Watts Link, No joke..... Options

[Sam Strano]

I'm now happy to announce we can take pre-orders on a Watts Link for all 82-02 F-bodies with stock diamter axle tubes. There is a version for bigger axle tubes (suck as 12-bolts, etc.) in the works.

They should be ready to ship in approximately 2-3 weeks. The unit is made by Fays2 who has been doing these for Mustangs for more than a few years. I not only trust the unit and have had all my questions answered, but will be putting one on my car as soon as possible. Jim and I have had a few discussions about the design and I'm happy to say he addressed my main concerns regarding approximate roll-center height. I wanted to make sure we could start @ stock height and adjust down as the owner sees fit. That has been done and implimented in this unit.

Details, specs and a photo on a 4th gen can be seen here:
http://www.stranoparts.com/partdetails.php...7&ModelID=7

(IMG:http://www.stranoparts.com/data/images/p30617181655.jpg)


Price is $650 Plus shipping. Shipping costs will normally not exceed $30 in most cases.

Fays2 own website has the pricing set lower, but after a discussion with Jim Fay, he informed me the prices are incorrect and will be changed.

[poSSum]

Can you tell someone that is slowly grasping the concept of "what are you trying to fix?" when considering parts what a Watt's linkage fixes?

[Bald54]

I was just curious what Solo class those would be allowed in. Sorry, I'm too lazy to look it up in the rule book.

[slowTA]

Will this require a spring and shock change too? Looking forward to reviews.

[Sam Strano]

Let's see if I can answer all 3 in one post...

What are we "trying to fix"? The arc the PHB swing on as the suspension and body move up and down. Long PHB's have a lesser amount of arc than short ones, but it's still there. In fact on my car the PHB is set so that when viewed on 315's the LR body is actually not 100% centered. If I center the body the LR tire will rub the inner fender and the RR will rub the quarter panel due to the arc the PHB moves in as the car moves. And because of the way a PHB mounts, the roll center moves up and down depending on which way you are turning. The PHB acutally pushes up and pulls down on the body when you are going in different directions. A Watts link does not do this, there is no jacking up or down, and the axle moves truly veritically up and down but still has all the lateral control (and maybe even a bit more since the arms are shorter and stiffer than a roughly 4' long PHB that is more subject to flexing (which is why I don't use tubular aluminum PHB's).

Ever notice, if you have a data logger, or have seen logs that PHB don't pull the same G load though left and right hand corners? Even if you corner balance it perfectly, the dynamic change in the roll center height effects the balance of the car. To this point nobody has had a Watts for this car. I've been trying to do one, but I'm not a machinist and don't have the ability. This is something that has been long overdue for the truly serious, but for one reason or another nobody acutally got made. Been talked about for a long time for this car, and have been around for a LONG time for other cars. In fact the 1st generation Mazda RX7 had one stock (in 1978). Australian V8 Supercars use them (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V8_Supercars). Trans-Am/GT1 cars use them (though I don't know they all do).

What classes are they legal for? ESP, SM... maybe in STX and STU too, but I'd have to read up on their rules. It is 100% ESP legal.

Shock and spring change needed? Nope. The upper most adjustment is at stock static roll center height (it moves up and down in action as stated before). You can drop it if you like (and some of you do). You can drop the roll center height in very small increments, .5" at a time if you see fit.

This post has been edited by Sam Strano: Jul 18 2008, 12:28 AM

[marka]

Howdy,

Sam, have you done a back to back test with this thing yet?

Mark

[Sam Strano]

I have not, and don't claim to--yet. Nothing here I don't like but the little gain in unsprung weight, and that's so minor considering the mass we already carry.

I will, and I'm sure it'll be easier to drive (which I'm looking forward to). I might just have to un-retire the Camaro for 2009....

This post has been edited by Sam Strano: Jul 18 2008, 12:39 AM

[marka]

Howdy,

I have not, and don't claim to--yet. Nothing here I don't like but the little gain in unsprung weight, and that's so minor considering the mass we already carry.

I will, and I'm sure it'll be easier to drive (which I'm looking forward to). I might just have to un-retire the Camaro for 2009....

I'll be interested to hear results from the test... Hopefully you'll do a true back to back with the panhard vs. the watts link.

Its certainly true that it seems like anyone that's serious (that can) uses a watts link rather than a panhard. I've always wondered if that was a "real" difference or something more theoretical than anything else.

Mark

[sgarnett]

It looks like adjusting the roll center height could be done in minutes with ramps. Just loosen the center bolt, slide it to where you wnat it, tighten bolt, done! Small changes in the roll center height can be used to fine-tune the handling, and don't necessarily require spring and shock changes.

My roll center is set somewhere in the ballpark of 3/4~1" lower than Sam's (using the PHR), and I'm still using 150 springs and Koni 3rd gen rear shocks on the second softest setting. I do run a stiffer rear bar though.

OTOH, if you want to drop it the full 3.5" allowed by the Watts setup (which I don't think Sam is suggesting), you will probably need to change the springs and shocks.

Coincidentally, I have a test-n-tune coming up in mid August. Hmmm....

This post has been edited by sgarnett: Jul 18 2008, 04:49 AM

[sgarnett]

Sam, do you know if that will clear an AAM/SS diff cover?

[Sam Strano]

Chris asked it if would require a spring and shock change. As long as you current roll center height is between stock and 3.5" lower your current setup will work. The more you play with the height, you might find you want to tweak springs, shocks, and/or bars to best match, but that's not any different than when we play with any number of other things.

And yep, the height adjustment is easy. As far as I can see the only hassle will be having to remove the link to do gear work/oil changes because the diff cover becomes a bit hidden.

