And I don't think it's going to be in an F-body.

I've got a 97 SS with tons of mods. It's an absolute blast on the track, but rather expensive. Tires, brakes, fuel, and not to mention opti sparks . I love HPDE's, and I still have tons to learn, but I am dreaming of wheel to wheel racing. I've been doing HPDE's on and off for 12 years now, and I'm very comfortable in the experienced groups.

I've been thinking for years about Spec E30. It seems to be in my price range, but the cars, to me, are boring. I know everyone raves about how much fun the series is, but it doesn't excite me.

Spec Miata is another boring car, just more expensive.

FFR challenge would be fun, but out of my price range.

I've lately been thinking about Legends cars. Either that or the Thunder Roadsters. I've heard they are a blast to drive, relatively inexpensive to maintain, and if you crash, it's a lot easier to fix than an old street car. I live in VA, as you guys know, Charlotte, only 3 hrs away, is home to racing. The legends cars were born here, and has the largest turnout. Seems like you can get a legends car for less than $10K used. That's more or less the cost of a Spec E30.

I also know they can and do race them on road courses. I'm not sure what I think of the small circle tracks, but I'm sure they'd be fun.

Anyway, what do you guys think?

This is something I'm looking at doing in about 2 years. I'm going to be heading to pilot training for the Air National Guard sometime early next year, but after that, I'll have some free time again. It'll give me time to save up the money.

Thanks guys,
Steve

And why have you not considered CMC? Reason I ask is you already know the F-body. Thats takes alot of variables off the table w/ regards to how the car feels, how to tune the set-up and what does and does not work not to mention knowing the car mechanically already.
A large part of why I have been able to do so well in CMC is that I drove an F-body in HPDE for so long before I moved to wheel to wheel.

It's definitely not out of the question, but again the problem is cost. Now, I'm just assuming here, but I think it's going to be a more expensive form of racing. Maybe not the initial purchase price, but the cost to maintain the car through a season must be higher.

I also didn't think there were "that" many people racing CMC. I want to be a part of a growing group.

I could be completely wrong though. (probably am).

Another concern is crash cost. It's far more expensive to crash a Camaro with a unibody than it is a purpose built race car that has clips and cheap body panels that can be fairly easily replaced.

I'd love to hear your opinions though.

Thanks,
Steve

I thought the east coast had a large CMC group. I could be wrong.

I cant counter the "crash cost" part. I lost my first one last year. I was a hard hit and was fixable, but it was cheaper for me to just replace it.

My big costs for CMC racing are tires, brakes and hubs/rotors. Everything else holds up just fine.

If you don't mind me asking, how much did you spend to get started? Remember, I'm going to have to buy a dedicated track car. So, maybe $10K for the car after required equipment?

How long to brakes tires, and hubs last? How much to replace them? I've read that the TR cars can go 2 seasons on a set of brakes and possibly tires. At least one full season on tires. But the engines are about $4K, and don't last forever.

I have nothing against CMC, or spec miata/E30, or anything similar, but for some reason, I keep leaning towards the Thunder Roadsters. It just seems like using the sealed engines, and the same car, the cars will be more similar in performance, and will end up costing less.

I know the problem with spec miata is the fact that you almost have to rebuild the engine to the allowable specs to gain the extra 4 hp.

How is it with CMC?

I built me own car (top shelf build in 2004) and all my gear cost me about $10K (suit, hans, all safety). It can easily be done for less. Mitch and myself have built some nice cars for under $7k.


Pads last about 3-4 weekends. It really is track dependant. Rotors last about a season for fronts, 2-3 for rears. Once agian, track dependant.
Pads cost about $180 forthe fronts, $140 for the rear. Hubs are a hit or miss. I get over a year on used ones. My seasons are 24 races and 12 quals, and 6 practice sessions.


Big thing to keep in mind is: Go where the car count is, and race in a series where the rules in place can accually be policed.



I ran my 1st 2 seasons on a junkyard motor that has 80K on it. It made 285rwhp/320rwtq 100% stock. CMC back then was 230hp/300tq, so I ran a restrictor plate. Now CMC is 260hp/310tq and I still need a restrictor plate. I had a motor rebuilt in early 2007 (Feb) and it has lasted me up to this point w/ no loss in power. I make 263/309 w/ a 40mm plate in place. My rebuild cost me $1700 for the long block. I've had the trans rebuilt once. I've never hurt a diff.
Spec Miata's flaw is that they have no HP/TQ limit. They can make all the power they can afford as long as they use the OEM/legal parts. CMC limits the parts and the power. Top SM motors will cost you $15K easy. I've heard stories of $25K.
If you run SM, consider SSM. They have a HP limit.

