreck on the street, say someone blows a stop and you Tbone them - your lack of ABS may move the liability from the perp to yourself. A jury knows nothing about driving or whether ABS would have made any difference.

Air bags - same situation, your passenger face plants into the dash because the airbags have been disabled.

This post has been edited by Blainefab: Nov 15 2011, 08:09 PM

To clarify - I probably did say that, the thought I meant to convey was that spending more or less money should not be a sole criteria for making the buy vs build decision. Once you have a realistic idea of the scope and cost of the build you can decide if you'll end up with a better car for yourself.

Just remember that the time you've already put into the car can't be sold. The cage should be the beginning of the final phase. Along with all the things Alan put no next to in the above list. You're not looking to jump into CMC next season so you've got time to deal with the powertrain and suspension aspect of the car. A lot of weight will come out of the car when you strip it to get the cage installed.

In that final push to race prep the car, if you are thorough, the gutting of the interior and underhood will remove more weight than the cage will add. Everything that comes out is stuff that makes the car a better street car, so cannot be removed prematurely unless you are willing to drive a cold/loud/illegal/unsafe car.



And the corollary to that is: time you put into the car doesn't cost you money. There is no line item on my list for 'gut the interior' but it will take 10-20hrs to do it properly. No one on a tight budget can afford to pay a shop to do a thorough job with this - that's why I see a lot of cages welded right over brackets that should have been removed first, or racers that decide their car is fat and try to cut the junk off after the car races for a season.

I advise against doing much serious race prep until it is time to make it a race car - you will end up redoing stuff, or leaving compromises in the car.

This post has been edited by Blainefab: Nov 16 2011, 07:28 AM

Maybe I came across to be more aggressive with prepping the car while it's still a street car than I really am. First of all, while it is still a street car, I hardly drive it. Mostly because I've been chasing that damn coolant leak lately, but also because it's just my weekend, good weather toy. I haven't had a radio in the car for a year now. But because it's not a dedicated track car yet, there's no reason to yank it off the street.
I'm not going to go crazy on it. I'll probably gut the interior from the front seats back, and start working on some things that aren't going to make a difference for the street. Like a lot of those little brackets and stuff. I know I can't do them all, but when I have an afternoon with nothing to do, I'll find something to remove.

Another big thing is the engine and rear end. I need to sell my 396 (anyone interested?) and get a stock LT1 (anyone got one?) As much as I'm going to miss my lump idle and my 380 ft/lbs of tq from 2200 RPM, I need to learn to drive with a stock engine. I figure when I pull the engine, I can also remove the AC and relocate the battery. I'll leave the ABS and airbags in tact, and wait on the cage.

I would like to get Alan's CF roof to replace my T-tops. (maybe early next year)
Hood pins,
Trunk pin
Remove fog lights
any brackets that I don't need
Remove the insulation out of the carpet that I'm keeping
Now that I'm thinking of it, maybe I'll relocate the battery sooner than later.

I still feel like there's a lot of little things I can do. Stuff that adds up the cost and time. Might as well get some of that stuff out of the way.

Does this make more sense? There's a couple of threads on here from '05 from guys lighting their street cars. Of course they went further than I'd go, but it'll give me an idea of what I can and can't remove.

I've got a query in to Al Fernandez re legality of my carbon roof panel for CMC. By the rule below it looks legal to me, but Al has the last word. Haven't got a response yet, he's been busy.

4.11 Convertible/T-top Cars
Convertible/T-top cars in the eligible models and years are allowed. Convertible cars must have an additional
support bar in the roof of the roll cage running either running from front to back located in the centerline of the
car, or diagonally from the front driver side to rear passenger side. This bar is not required but strongly
recommended for T top cars. Convertible/T-top cars must use driver arm restraints as required by the CCR
unless permanently fixed roof panels have been installed. Convertible cars must run with the top down during
competition and provide suitable means of securing the top in the event of a rollover, or may remove the top
and operating mechanism. T-top cars must remove the T-tops during competition unless permanently fixed
panels have been installed. All OEM structural additions for convertible/T-top cars must remain in place. Hard
top cars may not be made into convertible or T-top cars.

The way I read it is as long as you you don't cut out the center, the bar that goes from front to rear, it shouldn't be a problem. I appreciate you checking though. If it's legal, I'll probably place the order after the holidays are over.

This post has been edited by Steve91T: Nov 16 2011, 09:13 PM

I can't say anything that Alan hasn't already said, as he is the expert, but buying a CMC car is absolutely the way to go. The piece-meal approach is not the cheap or best way to do it. I say bite the bullet, sell your current car, take the losses, and get a purpose built CMC car already. Street driving a track car sucks (believe me, I know) and track driving a street car sucks.

YMMV.

I've decided to build my car. I realize that there isn't a whole lot that I can do until I pull it off the street, but there are the little things that I can do. I've got the interior mostly removed, I can start working on a lot of the brackets that need to be removed, I can deal with the T-Tops, and also swap the engine back to a stock one. For now, I'm going to fab up some interior door panels out of Al. to keep it looking fairly decent and also to hide the sharp edges of the inside door frame.

The only reason I'm leaving it street legal right now is so I can drive it while I'm not on the track. I've got too much going on right now (changing jobs, moving) to make the car fully CMC ready. Plus, I don't have the funds (hopefully that'll change soon).

When I started to ask questions on here, I figured I had two options. Drive my car as it is for a while, then try to sell it and buy a CMC ready car, or take my time and slowly work on mine. I decided to build my car for a couple of reasons.

I want to (it's fun)
I really get to learn the car, and appreciate the work that goes into it
And I get to see the changes in how it performs slowly over time.


I've already removed 81 lbs out of the car, and that doesn't include the already removed rear seats and belts, along with the lighter racing seats. I'm leaving the power windows, locks, air bags, AC and heat installed for as long as I can. I may remove the AC when I swap engines just because it'll be much easier with the engine out.

The last time I was on the track, I was driving a really heavy, high HP Camaro. Hopefully next time, I'll be driving a car that'll be at CMC power levels, and much closer to the target weight.

Al has confirmed that the BlaineFab carbon fiber roof panel is legal for CMC as a replacement for the glass Ttop panels. Also, the aluminum filler plates that I make to fill the holes are legal for CMC. These 2 parts together will provide protection for hands if the car tips over, restore the OEM aerodynamics, and add back in a bit of the rigidity lost with the Ttop vs the hardtop. Weight and CG are not significantly different than a hardtop car.

Cost wise, the Blainefab parts are a lot less expensive than buying a new hardtop roof, cutting it up and glueing it on, but if you have a junk hardtop car and the tools and time to cut the roof off that may be a less expensive solution.

This post has been edited by Blainefab: Dec 6 2011, 11:16 PM

Why yes, I do.

Thanks for the update. I'll probably get your top next year sometime.