The diff cover will not be an issue as far I can tell. I mentioned elsewhere (maybe not here), that the swaybar has to rotate up and behind the diff cover, and the Watts does not hinder that movement. In fact I've seen cars where the rear bar has dragged an AAM cover under compression.

[Sam Strano]

That's 2 orders so far.

FWIW, I'm taking pre-orders. You order, but I don't charge the card until I get the word they are getting ready to ship. When I have a more exact ETA, I'll post the date. As of now it's scheduled to be within 3 weeks.

[00 SS]

Sam,

Does installation require any permanent changes to the car or does it just bolt up to existing brackets?

Thanks,

[sgarnett]

"True Bolt in design. No welding, cutting, and uses factory mounting points"

[00 SS]

OK, so I missed that part.

[JimMueller]

Hmm, so will this play nicely with those folks who have the UETA and say 300lb rear springs due to lowering the rear PHB 4"? Oh, does it come in black?

[sgarnett]

Eliminating lateral movement of the axle should actually make setting up the UETA slightly easier.

It sounds like the Watts setup will allow you to get the roll center to within about 1/2" of your lowered PHB setup. That may make the car slightly looser. On the OTOH, since the roll center won't be moving around as much with the Watts setup, slightly looser may be OK.

I'm glad you asked about a black finish option. I'd prefer that too, but I can live with red (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

This post has been edited by sgarnett: Jul 20 2008, 03:12 AM

[93FirehawkTA]

I'm interested... but its gotta come in black (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/gr_grin.gif)

[Sam Strano]

I'll have to check on black. I'm not sure if that can be done or not, but I could care less. I'm getting it for what it does, not what it looks like. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

If the roll center heights are set the same the result should be similar, but with less change in RC height (basically none) with the Watts vs. it moving both up and down to some degree with the PHB.

[sgarnett]

I'll have to check on black. I'm not sure if that can be done or not, but I could care less. I'm getting it for what it does, not what it looks like. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It's no big deal for me either way, but IF there's a choice, I'd take discrete chassis black (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I certainly wouldn't delay my order for it.

[2manyfbods]

are there anymore pics of it ?

[JimMueller]

I wonder if the welded-in UE PHB lowering brackets and brace tube will interfere with this?

[Sam Strano]

It mounts to the stock location PHB body and brace mounts.... I can't say if brackets will effect installation, I guess it depends on how the body side bracket is welded in.

Any more pics? Not on my website, but there are some I can e-mail only.

Again, I'm checking on black.

[Crazy Canuck]

I'm interested in one... if they don't come in black, first thing I'll do is strip it down and spray paint it black... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) .
Sam, let me know before you send any C5 exhaust to my place so that we can ship the whole thing together for both cars.
Thanks.

[Sam Strano]

They can't ship together anyway.... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Besides, do you want to wait on a month, two, a year until Ron decides what he wants to do (if anything) with his exhaust? The last message I got amounted to "that's about $2000, I'll have to think about it.

[sgarnett]

Judging from the photo, I think the body side may be OK with the UE PHB lowering setup. At most, you may have to grind just a little off the end of the Watts link brace (below/outboard of the lower bolt hole of the stock bracket). It looks like there's room to do that without affecting the strength at all. However, there's a gap between the plate bridging the sides of the UE bracket extension and the sheet metal bridging the sides of the stock bracket, so you might not need to grind at all. Either way, it looks like no big deal and it should be fully reversible/swappable [at that end].

The axle bracket extension itself should not be a problem. However, the bracing tube might interfere with the Watts bracket that bolts to that side.

I wasn't entirely satisfied with job that the welder (not me) did, and decided that making it adjustable as Jon A did sounded like a good idea. I sawed the tube back off flush with the axle tube and bracket using a Sawzall bimetallic blade to slice through the weld, then cleaned it up with an angle grinder and Dremel. I paid more attention to getting the bracket smooth and flat than to getting the axle tube perfect (also didn't want to thin the axle tube any). So, there's probably still enough residual evidence on the axle tube that I'll be able to tell if it would have interfered, or may even need to dress it a bit with a file. I'll let you know.

I did add a brace tube on the outboard side (welded inboard of the bearing), but never got around to rebracing it enough on the inboard side to allow lowering the PHB [the rest of the way]. It isn't that big a deal to cut off the existing brace tube, and should you ever decide to reinstall the PHB for some reason, you could go ahead and make it adjustable, and weld the brace at a different angle that would allow the UE PHB and Watts setups to be fully interchangeable in the future.

This post has been edited by sgarnett: Jul 22 2008, 05:33 PM

[93FirehawkTA]

Another question... any issues with exhaust clearances when the intermediate pipe roughts over the axle?... or is some "massaging" required? Given the wide variety of exhaust systems, I'd assume the later is true?

Thx

[Sam Strano]

Another question... any issues with exhaust clearances when the intermediate pipe roughts over the axle?... or is some "massaging" required? Given the wide variety of exhaust systems, I'd assume the later is true?

Thx

None.. in fact there is actually a little more room than with the PHB Brace in place (you don't need it because the way the Watts is, the entire thing is bolted to both the left side "brace mount" and the right side PHB/Brace mount on the body.

[Sam Strano]

Color update:

Fays2 has used Red since they started building these... When I asked about black he was a little suprised that the color might make or break a sale on such a big part (that's not available anywhere else).

That said, he told me he'd consider it. The issue is he has to run batches to the powdercoater and it's just more trouble to do it all the way around. More cost, more time, and more overhead when you now have to carry two of the same part, but for a color change.