I love budget racing, but I love racing w/ alot of cars even more.

That's very helpful and very interesting. I'll definitely look into CMC more.

Thanks again.
Steve

I'll echo a lot of what Glenn has already said. I am not sure you can beat the cost of racing in CMC.

I built my car for around 8k in 2006.

I usually get a 4-6 weekends out of a set of front pads and 2-3 years out of rears and I run stock rear pads.

I usually get a full season out of front rotors and rears bascially never wear out.

I go through two sets of tires per season.

I ran my first 135K junk yard motor from 2007 until this April when it finally gave up. I replaced it with another $500 junk yard motor.


My car is pretty much a budget built car with factory guages and modified factory wiring, but it has won a lot of races as it is.

James is selling himself short. He is a Regional Champ and is one of the top 5 drivers who ever raced in CMC. His car is plenty fast.

If you're in the Charlotte area, does that mean you would race with NASA Southeast? We have an ever growing AI field, and a healthy CMC2 field as well. For the last few race weekends, half the AI field has been rookies (me included). We even had a very fast '08 dodge challenger race with us last race weekend. I'm building a second AI F body for a friend who will race with us too. It's not uncommon to see 8+ car fields this year, we even had one with 15 cars at Road Atlanta this summer!

Ditch the opti for a LTCC unit (or better yet, an LS1!), and come race CMC2 or AI with us!

LTCC unit is not legal in CMC.

A friend of mine recently got a Legends car, and has been running it. He is having a blast, and it's not _too_ expensive to run. He's not running in any Legends series right now, usually just going out and beating up on more expensive cars on track and going home. He needs more gear, as he's pretty much on the rev limiter after the start. He got taken out at the last race by a VW, but it's just some rod ends, a front shock and a wheel, and he'll be back on track.

Other than that, Spec E30 would be another route. If you ball it up? Meh, it's just a Beener.

But that's me. I don't WTW because I don't have anything I can easily ball into a tire wall and not have feelings for when walking away. I do rent-a-racer for LeMons, and that's done it for me lately. It's not as cheap as they like you to think, but I don't have to worry much about the car between events.

With NASA, it seems that the group of people in each class matters as much as the car that they are driving. NASA encourages folks to get to know fellow drivers, and I believe this reduces avoidable contact on track. NASA is also very open and likes to show new racers around.

So, go to some NASA events, find the series directors and tell them the decision you have ahead of you and ask them the questions - they will have a more regionally specific response than we can here. Here in NorCal, the Legends and TR group tends to be separate and isolated from the rest of the classes - they do their own tech, have their own impound and scales, and do not appear to mix with the rest of the racers. I'll SWAG that that is part why, in sessions that they are mixed with other classes, they tend to cause a lot of angst on track. Working impound, I've been the first official ears that a racer gets to after a session, and I can't count the number of times I've heard "that damn Legend is a (insert insult here)". Probably completely different lines and braking points have something to do with that. If your region has enough car count to have dedicated sessions for the Legends/TR then this won't be an issue.

I've been close to SpecE30, built one, and NorCal has the largest fields in NASA - we've scaled 32 cars after a qual. SE30 is a true spec class - no monkeying around with brakes or suspension. Beyond the safety prep, you'll need to spend well under $1000 on spec shocks, springs and exhaust. Wheels and tires are $800 a set, complete. The cars are extremely well matched, performance is up to the driver and fine tuning setup. The BMW hardware appears to be bulletproof and plentiful in boneyards.

CMC is struggling in some regions, healthy in others. Rules creep has zinged the cost compared to E30. You and I are Chevy guys, if I was building a budget car it would be for CMC - there's a history (legend?) of competition between the bowtie and blue ovals that complements the class, and is absent in SE30 and SM. The disparity of platforms makes for many more choices and opportunities to spend money. Above all, V8's rock.

If you can't build the car yourself, buy an existing car. Get to know the cars and teams in your region, schedule your buy for this time of year, prices are lower in the last part of the year. While there are beater cars in any class, CMC has been around for a lot longer than SE30, and while I believe you'll spend less on a CMC car than a SE30, there will be some questionable older hardware out there - I would encourage you to have an independant shop do an eval on any used race car. The thoroughness and accuracy of annual tech varies a lot from region to region.