In the end, orders speak. If I get a number of orders who prefer black I think we can make that happen. But you have to get your pre-orders in, and soon so I can arrange any possibility of a black option. Those pre-orders need to have a notation on them that you prefer black if that's the case.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Shipping update:

Shipping within the next 3 weeks was the word I got today. First come, first served. Early orders go out first
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Fitment update:

A unit was test fitted to a car with a Dana S60 rear, and also a 12-bolt rear. The bottom line is that you will order by axle tube size. We cannot be responsible for all the different axle tubes that might be around (there are at least a couple). The Watts Link is standard for the car, only the axle clamps vary--you'll just need to measure your tube diameter to make sure we send you the correct size.

[veinharvest]

Hey Sam,
I want to play too!
Color doesn't matter to me, but If batch numbers are important to Fays2, I'd be okay with black if it means that the color becomes a possibility available to others.
Oh yea nice courses this past weekend. Pit-bike or golf cart? (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Its just too bad I suck.
call me if you need to.
Ted B

[JimMueller]

I chose black for my parts because I don't like the bling factor of red. *shrug* It won't prevent me from buying it but I won't be in the first batch - because of other bills, not because of the color.

[Sam Strano]

Hey Sam,
I want to play too!
Color doesn't matter to me, but If batch numbers are important to Fays2, I'd be okay with black if it means that the color becomes a possibility available to others.
Oh yea nice courses this past weekend. Pit-bike or golf cart? (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Its just too bad I suck.
call me if you need to.
Ted B

If you want to play, you need to go order it (easier for me to keep track). http://www.stranoparts.com/partdetails.php...7&ModelID=7 (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) You can just leave me a note on the color (you do care, you don't care....).

Glad you liked the courses Ted, wish I could have run them. And neither a bike or cart, I walked most of the time setting that up, and my foot paid for it dearly until today.

[Sam Strano]

I chose black for my parts because I don't like the bling factor of red. *shrug* It won't prevent me from buying it but I won't be in the first batch - because of other bills, not because of the color.

I understand... I'm not big on red either.

[BigEnos]

I'm interested... but its gotta come in black (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/gr_grin.gif)

(IMG:http://www.duplicolor.com/gallery/gallery_images/can_premium2.jpg)

It's your friend. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/nutkick.gif)

[sgarnett]

First come, first served. Early orders go out first

Sounds fair to me, since I think I'm either first or second in line (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Cr0usEEE]

and I think I am 3rd or 4th....plus I don't care WHAT color it is as long as I can make it go fast.

[veinharvest]

If you want to play, you need to go order it (easier for me to keep track). http://www.stranoparts.com/partdetails.php...7&ModelID=7 (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) You can just leave me a note on the color (you do care, you don't care....).
/quote]

DONE!

This post has been edited by veinharvest: Jul 22 2008, 08:32 PM

[Major_Lee_Slow]

Sam,

I can see how the center pivot is adjustable up and down, which allows for roll center height adjustment. Is there also an allowance for vertical adjustment of the axle side of the horizontal links? I believe that optimum benefit of the Watt's linkage occurs when both horizontal bars are parallel to each other and to the axle and the vertical bar is perpendicular to these links when the car is sitting at ride height. If not, I think the non-optimal geometry has the potential to introduces scrub in either one or both turning directions.

Second, Do the rear brake lines which run along the axle need to be rerouted to clear the Watt's linkage axle mounts?

[Rampant]

I will be wanting a Moser 12 bolt version.

I need a motor installed be fore this though. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

I am curious if this would make it launch a little truer at the drag strip?

[sgarnett]

Second, Do the rear brake lines which run along the axle need to be rerouted to clear the Watt's linkage axle mounts?

Is there any difference between 3-channel and 4-channel cars in the hard line routing on the axles tubes? I know there will be an extra rubber line from the chassis to the axle on the 4 channel cars, but is that only different at the center?

[Sam Strano]

Sam,

I can see how the center pivot is adjustable up and down, which allows for roll center height adjustment. Is there also an allowance for vertical adjustment of the axle side of the horizontal links? I believe that optimum benefit of the Watt's linkage occurs when both horizontal bars are parallel to each other and to the axle and the vertical bar is perpendicular to these links when the car is sitting at ride height. If not, I think the non-optimal geometry has the potential to introduces scrub in either one or both turning directions.

Second, Do the rear brake lines which run along the axle need to be rerouted to clear the Watt's linkage axle mounts?

That adjustment depends solely on where you position the clamps and you can rotate them wherever you think you need them to be. Howvever if you check out some of the vids and things on Youtube, you can see them in action. Here's the thing, because there are two rods and they are equal length, they work opposite of each other. When one shortens, the other lengthens, in effect. This one video shows how it works in action (no drawing, real pictures): http://youtube.com/watch?v=-J4xkHuP7QY

[sgarnett]

The links should be set up to be equal in length. They should also, ideally be set up such that at ride height, the links are parallel and horizontal. However, as the suspension moves up and down from there, the Watts link still works as long as plenty of travel has been designed in.

So in practice, the main thing is to get the links horizontal, parallel, and equal in length at some point in the suspension travel, with the axle level. Moving the pivot up or down from there should still be OK. Now, you should be reasonable about it - don't set up the links with the suspension at full droop, but ....

The so-called "propeller" (aka bellcrank) should probably be vertical somewhere in the ballpark of halfway through the suspension travel just so you maintain plenty of travel. [probably wrong, see below]

It is important that the arms be horizontal when they are parallel (with the axle level), or there will be some unintended lateral movement as the suspension moves vertically.

In practice just set it up with the suspension loaded, the chassis and axle level, the links level and equal in length, and then verify that there is plenty of travel (ie that the in full droop the bellcrank doesn't reach horizontal).

This post has been edited by sgarnett: Jul 24 2008, 10:40 AM

[Major_Lee_Slow]

The you tube video isn't working.

All Watt's linkages do introduce scrub at their extreme travel point. However, depending on the length and ratio of the arms vs. the suspension travel of the axle, it may or may not be possible to get into that part of the curve with this system.

Just to make sure I completely understand the proper way to set up this system.
1. It appears that the axle mounts should be set so that they are parallel to ground to minimize the potential for binding during axle travel. (assuming the ground is flat and level) and that they should be mounted equal distance from the center line of the axle. This assumes that the watts linkage pivot is at the center line of the car and one wants the axle centered about the center line of the vehicle.
2. The two horizontal arms must be adjusted so that they are equal length. This is extremely important! If they are not equal length, then the benefit of the Watt's linkage may not be fully realized.
3. The vertical bar will not necessary be at 90 degrees to the horizontal bar at ride height (This will depend on the ride height of the vehicle and the roll center height setting)
4. Slide the center pivot up or down to to adjust the roll center and don't worry if the vertical bar is not at 90 degrees (as long as the horizontal bars are equal length and the axle mounts are properly located).

It would appear to me that a good starting point for the roll center would be at the middle of the axle because at this setting the linkages should be in there proper ride height alignment (parallel and 90) if everything is adjusted correctly (equal length parallel arms, the center pivot is centered on the vertical bar and the axle mounts are equal distant from the center pivot and the axle center). Since there really is not adjustment to the height of the axle mounts, it appears that the "ideal" alignment will only occur at this position. (Ideal meaning that both horizontal bars are perfectly parallel and the vertical bar is at exactly 90°)

My only concern,and this may be unfounded, is that the further the bars are away from "ideal" ride height alignment the system moves closer to the "scrubbing" part of the watt's linage curve.

[Sam Strano]

The video just worked for me. Try again. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) http://youtube.com/watch?v=-J4xkHuP7QY

[sgarnett]

Just to make sure I completely understand the proper way to set up this system.
1. It appears that the axle mounts should be set so that they are parallel to ground to minimize the potential for binding during axle travel. (assuming the ground is flat and level) and that they should be mounted equal distance from the center line of the axle. This assumes that the watts linkage pivot is at the center line of the car and one wants the axle centered about the center line of the vehicle.

No, the axle mounts should not be parallel to the ground. The links should be parallel to the ground when they are parallel with each other.

The video works fine for me, but it shows a setup with the pivot mounted on the axle instead of the chassis.With that setup, the roll center stays at a constant height relative to the ground instead of relative to the chassis CG.

This post has been edited by sgarnett: Jul 23 2008, 06:06 PM

[Major_Lee_Slow]

What I mean is that the "arms" of the axle mounts should be parallel to the ground. So they should stick straight back from the axle just like they do in the picture..

When I try watching the video I get a "We're sorry, this video is no longer available" It may be the firewall here at work, I'll have to try it when I get home.

[sgarnett]

What I mean is that the "arms" of the axle mounts should be parallel to the ground. So they should stick straight back from the axle just like they do in the picture.

Nope, look closer at the picture (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) The arms should not be level. The aluminum links should be level, and to accomplish that the driver's side mount will be angled upward and the passenger side will be angled downward (or vice-versa, except that would probably interfere with the exhaust).

This post has been edited by sgarnett: Jul 23 2008, 07:23 PM

[Major_Lee_Slow]

Ok, I see it now, they are angled up and down (Man my eyes are starting to get old). They must be angled up and down an equal amount so that the arms are angled equally from the center pivot along the center line of the car in order to maintain an equal distance from the pivot.

Ok, here's another question. So the arms are attached to the axle tubes, what keeps them from slipping along horizontal length of the tube? Just the normal force and friction of the axle clamps? Should that area of the axle be "prepped" before installation (i.e. all rust removed).

One would think that this might be better than the current design because the current design only loads the axle in one spot and this design loads the axle in two spots, thus better distributing the load. Right?

[Sam Strano]

Friction/clamping is what holds the watts in place on the axle. However, as someone mentioned there is no reason that someone couldn't tack weld just to be safe if they wanted.

In looking at the design of some others for S197 Mustangs (also a PHB/PHB brace car and in fact of the same weight and a PHB only about 1" longer than a F-body) I think the Fays2 design is better. Check out what they are selling for $999 in comparison: http://steeda.com/products/steeda_watts_link_s197.php How about Saleen's Watts? http://www.haneymotorsport.com/HMSstang/HM...smustanglrg.JPG Also for about $1k and uses the diff cover as the axle mount. I don't know about you, but I trust clamping on the axle tubes a lot more.

I suggest that a good search for Watts Link would start. But more specifically look for '05+ Mustang stuff, as they are very similar in rear suspension and weight. Hell even the rear springs are on the axle now (stock rate of about 130 btw). (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Sorry to say they have a leg up here on us due to numbers. There are a lot more Ford junkies than F-body ones, so despite the PHB arrangement being in place for 20 years from 1982-2002, it's just now that we are getting some of this stuff. I've been trying, but sometimes life intervenes. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[sgarnett]

They must be angled up and down an equal amount so that the arms are angled equally from the center pivot along the center line of the car in order to maintain an equal distance from the pivot.

Well, it probably does make sense to do the initial setup with the pivot on the centerline of the axle at ride height. After all the lengths and angles are correct, and the axle is centered properly, then you can move the pivot (roll center) height to the desired position. As you said, the angles should be equal too.

Then lower the axle to full droop, and if the bellcrank is nearly horizontal, lengthen both links by the same amount and recheck.

While the axle centering can be fine-tuned by adjusting the links, that will lead to one being longer than the other. For that reason, I would preset the links to the same length, and position the arm/clamps to get the axle as close to center as possible before changing the links. If done right the first time, there should be no reason to ever move the clamps.