Alan - I think the "issues" that always seem to crop up from class's that originate from paved ovels or dirt stem from a complete lack of seat time or road course seat time. Just because a guy has spent 10 years on dirt does not qualify him to race on a road course. More times than not those guys are an HPDE2/3 guy at best. The directors of those series "vouch" for them all too often when they should not. They likely have no idea how there actions cause issue. We run w/ "those" cars sometimes durring Sat practice. Everyone of our guys dreds it. They always do something dumb. Contact in practice, put a car in the wall ending practice early, oiling the whole track down - alwasy something.

Wow, I just found out that TR's never really took off. They only race them at a couple of different tracks. And I know that Legends cars are mostly circle track, which would be fun, but I'd rather do road racing.

I might have to look further into Spec E30. It's just that I've been for a ride in several, and while anything on the race track is fun, it just seems like the car is boring.

I know Alan said some good things about them, but could you guys see yourselves racing them? I also don't know anything about SSM, it's something I think I'll look into.

I just really like the idea of a purpose built race car. Like someone said, if you crash it, you unbolt the damaged parts, and bolt new ones on. They are made for this.

I am mechanically inclined, but I can't weld. Someday I want to learn, but it's going to have to wait.


One thing that I did notice is the Legends cars are racing all over the place, all the time. Of course this is circle track stuff, but it's racing.

What do you guys think about circle track racing? Have any of you done it? I remember when I was a teenager, my dad used to bring me and my brother to the Legends car races at Charlotte during the 90's. They were a lot of fun to watch, and I'm sure even more fun to race.

I raced Legends for three years in the mid-west. You assumption is right, they are primary used for circle track but there are a lot of people that do run them on the road course. The Thunder Roasters were interesting and thought they would have been better received. There are two areas of these cars I am concerned about, engines and tires (what a shock, hu?).

In road racing and even the longer circle track races, the FJ motors just don't hold together well. 600 racing several years ago developed a water cooled head for the Thunder Roasters in an attempt to help the temp/engine life issue. It was assumed they would be allowed in Legends but that never happened. Before there were two engine programs, sealed and open motors. The sealed motors now can only be rebuilt by US Legends Cars. While you can still run a unsealed 1216 motor and have it re-built by anyone, engines are harder and harder to find, the prices are going up (when I started a rebuild was 1k, I've been hearing 3-4k for a freshen up now) and if you do well at a national event, it will be coming apart.

The tire rule favors those who shave tires down, run them for one race and have them destroyed. The series states once two consecutive wear bars are shown, the tires are destroyed - but they were legal in the event. Guys are literally putting tires on every night. I ran 16 races on my right sides before I replaced them in 2005. I don't think this is prevalent everywhere, but be aware, at a competitive track or national event, this will happen.

If you were going to go circle track racing again, the expense of the car, parts, and tires is almost identical to a big 8 car. Gas is the only expense that is greater. Granted, if you buy a big 8 car, you can't switch it from road course to circle track at will. They were a blast to drive, but parts have gotten a lot more expensive and motors are no longer cheap - that's why I got into them.

Wow, well that's some great info. I really appreciate your thoughts. Disappointing though. Maybe I'll just race radio controlled cars

I'm still going to look into CMC or AI cars, although I feel they are still going to be too expensive for me. Spec E30 is huge out here, and I'll look into SSM. As much as I can't stand the sounds that Miata's make, I bet they would be fun to race.

What other spec style racing have people on here done?

Check out this video I found. I was just at VIR, and this little Spec E30 was roughly 6 seconds faster than in my 430 HP Camaro. Of course I'm an amateur and on street tires, and he's a pro driver. Still impressive. But what is that 3rd gen Camaro that passes down the back stretch at about the 1:45 mark? Is that a CMC or AI car? He's flying!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdoSnKdgEXk

Sorted out my protruck and won my first event. Camaro saved my ass two weeks ago when I broke a srocker stud in the truck, raced home to get the Camaro and had an absolute blast!!

But the Camaro has to go, can't have two cars. Very well sorted and fast. Willing to negotiate.

http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/index.php?sho...mp;#entry162339

AI is just stupid expensive. Most of those cars are int he 30-40K range.
In that vid - that was not a CMC car. It pilled too hard down the straight. Looked alot like a AI car.

If spec E30 is big where you are, that is likely where you should look. If CMC has anywhere near 15 cars per event, I would pick that over E-30.

Look at rule stability as well. CMC has not done well w/ this. A few years back NASA HQ forced CMC to allow new cars. This forced the Directors to creat CMC2 untill we coulf figure out how to get the cars the same performance wise. Now that we have it pretty close, we are back to 1 CMC class for 2012. This alone will cause the car count in CMC to jump.
For now most all the CMC Directors have a goal of minimizing change for a few years. Spec E-30 may have been through this, of is about to. Tires is another big deal. FOr now Toyo RA1's suck, but they suck the same for everyone and the suck the same for a long time.

I know its probably not a good idea if you can't weld and do some fab, but what about F600? On the outside looking in, F600 looks to be a ton of fun and seems like it should be dirt cheap to race. Of course I've heard about it for the last few years and so far only a handful of cars have been converted.

I'm having a hard time finding out much info on these cars. I'm not even finding much on the F500's, which I know the F600 will be replacing.

Steve

Stay away from AI, way too much $$$$ and the rules are set up for the new Ford Factory Race Cars to winn all the time, CMC is where its at unless there is no CMC in your area then spec E30 might be fun, but try CMC its cheap and you'll have a blast...
my .02 cents

I've been poking around on the spec E30 forums a little, and it's definitely a possibility. One thing I will say is that I have NEVER heard anything bad about spec E30. Never. And it is huge around here. I'm going to see if I can figure out how strong the field is out here.

Why is it the CMC forums are dead? Is this where everyone is?

I'm also trying to figure out what to do with my current Camaro. It's a 97SS. The body has about 97,000 miles, and the engine is a stroked 396. About 380 rwhp.
It's got a bolt in roll bar, no factory seats, just two racing seats with full interior, no radio or speakers. Corvette front brakes, stock rear.

The thing is, it's still not worth anything. I'm just kind of tossing around the idea of selling off the parts I can't use in CMC, like the engine, brakes,
roll bar, and probably some brakes. Do some safety work and go racing. It seems like a CMC car is going for $10-12K. I don't think I'd be able to sell my car for that much. The engine has less than 50K miles.

If I go this route, what's the most expensive part? The cage, right? What does something like that cost?

Doing this would probably allow me to go racing for a lot less. And as much as I love my Camaro, it is just a Camaro. They really are a dime a dozen.

Is this a bad idea?


Edit: I take it back, I found a CMC forum that seems to be pretty active.

I'd sell you a virtual AI car for $12k (it needs a windsheild and a dash of some kind to meet the rules...and a fire system). I can't believe that they are actually changing hands for that much. Race car values seem to be in the toilet right now. At 12k I haven't had so much as an email on mine and there's 3 times that much invested in it and others seem to be practically giving cars away as well...keep looking.

Well, I'm not going to be doing anything for roughly 2 years. I'm about to go through pilot training for the military, which means I'm going to have no time. But, my plan is to be racing something as soon as I get out. I've been reading a little on the CMC forums, and watching some videos, I think you guys are right, I'd have a blast in CMC.

I think it just comes down to what I want to do. Turn my car into a dedicated race car, or sell it, and get something else. I also just read that C5 brakes are allowed, which is nice because I already have them. As much as I don't want to tear up my car, I'm thinking that it's going to make a perfect race car. Just needs the safety equipment and a stock LT1.

If I go this route, I'll just enjoy it for another 2 years, then turn in the plates and start selling off the stuff I don't need.

I have a question (big surprise), because of the schedule I'm going to have, I will not be able to make every race. Probably won't be able to afford it, even if I did have the time. How does this work as far as the points system goes? Also, is there a purse at each race? How does that work, and how much does that end up being?

6k for this car is a steal
http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/index.php?showtopic=15273

Yeah it is. I guess I was a little high on my estimate. I guess it's going to be down to how much I could realistically sell my car for, but I don't think it's going to be very much. Built LT1 or not.

If someone would buy mine, I'd be on the phone right now making arrangements to go buy that one...(then I'd find an interior and make it back into something I could drive on occasion). I've been looking at that ad and wishing my garage wasn't already full.

I know the feeling. I'm in the process of posting my dirt bike for sale. I never thought I'd sell that thing. But I really need to downsize some of my hobbies.