Of course, the setup tricks will also get some fine tuning after we start getting a few installed (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

This post has been edited by sgarnett: Jul 23 2008, 11:57 PM

[sgarnett]

The so-called "propeller" (aka bellcrank) should probably be vertical somewhere in the ballpark of halfway through the suspension travel just so you maintain plenty of travel.

Oops, that's wrong.

The links will be at their "shortest" or most overlapping position when the pivot is at the axle centerline.

This post has been edited by sgarnett: Jul 24 2008, 12:15 PM

[sgarnett]

Second, Do the rear brake lines which run along the axle need to be rerouted to clear the Watt's linkage axle mounts?

Is there any difference between 3-channel and 4-channel cars in the hard line routing on the axles tubes? I know there will be an extra rubber line from the chassis to the axle on the 4 channel cars, but is that only different at the center?

At least on my 2001 4-channel car, I'm pretty sure the brake lines will need to be rerouted a little to make room for the bracket clamp. Hopefully they only need to be raised an 1/8" or so to make room for the clamp underneath. They may need to go a little higher temporarily to get the bracket inserted between the line and the axle.

Is it possible to get enough clearance by just loosening and/or modifying the brake line brackets, or will the hard lines have to be bent a little? If so, what's the best way to accomplish it?

[nape]

Is it possible to get enough clearance by just loosening and/or modifying the brake line brackets, or will the hard lines have to be bent a little? If so, what's the best way to accomplish it?

I usually bend them by hand. As long as you aren't a caveman you can feel when the tubing has had enough and is about to kink.

Mild steel is pretty forgiving. I buy lines when I need to and I've made 3rd gen lines fit a 4th gen rearend even though the 4th gen is 3"+ wider.

This post has been edited by nape: Jul 30 2008, 02:16 AM

[Sam Strano]

The brake lines are easily pushed around. It won't be any trouble to get the clamps on the axle under the lines.

[trackbird]

Yes, there are some posts missing. Yes, I moved them out of this thread. If anyone has any questions, please feel free to send ME a message.

Warning:

Brian, DO NOT keep messing around with upside down questions and such in a sponsor thread.

Thank you.

TB

Sorry about that Sam. Back to your regularly scheduled discussion.

[Sam Strano]

Appreciate it.

[ESPCamaro]

and I think I am 3rd or 4th....plus I don't care WHAT color it is as long as I can make it go fast.

(IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/2thumbs.gif)

[sgarnett]

Well, my mid-August test-n-tune has been cut from two days to one, and I'll miss the next event after that since my wife is having surgery. Maybe I should ship Fay a case of Full Throttle or Red Bull to help him pull the delivery date in a little (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Sam Strano]

Just spoke to Fay2 regarding an update. Things are progressing and the estimated time to ship is now around 2 weeks. No actually date at this time. Parts are being cuts, jigs are made. When I get a more specific time and we get to around 1 week before I will begin to process the pre-orders. It takes time for the money to get transferred and Fays2 will want paid, so in order to get them out ASAP we will process orders when the build begins.

And here's the better news: Black is a go and will happen!

[sgarnett]

Will black be available at the same time as red, or will it be a later batch (and if so, how much later)? With availability slipping by a week or so (not that it's much of a slip, I'm not complaining), it sounds like I'm probably going to miss my window of opportunity for testing. If so, I may be back to caring [a little] about the color.

"POR-15 Patch" (the thick goop in a squeeze tube, available in any color as long as it's black) works great for permanently touching up powder coat scrapes and has become my new favorite color (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

This post has been edited by sgarnett: Aug 2 2008, 10:29 AM

[Sam Strano]

Making both colors in the initial batch, but the sooner I know if you care the better so we don't end up say selling all the black ones before you decide. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[JimMueller]

Doing some more thinking on this... I was under the impression that you, Sam, didn't care for lowering the rear roll center because it required too stiff of rear springs. Can someone help me understand how lowering the rear roll center via the the watts link works better than lowering the rrc with the lower phb brackets method?

[sgarnett]

Making both colors in the initial batch, but the sooner I know if you care the better so we don't end up say selling all the black ones before you decide. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Well if there's no difference in the schedule, it's an easy choice. I'll take black (sending note) (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

This post has been edited by sgarnett: Aug 4 2008, 12:07 PM

[John_D.]

I think Sam likes the Watts link because it's more consistent (left vs. right).

It has the added advantage (for those who want to go this way) of being able to lower the roll center.

[Sam Strano]

Doing some more thinking on this... I was under the impression that you, Sam, didn't care for lowering the rear roll center because it required too stiff of rear springs. Can someone help me understand how lowering the rear roll center via the the watts link works better than lowering the rrc with the lower phb brackets method?

You can do as you wish. Frankly if you want to lower the roll center you can, and you can do so it more finite steps this way. Don't confused adjustment range with what I might recommend. It's an adjustment that is available, and might be useful to you. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The adjustment isn't as coarse (small changes in rc height are available in 1/2" drops).

Mostly I'm doing it for my own personal car to eliminate the arc of the PHB and the fact the roll center moves up and down depending on which way you are turning. I'm not doing it to drop my roll center way down...

[Sam Strano]

Newest update....
All the tubing is cut and ready to be welded and all the other parts are ready to be put together. We're just waiting for all the parts to be assembled and powdercoated. The schedule is a little behind, but I'm told we're looking like (and hoping for) middle to late next week for shipment.

[Sam Strano]

Trying to for a new update.... Now have instructions (and detailed ones too). Pushing as hard as I can on this--I'll keep you posted.

[Sam Strano]

Good news:

"Sam,
I just met with the welder, sandblaster and powder coater.
Welding is promised for Tuesday morning.
We are FINALLY!!!!!!!!!!!! on schedule to ship next Friday."

That's a quote from Fays2.