It's a little late to get into this discussion, but for competitive seat time, nothing will beat 24 hours of lemons or chumpcar, dollar for dollar.

4 drivers on a team, 14 hour race. Minimum. one goes out to 25:25:25. Average price for an arrive and drive is 500-600 for the shorter races and up to 1000.00 for a 24.

I'd like to get into CMC or AI, but I spend less in a lemons race than I do on a 2 day HPDE.

plus, it's great training for any wheel to wheel wannabe. The guy who builds the Riley daytona prototypes runs the Boom Pow Surprise team (probe), there are a ton of roadracers, Indy car, indy light, ASA, Tony Stewart was at the VIR 24 last year, came in around 20th. There's at least 80 Chumps who can say they beat Tony Stewart that day.

i had around 4-5000 into my car, close to half was wheels, tires, brakes.

i just bought (today) a 93 T/A for 726.00. I've got a garage full of F body upgrades (packrat) and an autopower cage I got for free.

Even if you're not into building yourself a crapcan, do an arrive and drive.

Hey guys. So it looks like I'm not going to be able to fly for the military, at least not for the next couple of years. I don't have the funds right now to convert my Camaro to CMC2, but I want to start planning.

I need to look closer at the rules, but I believe I have all of the suspension and brakes that I need. More or less.
I need to sell my 430 hp stroked LT1 (396) and get a stock LT1. Hopefully I can actually make a little money there.
I need to strip the rest of the interior and sell off my racing seats for something safer and approved. (maybe the money I make on the engine will pay for the seat?)
I also need a fire system

Now, for the expensive part. The roll cage. Who would be on the east cost that is reputable? And how much is this going to cost?


I'm kind of torn on which direction to go. If I were to sell my car, it probably wouldn't sell for very much. $8000 maybe? It's got nearly 100,000 miles on the chassis, and about 50,000 easy miles on the engine. But I know just about every nut and bolt in the car. And at the end of the day, it's still "just" a Camaro. They really are a dime a dozen.

What do you guys think? Think it would be more cost effective to put a cage in mine and go racing? Or to look for another cheap Camaro to race with? The only thing I'd like would be an LS1. I really don't like optisparks.

Anyway, I know I'm still a little ways away from doing this, but I'd like to start planning my move. Also, if I'm going to CMC my Camaro, I may start doing things in stages, like swap out my engine for a stock LT1, to get used to the power. But I'll keep it street legal for as long as I can.

Thanks,
Steve

I've been reading through the CMC2 rules. I think what I'm going to do is slowly, over time, build my car into a CMC2 car (I know it's changing for 2012). This way I'm not plunking down a large amount of cash for a car that I can't race yet. I can do HPDE's with my car for now, eventually race school, and still keep it street legal for a little while longer. I'm still trying to figure out how much it's going to cost me though.

From reading through the rules a couple of times, here's what I figure I'll need to do.

Sell my stroked LT1 for a stock LT1. Stock LT1=500. Any idea how much my 396 will go for?
Sell long tube headers, al. flywheel.
Sell my non approved racing seats and belts.

Replace my T-tops with metal panels.
Gut the interior (no cost, just time)
Get an approved racing seat.
Have a cage welded up.
Add safety equipment

So.....$4000 to $5000 not including anything that I could sell?

harnesses
cutoff switch, battery box and wiring
fire system and fire extinguisher
window net
right side net
wheels and tires and spacers
shocks, springs, front coilovers
swaybars
spherical bearings for front LCA
UCA bushings
rodend rear LCA, PH
tow hooks
rollcage padding
firewall blockoff
headlight, turn signal, foglight blockoffs
oil cooler
power steering cooler
radiator closeouts
AC elim pulley
exhaust
PS reservoir
breather plumbing and catch tank
EGR, AIR blockoffs
front brakes
front brake duct plenums, ducts
brake pads
brake lines
bias valve
diff, gears and bearings
ARP wheel studs
steering wheel, QD
hood and hatch pins
windshield clips
cage, interior paint
numbers, stickers
fluids
transponder
HANS, helmet, driving suit, undies, shoes
replace worn out stuff - chin deflector, tire rod ends, ball joints, clutch, T56 synchros

Put a 1 in front of your estimate.