[Rampant]

Good news:

"Sam,
I just met with the welder, sandblaster and powder coater.
Welding is promised for Tuesday morning.
We are FINALLY!!!!!!!!!!!! on schedule to ship next Friday."

That's a quote from Fays2.

Has there been any talk of one for a 12 bolt yet? I know it was mentioned but for a later date.

I will be seriously looking at one for mine.

I can get dimensions if they need them and photos. The car is just a roller right now waiting to put the 36mm front bar on you sent me. Well it is actually waiting for the motor.

[tpunk]

Good news:

"Sam,
I just met with the welder, sandblaster and powder coater.
Welding is promised for Tuesday morning.
We are FINALLY!!!!!!!!!!!! on schedule to ship next Friday."

That's a quote from Fays2.

Has there been any talk of one for a 12 bolt yet? I know it was mentioned but for a later date.

I will be seriously looking at one for mine.

I can get dimensions if they need them and photos. The car is just a roller right now waiting to put the 36mm front bar on you sent me. Well it is actually waiting for the motor.

I was under the impression that all that needed to be changed was the clamps for the axle housing. If this is so then I would think it would be easy for them to sell you the corresponding part if you measure it correctly.

I assume we can expect a review from you (Sam) pretty soon after you get this on your car right (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) . Also, I noticed that you said black will be an option on this first batch but will it continue to be an option later on? Doesn't really matter too much, just curious.

[Sam Strano]

The car the prototype was tested on has a 12-bolt in it.... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I've driven Mustangs with Watts Links in them (including the S197 cars that come stock with a PHB setup like the Camaro). I already know the difference. It will not be until a few weeks after Nationals until I can get personal testing done since my Camaro is currently apart and Nationals is the priority. However, I already know what to expect from past experience, which basically amounts to a more stable tail particularly over bumps, most consistent handling left vs. right since the roll center isn't rising and falling in different directions.

[Crazy Canuck]

will these work w/ a 9" ?

[Sam Strano]

The only thing that matters is the size of the axle tubes.... GM, 12-bolt, 9"... As long as the rear end is setup for a stock or stock replacement PHB, all I need to know is the OD of the axle tubes.

[Sam Strano]

And the latest update.........









Starting to ship out today. There is an aluminum spacer that wasn't completed on time. Fays2 is sending those out at their cost by 2-day air when they arrive (due next Tuesday). Because these are shipping ground freight the spacers and Watts Links should arrive at just about the same time.

[veinharvest]

Heh heh heh!
Let me know when you want to play with this at CPR, as I'm sure I won't be able to resist getting this on as soon as possible. Besides you'll be too busy to put yours on! (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif) May need to ..."Ahem"... Borrow... an "Old" set of tires..."ahem" for you to get a true test session though. Good luck this year.

[sgarnett]

Mine arrived today. The instruction book is very thorough, with lots of color photos.

The axle clamp/brackets seem to be sized for a 9" and/or 12 bolt, and there are split-tube steel shims included to presumably fit the smaller 10 bolt axle tubes. That's the one obvious detail missign from the instructions.

Also, the instructions specify reinstalling the passenger-side PHR and PHR brace bolts, installing the nuts loosely with Loctite, reinstalling the driver-side PHR brace bolts with Loctite, and then torquing them all. Personally, I'd just install the passenger side bolts but leave the nuts off or just temporarily thread them on dry and loose, then install and torque the driver-side bolts with Loctite, and then install and torque the passenger-side nuts with Loctite.

This post has been edited by sgarnett: Sep 4 2008, 12:34 PM

[Cr0usEEE]

I got mine yesterday...and gone through the instruction manual before installing tonight. I have two questions.

1) What spacer is required for the "stock" rear sway bar? (1st page in manual)
2) It does not specifically say...but should the rear axle/car be on the ground during install?? I mean have the rear up on ramps instead or supporting the car on jack stands from the frame rails. My impression is that ramps is the ticket but it is not called out in the instructions.

[shortbus]

I got mine yesterday...and gone through the instruction manual before installing tonight. I have two questions.

1) What spacer is required for the "stock" rear sway bar? (1st page in manual)
2) It does not specifically say...but should the rear axle/car be on the ground during install?? I mean have the rear up on ramps instead or supporting the car on jack stands from the frame rails. My impression is that ramps is the ticket but it is not called out in the instructions.

It does not say drive on lift preferred?

[Cr0usEEE]

I got mine yesterday...and gone through the instruction manual before installing tonight. I have two questions.

1) What spacer is required for the "stock" rear sway bar? (1st page in manual)
2) It does not specifically say...but should the rear axle/car be on the ground during install?? I mean have the rear up on ramps instead or supporting the car on jack stands from the frame rails. My impression is that ramps is the ticket but it is not called out in the instructions.

It does not say drive on lift preferred?

It does say drive on lift preferred...but then also it doesnt say at what position the axle should be relative to the body. Should it be at nominal? Fully compressed? Fully droop? I know what it should be at but the instructions don't specifically say it. What is the impact if you install the axle at full droop?? The lateral bars will be parallel throughout the travel range so it really shouldn't matter.

[shortbus]

You'll want those bars to be level when the car is sitting on the ground. So, using a drive on lift it will be easier to install this while thing.

I suppose you can install it all with the car all jacked up... but when you are done those bars should be level.

This post has been edited by shortbus: Sep 4 2008, 02:35 PM

[Sam Strano]

The spacer to move the swaybar down a bit is what is being made and was to be shipped out separately. I can check on the status of that, or if you are in a hurry (not sure when I can make the call), a call directly to Fays2 ought to get you the update. Just let him know you are one of my customers.....

Ideally installation is to be with the suspension loaded. However if you have to lift the car, that's fine, but everything needs to be checked and retightened with the car @ ride height.

[sgarnett]

What's the recommended maintenance for the bellcrank (aka "propellor") bearing? It doesn't appear to be sealed. Shoot in some WD-40 every now and then, or some aerosol lithium grease, or ???

[v7guy]

I was under the impression that Sam had always said it was a fruitless venture to change the rear roll center and had even commented on several occasions that the PHR lowering from UE was a waste of time given the insignificant amount that the rear shifted from side to side even in a stock configuration... especially in a soft suspension.

Has something changed?

Is this product a result of consumer demand?

Are there any real world experiences as far as performance improvements go?



I've read the books, I know the theory, but theory and real life doesn't always match up.

[sgarnett]

I suspect Sam is busily preparing for Nats, or already on the road by now.

This is an attempt at an unbiased overview. I'm not trying to put words into Sam's (or Jason's) mouth, but if you want his full opinion on the matter (in his own words), it's already out there to search for.

Sam has said that it is a fruitless venture to lower the roll center, and as recently as a few weeks ago (a page or so back in this thread) his opinion hadn't changed. The Watts link does allow lowering the roll center easily, but that's not the reason Sam is promoting it. In fact, he asked Fay to ensure that there was enough range of adjustment to avoid lowering the roll center.

Sam's objection (ie the drawback of lowering the roll center) is primarily that lowering the roll center requires stiffening the rear springs and/or swaybar. This reduces "mechanical grip" (the static ability of the car to maintain the weight distribution between tires on pavement that isn't perfectly flat). The stiffer suspension (all else being equal) also causes the axle to skip around more when crossing bumps, potentially reducing even straight-line traction.

Jason contends that he can address the bump handling with different shock valving.

The advantage of lowering the roll center is that it keeps the handling balance more consistent through the turn, and reduces jacking (which is a bigger issues with swing arm suspensions, but still applies somewhat to live axles). Weight transfers much faster through the PHR (or Watts) than through the shocks and springs. Lowering the rear roll center lowers the PHR/Watts contribution to the total weight transfer, which reduces it's ability to dynamically change the handling.

The advantage of the Watts link setup is also that it helps keep the handling more consistent (though not in the same way), even at the original "approximate" roll center height, because it keeps the roll center from moving around as much relative the chassis center of gravity.

The Watts link does reduce lateral movement of the chassis. Besides any effect on handling, lateral movement increases tire rubbing issues.

Lowering the rear roll center, whether by lowering the PHR or lowering the Watts pivot, will increase lateral movement and rubbing, though the Watts link is starting with an advantage in that regard.

So, Sam's argument against lowering PHR (or Watts pivot) has never had anything to do with "the insignificant amount that the rear shifted from side to side" because lowering the PHR does not reduce lateral movement at all. He has argued that lowering the PHR (specifically on the fbody) will increase lateral movement even more than is inherent to lowering the roll center anyway due to increased flexing of the long brackets.

Outside the context of PHR lowering, Sam has also argued for the importance of using a very strong, rigid PHR with rod ends to minimize lateral movement. So, I don't think he has ever meant to downplay the significance of controlling lateral movement.

Sam has argued that the transitional handling balance changes due to the relatively high roll center in the stock-like configuration do not cause a significant driving problem. In other words, he is arguing that he can adequately address transitional stability with his setups.

As I said, this is just intended to be a summary (OK, a verbose "summary") of the different issues and points of view, not an argument for any particular point of view. I don't think anyone disagrees on the physics/geometry involved with the various topics. I think all the disagreement lies in how much importance to assign to each topic.

Now, the fact remains that if you lower the roll center significantly, you will need to buy a new set of (at least) a new rear bar and springs. Sam sells any springs you may want, and up to at least a 25mm solid rear bar (ST). While he certainly doesn't recommend them, he does sell most of the parts you need if you want to try it.

The Watts link will make it fairly painless to experiment a little. Springs and bars are relatively cheap, and if you change your mind before they get too rusty and scraped up, they are fairly easy to resell. If you lower the roll center enough to need custom shocks, that does complicate the situation a bit, though.

The Watts also allows movement of the roll center by as little as half an inch. That opens the possibility of small tweaks for tuning, even if you aren't going to completely overhaul your suspension package for a large change..

For example, lowering the roll center with no other changes will increase the understeer tendency of the car. Aging tires or a slick surface tend to increase the oversteer tendency of the car. So, lowering the Watts pivot by 1/2" or so as your tires get old or when heading to a notoriously slick site could be a very convenient option. Heck, it should only take a few minutes to move the pivot using ramps (with no further adjustment needed if it was set up properly to begin with), so even a quick adjustment for weather change is feasible.

This post has been edited by sgarnett: Sep 8 2008, 12:50 PM

[shortbus]

Sean, that was a most excellent reply. Kudos to you.

[Sam Strano]

Wow. Thanks to Sean for taking the time to go through things. And he's almost 100% right on.

Up to now dropping the RC via a PHB height was done with very coarse adjustments. You got to weld on brackets to the body and meant the first setting down was a significant change in RC height, and then from there the further changes were also a big coarse. This setup allows smaller (and easier) changes in height.

I'm not a fan of the road-kill scraping PHB height and the on the ground RC. Years ago I messed with PHB brackets that allowed adjustment (via a slider). But couldn't make it work, and scraped the idea because in the meantime I got the car more settled via shock adjustments, etc.

And just because it has adjustments for rc height doesn't mean you have to use it.

[shortbus]

Soo..... anyone get theres? Anyone put it on?

Any problems?

Any feedback?

[Cr0usEEE]

Soo..... anyone get theres? Anyone put it on?

Any problems?

Any feedback?

In the process now Brian...and I have been working on it with squarrnet.