^^ What he said! It's not the big things that kill you. You can budget for a crate motor and cage. It's the wire you have to get to run this circuit, the $3 a piece window clips that you have to get 10 of, and the $20 hold down you have to get to relocate the battery, and the $2 each for the terminal lugs you have to get to run battery cable to that relocated battery that will nickle-and-dime you to death. That's why finding someone's already-built fire sale is such a deal. Get a car that's built and make it your own. You'll be a ton of money ahead.

Heck, the personal safety gear alone will probably knock on $2K, and that's if you're looking at the low-end gear.

As Alan pointed out there are a lot of little things that add up but you can slowly put everything together and that's what I'm doing. I just did the battery relocation with box, master kill switch and did the oil catch can with all of the plumbing and fittings. All of the parts alone were over $400 with me doing the labor. Just take it slow and you'll get there.

I'll probably bite the bullet and get a cage installed within the next year. I know it's a haul for you but I'm probably going to have Race Car Builders of South Florida do my cage. They've done quite a few NASA cages and you can see some of their work in this 18 page epic on the NASA Florida forum. Cage Builders Thread I haven't had them quote the cage yet but I know their prices are fair.

harnesses
cutoff switch, battery box and wiring
fire system and fire extinguisher
window net
right side net
spherical bearings for front LCA
tow hooks
firewall blockoff
headlight, turn signal, foglight blockoffs
oil cooler
radiator closeouts
AC elim pulley
PS reservoir
breather plumbing and catch tank
bias valve
diff, gears and bearings
steering wheel, QD
hood and hatch pins
windshield clips
cage, interior paint
numbers, stickers
transponder





I removed from the list what I already have. I was expecting the list to be much shorter. I know you guys are correct in saying that I will spend more money building my car compared to selling mine, then buying a ready to race CMC car. But the problem is that if I sell my car, I'm basically giving away all of the nickel and dime stuff, and all the hours I've put into my own car. The brakes, the cooling ducts, the suspension, the PS cooler.....the list goes on. If my car was stock, or close to it, I would sell it in a heart beat, because it makes the most sense. But being that I've got so much invested in my car already, it's hard to figure out which is really the better deal.

I just need to make more money....

You bring up a good point also. I enjoy working on my car, especially when I have a goal in mind. If I do decide to keep the car, doing all of these things over time, while I'm still doing HPDE's and driving on the street seems like the way to go.

heh.. there's more - I just listed the basics to put together a car that could be competitive. I wanted you to know how deep the pool is you are jumping into.




I didn't say that. If you can afford to build your own car, and have the ability and tools, then go for it. Race cars tend to become quite personalized - buying someone elses will always require some adjustment to get it to fit. Also, some wear items will tend to be near their end of life, whereas building your own with good/new parts leaves you with a new race car.



I don't see resale on a LT1 4th gen being over $4k, no matter what the condition. None of the non stock parts will net you more than 20% of what you paid for them. IMO you've got 2 clear choices:

1) buy a bone stock LS1 4th gen for $3 or 4K, swap the suspension and brakes between the cars, sell the SS. If it is really nice condition and you find a buyer willing to pay the 'SS' tax you might get $6K for it, but it could take a year and some advertising dollars.

2) Sell your SS hood and rear spoiler and badges, pick up a Z28 hood, and tear into the car you have. Sell the built motor, buy a stocker. Better yet, sell the complete built LT1/T56/wiring as a package, buy a stock LS1/T56/wiring to swap in.

Anthony does a lot of street car cages, and there is stuff in that thread that is clearly illegal for a NASA race car build, and other stuff that is not best practice. If you have him build the cage make sure he understands that he needs to follow NASA CCR cage rules, and give him written details on how you want your cage built.

I spent about 30 minutes on the phone with Carlos at goroadracing.com. He seemed very knowledgeable about CMC rules being that he races CMC himself. He's only a couple of hours away from me, so I'd probably use him.

There's some illegal stuff in his project galleries, too.

There's a good bit of cage tech in this thread: http://corner-carvers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27556 it's long, read the whole thing.

I personally think you just need to move to the east coast. Get away from that nasty weather and mean people I'd love to be able to drop my car off at your shop for a few days.

Most of the problems I see in other shops work are detail errors - for whatever reason they just get used to doing it that way. If a you go in with a written list, with example pictures and/or diagrams that address those details, you should be able to get a good product. You can tell early in the build if they just tossed your instructions or are going to follow them. I have always appreciated an informed customer. If they want something specific that isn't a safety negative, I'll go with it, or work out an acceptable option if it is.