[sgarnett]

What's the recommended maintenance for the bellcrank (aka "propellor") bearing? It doesn't appear to be sealed. Shoot in some WD-40 every now and then, or some aerosol lithium grease, or ???

I just spoke with Jim Fay. He said the bearing actually is sealed, and since it doesn't move much in operation, there's also very little wear. No maintenance is required.

As a few people have already discovered, the axle clamp shims that were originally shipped in the kits are too thin for the 10 bolt tubes. A few people have already received and verified new shims, and they were shipped out for everyone else (or maybe everyone that didn't specify a 9" or 12 bolt fitment) on Monday (9/8/08).

[veinharvest]

Soo..... anyone get theres? Anyone put it on?

Mine's on! ---a six pack, one f-word, and one cracked knuckle = Easy. Just need big wrenches.
Now to play. Too bad My tires are sheeeeit.

[rmackintosh]

Soo..... anyone get theres? Anyone put it on?

Mine's on! ---a six pack, one f-word, and one cracked knuckle = Easy. Just need big wrenches.
Now to play. Too bad My tires are sheeeeit.

THIS THREAD IS WORTHLESS WITHOUT PICS..... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)

[slowcamaro]

Soo..... anyone get theres? Anyone put it on?

Mine's on! ---a six pack, one f-word, and one cracked knuckle = Easy. Just need big wrenches.
Now to play. Too bad My tires are sheeeeit.

THIS THREAD IS WORTHLESS WITHOUT PICS..... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)

Awaits pics of bloody hands, and empty beer cans....

[veinharvest]

Drove about 50 miles today in about a five mile radius of my house. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) So far I'm really smiling. I think this is going to work well. I was on nittos (instead of hoosiers) Figured I'd better pull in before someone called the state police. First time I liked the long response time around here.
I absolutely Can't wait to get it back on a track. Nelson ledges had two day open track this weekend and BMWCCA has a week long school /octoberfest at Watkins Glen - THIS WEEK. Damn this lack of time off.

THIS THREAD IS WORTHLESS WITHOUT PICS..... (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/ph34r.gif)

I was going to paste some nasty hand picture and say it didn't really hurt, but here's the site. Don't want to offend anyone......yet.

http://www.irishambulance.net/gallery/trauma/machineHand
Just need to put some ice on it.

[killer_bluebird]

Drove about 50 miles today in about a five mile radius of my house. (IMG:http://www.frrax.com/rrforum/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) So far I'm really smiling. I think this is going to work well. I was on nittos (instead of hoosiers) Figured I'd better pull in before someone called the state police. First time I liked the long response time around here.
I absolutely Can't wait to get it back on a track. Nelson ledges had two day open track this weekend and BMWCCA has a week long school /octoberfest at Watkins Glen - THIS WEEK. Damn this lack of time off.

If you do come to Nelson Ledges let me know I like to come down and check it out.

[shortbus]

I have done an autocross and 6+ hours at Putnam Park. On both Hoosiers and some pretty sticky streets.

I lowered the pinion 1/2 inch.. one hole with no other changes.

The car is manageable in the wet, and dry. The one hole made a positive difference I think.

The clamps did not move. Everything looks fine at safe. Cheers.

[ESPCamaro]

I have done an autocross and 6+ hours at Putnam Park. On both Hoosiers and some pretty sticky streets.

I lowered the pinion 1/2 inch.. one hole with no other changes.

The car is manageable in the wet, and dry. The one hole made a positive difference I think.

The clamps did not move. Everything looks fine at safe. Cheers.

Nice to see some new developments for these cars....
Helps to solidify my point that...............................

I really don't see the 4th gen F-body going out of favor in ESP for some time.......As it has been mentioned in other threads that the WRX or new Mustang would be the best cars.


A S/P tangent sorry.

[Applejack]

I've been running my '99 in ESP for the last year. I didn't want to change to the Watts right before Nationals this year, but I'm planning on making the change over the winter.

Here's a G-G diagram of three drivers in my car from the East Course in Topeka. The upper LH section of the 'circle' is typical of what the DL1 has been telling me all year. That is that the car puts power down coming out of corners better out of left hand corners than while turning right.

(IMG:http://www.wormtech.com/albums/Kolk1/Watts_G_G.jpg)

To back-up the trend I'm showing here, I've seen some A-sedan data from a local 4-th gen and it shows the same thing. I've seen the same thing in ESP Mustangs with panhard bars as well.

My theory is that the Watts will fill in the blue area of the 'circle'. Expanding the performance envelope can only be an improvement and making it mirror the right side of the 'circle' is probably what people are responding to when they find it easier to drive. This trend is, I think, the evidence of the CG and RC height getting closer while rolling one direction and getting farther apart when rolling in the other direction. Since a Watts will eliminate that difference it all seems to make sense.

If anyone has 'after'data once they've installed their Watts it'd be great to have a look. I'll post mine when I get it, but it won't be until April or May.

This post has been edited by Applejack: Oct 2 2008, 02:13 AM

[shortbus]

That there is an awesome little graphic.

I think there will be/are improvements in the lower left too. Just judging by the absence of data in the that quadrant.

I do think the car acted well. My buddy drove the car in the wet for 30 mins at Putnam and I did roughly 2 hours in the wet.

We both agreed that the car was better. (I needed the second opinion because, as most of you know already, I am pretty insensitive. Plus, I lack the cool computerized toys to tell me such things like Jason does.)

[Applejack]

The lack of lower left points may be due to the course layout. I haven't noticed that area being sub par through this season.

[Cr0usEEE]

The lack of lower left points may be due to the course layout. I haven't noticed that area being sub par through this season.

Jason,

You can try my car at the Detroit Oct 19 event...can you hook up your little toy to my car?

This post has been edited by Cr0usEEE: Oct 2 2008, 02:31 PM