I had Carlos do my cage. He is more than willing to look at pictures and discuss cage design with you. He understands that you're paying for this and it is your car. So he'll listen, but you have to have good reasons to do things he might not have thought to do. His work is top notch and would never think twice to send anyone his way. Many of the NASA MA racers have been to him. You'll see his stickers on many of the cars in the paddock at VIR.

I think holding onto your car and slowly building it to CMC would be the best way to go. Pull the motor and package it up well. Keep it in the corner and you can end up getting what you want out of it. Someone will end up blowing a motor over on LS1tech.com and be on the hunt for something. Take your time and do it one little project at a time. By the time it's a finished and legal CMC car you've put some serious seat time in and really know the car.

I was hoping you would take a look at it Alan and thanks for the feedback. There are some other good shops as alternatives but I've heard some horror stories on the amount of time they may have the car. I've read the Corner Carvers thread and will go back and reread before I pull the trigger on anything. Sorry for the thread hijack Steve.

That's fine, the more the information the better.

So, I've got a question. I've spent all morning reading through a few weight reduction threads. I was glad to hear that there are several people who were able to do things to loose weight, keep it safe, yet also keep it street legal. Since I just don't have the funds right now to fully dive into CMC, there's no reason to make my car a track only car.

So here's my question about cages vs street. I know this is probably a hot topic. Right now I have a 4 pt roll bar, fully padded, racing seats, and a 5 pt harness, along with the stock 3 pt.

I know racing seats with no roll bars don't mix. I know stock seat belts and racing seats don't mix. So, on the street, I use just the lap belt, and then my 3 pt on top of that. It seems to be safer than just the 3 pt.

Now, is a fully padded 6 pt cage dangerous on the street? What's everyone's opinion on this?


I'm going to put my car on a weight loss program, while keeping it street legal along with doing all of the other CMC stuff that I can. Then, when I'm ready to jump into CMC, I don't have to change a whole lot.

I'm just not sure when to do the cage.

Also, as far as removing ABS, and air bags, does anyone have any concerns with legal issues on the street?

Using both the harness and the OEM belts is not recommended. The reason is that the inertial locking mechanism on the OEM belts depends on some motion of the upper body in order to lock. If your lap is held tight it could possibly affect the locking mechanism from doing its job. The car was designed and crash tested under street conditions with an unmodified restraint system.



IMO the halo around the drivers head is seriously dangerous, even padded, without a helmet and tight shoulder harnesses. I do not recommend a cage until the car is ready to go track only.



IMO there isn't a lot that makes sense to do on a street car. I've made notes on the list below. I would not do anything that doesn't make it a better street/track car now, and nothing that couldn't be reversed if you change your mind. Stuff done inside with a full interior will likely need to be reinstalled once the interior is gutted.

harnesses - yes, but don't use on the street
cutoff switch, battery box and wiring - yes, but will not reduce weight, just move it. Also I like to mount c/o switch on the cage, and there is no room for wiring behind the dash until it's gutted.
fire system and fire extinguisher - yes, but fire pull handle will get mounted to cage so leave the cable long enough
window net - no
right side net - no
spherical bearings for front LCA - yes
tow hooks -yes
firewall blockoff - no
headlight, turn signal, foglight blockoffs - no
oil cooler - yes, except that the street junk underhood will limit your options
radiator closeouts - yes, if you remove A/C
AC elim pulley - ditto
PS reservoir - yes
breather plumbing and catch tank - maybe, not emissions legal
bias valve - no
diff, gears and bearings - yes
steering wheel, QD - no, need airbag for street
hood and hatch pins - yes, but don't drill holes in your SS stuff, sell it for a profit
windshield clips - yes
cage, interior paint - no
numbers, stickers - no
transponder - yes



Not recommended. I don't trust the legal or insurance system to make any allowances for a race prepped car. If you get in a wreck on the street, say someone blows a stop and you Tbone them - your lack of ABS may move the liability from the perp to yourself. A jury knows nothing about driving or whether ABS would have made any difference.

Air bags - same situation, your passenger face plants into the dash because the airbags have been disabled.

To clarify - I probably did say that, the thought I meant to convey was that spending more or less money should not be a sole criteria for making the buy vs build decision. Once you have a realistic idea of the scope and cost of the build you can decide if you'll end up with a better car for yourself.